I'v said it before, there are soo many people here who post almost every single news bit about what the Palestinians do but only a handful who post about the other side.
No kidding! That's because compared to the boat load of things the Palestinians do there are only a handful of things the Isreal's do, and those pale in comparison.
They defend them self in the most humane way possible. Israel is by no means passive, but if they acted how the rest of the world want?s them to there would be no Israel. The are facing an enemy who will only be satisfied when Israel is pushed into the sea.
You may not like it, but there can be no compromise when you are dealing with someone who will only be satisfied with your total destruction.
Edit: fixed spelling
According to israeli sources, there have been more palestinian noncombatants killed than israeli noncombatants. The intent behind the deaths may be different but there are more palestinian innocents dying.
Ok let me make a list for you
Israel creates settlements in Palestinian lands, the people who move in those settlements are the extreme zionists who belive that Israel should own all the original land of Israel. The people in the settlements control over 40% of the Palestinian land even though the settlements take up far less space. Those settlements need roads, thats why there are roads that go all over the land that only Israelis are allowed to use. The settlements are protected by militery force and also the roads. Israel controls the water supplies the Palestinians use. There are hundreds of checkpoints all over the west bank and the gaza strip that take hours or even days to get through so its impossible for the Palestinians to live a normal live. When the IDF was going house to house searching for suspected terrorists few months ago they went through the walls instead of using the doors, they didnt care if there were personal belongings in the way. There are thousands of people homeless because the IDF destroyed their homes. Children cant go to school in many places because many of the schools the UN runs there have been destroyed. Even when there are peaceful protests the IDF uses live ammunition on the crowd. Few months ago the IDF was shooting at ambulances when they were trying to rescue the wounded, they also stopped medical people from reaching the wounded so they bled out to death on the streets. Everyone is a target.
This is called "state terrorism"
What the Palestinians do
Civilians are targeted, no matter where they are. Suicide bombers are used. Bombs are created so they make as much damage as possible.
This is called "terrorism"
Why is one worse than the other, both accomplish nothing and I hardly call it what Israel does "humane":disgust:
Bleh. Many of these volunteers are from fruity-loop organizations like Amnesty International who are extremely anti-police, anti-war, anti-killing-for-any-reason, and they wouldn't acknowledge a justified killing if it saved their life.
It never ceases to amaze me.
Someone posts an article showing the horrible things that Israeli soldiers do, and everyone jumps on him for being anti semitic. Hell, some idiots even claim that the general attitude in America is anti semitic. Those damn anti semitic liberals!
The fact is that Americans in general don't have a clue about the conflict. All they hear on the news is that Palestinian suicide bombers are killing Israeli civilians. You seldom hear about the Israelis' attacks on Palestinians and the civilian casualties from the "liberal media", and when you do, it's watered down.
That's why it's so shocking that an Israeli soldier killed a boy, and why so many people claim it's BS just so they can protect their idea of the world. It's just like the people who claim the holocaust was made up by the Jews.
If only we had a buzzword for people who hate Arabs..
FYI, there is a growing movement of Jews against what is happening in Israel. It's called Tikkun and here is the website.
Someone posts an article showing the horrible things that Israeli soldiers do, and everyone jumps on him for being anti semitic. Hell, some idiots even claim that the general attitude in America is anti semitic. Those damn anti semitic liberals!
The fact is that Americans in general don't have a clue about the conflict. All they hear on the news is that Palestinian suicide bombers are killing Israeli civilians. You seldom hear about the Israelis' attacks on Palestinians and the civilian casualties from the "liberal media", and when you do, it's watered down.
That's why it's so shocking that an Israeli soldier killed a boy, and why so many people claim it's BS just so they can protect their idea of the world. It's just like the people who claim the holocaust was made up by the Jews.
If only we had a buzzword for people who hate Arabs..
FYI, there is a growing movement of Jews against what is happening in Israel. It's called Tikkun and here is the website.
ThePresence
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What is this Palestinian land? Is that like a country or something? Or do you mean the former Turkish, British, Jordanian land?
That's only there to protect Israelis from bombs and shooting attacks. If there never would have been any of those for the past, oh, 20 odd years, then you wouldn't have any checkpoints. They brought it on themselves. Of course there are innocent Palestinians who suffer because of these probelms, but whatcha gonna do? Let more innocent Israelis die? Why should the innocent Palestinians be any more important than the innocent Israelis?
