Soldier killed boy in cold blood, say British volunteers

[Czar]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020925/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_settlement_2

something new

New Jewish Settlement Established
Wed Sep 25, 4:41 AM ET
By RAMIT PLUSHNICK-MASTI, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM (AP) - A new Jewish settlement with 14 homes has been established in the heart of the West Bank, settlers said Wednesday, at the start of a day of festivities to be attended by Israeli legislators.

Successive Israeli governments, including that of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon ( news - web sites), have said they would expand settlements to accommodate natural population growth, but not establish new ones on land claimed by the Palestinians for a future state.

 

[darren]

the israelis are doing they're best to defend themselves against dangerous militants.

those dangerous militants are defending themselves against dangerous occupiers who have taken their land.

 

[Torghn]

Originally posted by: darren
the israelis are doing they're best to defend themselves against dangerous militants. those dangerous militants are defending themselves against dangerous occupiers who have taken their land.

And we all know why their land is occupied, they (or at least their former governments, whom they supported) brought this upon them selves. If they would just leave the Israeli's alone there wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Gaard]

<<Who's facts? What some woman said? Like I said, I know the stress put on sparing innocents in training, and I know that that is not IDF practice. He said that "even when there are peaceful protests, the IDF uses live ammunition on crowds". I repeat, that is not true.>>
Would you call it a lie if he had said..."even when there are peaceful protests, the IDF has used live ammunition on crowds"?


<<What did I say I am that I am not? Do you mean when I said IDF? Find me 5 people on this board that know the difference between Gvulies and Chayalim please. If it's an issue to you, fine. >>
If they're the same thing that's cool, but if it's apples and oranges it's not right to say you're one and not the other just because people wouldn't know the difference. If your intention is just to keep things simple to understand about your participation in Israel that's one thing, but if your intention is to add crediblility to your opinion by deceiving people that's another.

 

[justint]

Originally posted by: Gaard
<<Who's facts? What some woman said? Like I said, I know the stress put on sparing innocents in training, and I know that that is not IDF practice. He said that "even when there are peaceful protests, the IDF uses live ammunition on crowds". I repeat, that is not true.>>
Would you call it a lie if he had said..."even when there are peaceful protests, the IDF has used live ammunition on crowds"?


<<What did I say I am that I am not? Do you mean when I said IDF? Find me 5 people on this board that know the difference between Gvulies and Chayalim please. If it's an issue to you, fine. >>
If they're the same thing that's cool, but if it's apples and oranges it's not right to say you're one and not the other just because people wouldn't know the difference. If your intention is just to keep things simple to understand about your participation in Israel that's one thing, but if your intention is to add crediblility to your opinion by deceiving people that's another.

Gaard,
Exactly my points. Thank you.

Justin

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Gaard
<<Who's facts? What some woman said? Like I said, I know the stress put on sparing innocents in training, and I know that that is not IDF practice. He said that "even when there are peaceful protests, the IDF uses live ammunition on crowds". I repeat, that is not true.>>
Would you call it a lie if he had said..."even when there are peaceful protests, the IDF has used live ammunition on crowds"?


<<What did I say I am that I am not? Do you mean when I said IDF? Find me 5 people on this board that know the difference between Gvulies and Chayalim please. If it's an issue to you, fine. >>
If they're the same thing that's cool, but if it's apples and oranges it's not right to say you're one and not the other just because people wouldn't know the difference. If your intention is just to keep things simple to understand about your participation in Israel that's one thing, but if your intention is to add crediblility to your opinion by deceiving people that's another.

I dont intend to decieve anyone. I've said before that I was with the Mishmar Gevul and no one knew what I was talking about. My intention is so that people can understand that I did serve there, and I do have an understanding of this situation that most other people do not. Truth is, that they're not apples and oranges at all, they have lots in common, they work together all the time, and recieve lots of the same training. If anyone misunderstood me, I'm sorry. However, I did not intend to mislead anyone, and I dont think I did.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

As far as I'm concerned, these people are child-killers, whether or not they were aiming at the boy.

This line totally disqualifies this reporter as a halfway credible source. What does she mean by "people"? Jews? The soldiers? Seems to me like ONE soldier did this and she makes a blanket statement about "people."