CRY ME A FREAKING RIVER! The poor personal belongings (insert very sarcastic hysterical sobbing). So the Israeli soldiers should put their lives at risk, by going through the doors, because of some "personal belongings". How typical.
Blame the terrorists.
That is a bald-faced lie, I dont care how many links you show me. Being a former IDF soldier, I have personal knowledge of IDF teqniques. That is a lie.
Oh, the same ambulances that were transporting wanted terrorists and bombs through the Israeli blockades? Those? Sorry, I dont have any links to show you. Just personal conversations with friends of mine that were serving on those blockades.
Well put.
I shudder to think what your preception of "humane" is.
killing innocents is sad. Whether they are old, young, male or female makes no difference to me. I still don't know why the media or society discriminates between people. Humans are humans people. All are *should be* equal.
Anyways, this is a sad story. from the short excerpt i read, it was unjustified. Is the killing of Israelis justified, no way, but that doesn' thcange the fact that this is as unjustified as that. I do know that the Israelis have been on the receiving end of this stuff for the most part.
I hope the people of that region can come to terms with one another and find a solution. I also would hope that Muslims the throughout the world would find more civilized ways of dealing with tyranny. If they believe they are being oppressed, sobeit. They have every right to fight, but not with bombs or bullets. That will not bring long term peace or happiness.
I've said it before and here I'll say it again: have muslims ever heard of peace protests, sit ins, boycotts, etc., etc.? Why must they glamorize their so called 'shaheeds' (martyrs, i.e. suicide bombers these days)? If I am illiterate, poor, and weak and i decided to sacrifice my life in the name of... nothing, does that make me an honorable person all of a sudden? No, it makes me a dead fool.
Israel, Chechnya, India, Russia, Phillipines, Indonesia, the U.S., Spain, and China. Its all the same thing. The same people. Freedom is what they want, why can't they coexist in peace for Allahs sake? Must they live in their own isolationist societies?
Anyways, this is a sad story. from the short excerpt i read, it was unjustified. Is the killing of Israelis justified, no way, but that doesn' thcange the fact that this is as unjustified as that. I do know that the Israelis have been on the receiving end of this stuff for the most part.
I hope the people of that region can come to terms with one another and find a solution. I also would hope that Muslims the throughout the world would find more civilized ways of dealing with tyranny. If they believe they are being oppressed, sobeit. They have every right to fight, but not with bombs or bullets. That will not bring long term peace or happiness.
I've said it before and here I'll say it again: have muslims ever heard of peace protests, sit ins, boycotts, etc., etc.? Why must they glamorize their so called 'shaheeds' (martyrs, i.e. suicide bombers these days)? If I am illiterate, poor, and weak and i decided to sacrifice my life in the name of... nothing, does that make me an honorable person all of a sudden? No, it makes me a dead fool.
Israel, Chechnya, India, Russia, Phillipines, Indonesia, the U.S., Spain, and China. Its all the same thing. The same people. Freedom is what they want, why can't they coexist in peace for Allahs sake? Must they live in their own isolationist societies?
Originally posted by: ThePresence
What is this Palestinian land? Is that like a country or something? Or do you mean the former Turkish, British, Jordanian land?
That's only there to protect Israelis from bombs and shooting attacks. If there never would have been any of those for the past, oh, 20 odd years, then you wouldn't have any checkpoints. They brought it on themselves. Of course there are innocent Palestinians who suffer because of these probelms, but whatcha gonna do? Let more innocent Israelis die? Why should the innocent Palestinians be any more important than the innocent Israelis?
CRY ME A FREAKING RIVER! The poor personal belongings (insert very sarcastic hysterical sobbing). So the Israeli soldiers should put their lives at risk, by going through the doors, because of some "personal belongings". How typical.
Blame the terrorists.
That is a bald-faced lie, I dont care how many links you show me. Being a former IDF soldier, I have personal knowledge of IDF teqniques. That is a lie.
Oh, the same ambulances that were transporting wanted terrorists and bombs through the Israeli blockades? Those? Sorry, I dont have any links to show you. Just personal conversations with friends of mine that were serving on those blockades.
Well put.
I shudder to think what your preception of "humane" is.
Presence,
You were in the IDF? I thought you were an American. Are you a dual citizen? Did any members of your family make Aliyah, or were you born there? What unit where you in and when was your service?
ThePresence
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Yes, I was in the IDF for a period of time. I went to school in Israel, and my friends joined up, so I did too. I am a US citizen, and I'd rather not discuss citizenship issues here. Several relatives of mine made Aliyah, and I have two brothers studying there as we speak. I was in the Mishmeret hagvul about 4 1/2 years ago. There are those who wont classify Mishmeret Hagvul as IDF, but as far as anyone here is concerned, it's IDF.
Oh, so you were in the border police Mishmar HaGvul? Well if you want to call that the IDF, I guess that is your business but you may want to clarify it in this forum as some of the people here are not completely ignorant of Israel and will know the difference and thier are differences. Why claim to be something you are not? Just say you were in the Border Police, nothing to be ashamed of and we are not all too stupid to understand the differences. Where were you stationed? If it was a couple of years ago it was probably not in area A or B. I am also curious as to why you don't want to discuss citizenship issues you seem to be pretty bold and forceful about everything else making yourself out to be the absolute authority on the IDF and its current operational situation and use of force, almost as if you are hiding something, but again that is your business.
BTW: What was the composition of your BP units? Did you have a lot of Druze, Christians, Beduins etc.?
ThePresence
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I will not discuss where I was stationed. My citizenship issues are private, and I'd like to keep it that way. I'm sorry if that bothers you. I'm not an absolute authority on anything, but I do know a hell of alot more than most other people around here about the IDF, and a sh|tload more than these "links" know. I have friends serving there now. I know the stress put upon sparing innocent life in training. I dont know what you think I'm "hiding".
Sorry, I am naturally curious and it sets off my red flags when someone says they are one thing and they were actually not. I had you pegged for BP, or NP, or maybe GSS or something, you sounded a lot like most of the BP guys I know in terms of attitude.
ThePresence
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What did I say I am that I am not? Do you mean when I said IDF? Find me 5 people on this board that know the difference between Gvulies and Chayalim please. If it's an issue to you, fine.
Well they might not know the words, but most of them would understand the difference between a soldier and a policemen, and if they didn't they might GASP: take the time to learn something more about Israel and it's security and defense services. Those two groups do have different roles, procedures, and outlooks. Forcing a soldier to be a policeman and vice versa almost never works. That could be applicable in the current situation/discussion.
ThePresence
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Perhaps you should learn a bit more about the Mishmeret Hagvul, and how they work together with the Tzahal. Hardly "policemen" although they do have some of those duties. The regular Mishtarah is there for most of that.
I don't understand how you can justify destruction of schools because of what terrorists do. Defense is one thing, retaliation is another. The whole world seems to have forgotten the fact that blood vengeance has no place in the modern world.
Oh I do understand that, but you must also realize that the special circumstances that both the BP and the IDF are placed into in the territories can lead to just the sort of event described in this thread. To state that all accounts of the use of live ammunition against unarmed demonstrators who were not a threat to the forces in place is a bald face lie is a true repudiation of the facts on the ground. It is no better than the Palestinian claims of a massacre in Jenin. Remember that the protection of Israel and the suppression of terrorists and to some extent of the entire Palestinian population can not in the end be a pretty, moral, or bloodless activity. I can not claim that the shooting of unarmed Palestinians for a variety of reasons is moral or justifiable, but I will not deny that it is done and you must know that it is maybe not in your experience, but in these extrordinary times it is certainly happening.
ThePresence
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Who's facts? What some woman said? Like I said, I know the stress put on sparing innocents in training, and I know that that is not IDF practice. He said that "even when there are peaceful protests, the IDF uses live ammunition on crowds". I repeat, that is not true.
Does this woman have the military training that the soldier has? Is she able to recognize a potential threat like he is? Did she even have the same line of sight as he did? I dont know how you can claim that it's "certainly" happening.
EDIT: How many peaceful protests have you seen in the territories?
Also, I want to clarify for those who may think I was misrepresenting myself, I was not. The lines between Mishmar Hagvul and actual Tzahal are so blurry, that to outsiders they are almost invisible. The line is a really, really fine one, and it's an invisible line in many places.
I know this dont matter squat to you, but to the rest
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020922/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_7093
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