 

[Moonbeam]

I got into a fight with my neighbor yesterday. I was actually in the fight and believe you me, he's an asshole and it his fault.

 

[Torghn]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I got into a fight with my neighbor yesterday. I was actually in the fight and believe you me, he's an asshole and it his fault.

I don't belive anything YOU say anymore.

 

[justint]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I got into a fight with my neighbor yesterday. I was actually in the fight and believe you me, he's an asshole and it his fault.

WTH are you talking about?

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I got into a fight with my neighbor yesterday. I was actually in the fight and believe you me, he's an asshole and it his fault.

You sure you weren't just making sure nobody came into the yard while your friend fought the neighbor.

 

[Moonbeam]

justint, I'm the worlds foremost living expert on what an asshole my neighbor is and you can take everything I say about him to the bank because there's nobody closer to the situation than me and my attorney, of course, who is trying to get these ridiculous assault charges dismissed.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
justint, I'm the worlds foremost living expert on what an asshole my neighbor is and you can take everything I say about him to the bank because there's nobody closer to the situation than me and my attorney, of course, who is trying to get these ridiculous assault charges dismissed.

Haha, so true... good POV.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
justint, I'm the worlds foremost living expert on what an asshole my neighbor is and you can take everything I say about him to the bank because there's nobody closer to the situation than me and my attorney, of course, who is trying to get these ridiculous assault charges dismissed.

I assume this is directed at me somehow? I am not the world foremost living expert on anything. I did live in Israel for a number of years, and I did serve there (Mishmar Hagvul!). I do feel that I am entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is based on knowledge and based on things that I've seen and experienced. So am I biased like you are against your neighbor? Hell yes. I am biased, and thats quite obvious. I am not an impartial outsider. But I'm biased for a reason. I know what goes on there. You know from reading the papers and watching the news. If this wasn't directed at me and I misunderstood, please disregard.

EDIT: And yes, I'd expect you to know more about your neighbor, how he operates and how he fights, than me - who just read about this fight in the paper.

 

[Moonbeam]

Presence quote: But I'm biased for a reason. I know what goes on there.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My point exactly. Jeez

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Presence quote: But I'm biased for a reason. I know what goes on there.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My point exactly. Jeez

Fine. But my point remains that I've lived there and experienced what you just read about. I've had to stop crowds from entering shopping malls where suspected bombs were hidden. I've been to the bomb aftermath on Ben yehudah and in Mahane Yehudah. I've helped picked up body parts. I have a close friend who was shot and crippled for life. I've been to these so called "peaceful" demonstrations. I've receieved the "nazi" training. And what do you know? What you see on the news. Can you see a small difference?

 

[Moonbeam]

I see a huge difference in the relative advantages of each side. I can't tell one body part from another. My eyes don't work good for some reason.

 

[justint]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Presence quote: But I'm biased for a reason. I know what goes on there.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My point exactly. Jeez

Fine. But my point remains that I've lived there and experienced what you just read about. I've had to stop crowds from entering shopping malls where suspected bombs were hidden. I've been to the bomb aftermath on Ben yehudah and in Mahane Yehudah. I've helped picked up body parts. I have a close friend who was shot and crippled for life. I've been to these so called "peaceful" demonstrations. I've receieved the "nazi" training. And what do you know? What you see on the news. Can you see a small difference?

It would be nice if we could get a perspective from a Palestinian in the territories. I wonder if any of them read ATOT. I do agree Presence that you have a 1st hand perspective on events, but that does not make you right nor does it invalidate the perspectives/opinions of others.

 

[zengeos]

Originally posted by: justint

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Presence quote: But I'm biased for a reason. I know what goes on there.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My point exactly. Jeez

Fine. But my point remains that I've lived there and experienced what you just read about. I've had to stop crowds from entering shopping malls where suspected bombs were hidden. I've been to the bomb aftermath on Ben yehudah and in Mahane Yehudah. I've helped picked up body parts. I have a close friend who was shot and crippled for life. I've been to these so called "peaceful" demonstrations. I've receieved the "nazi" training. And what do you know? What you see on the news. Can you see a small difference?

It would be nice if we could get a perspective from a Palestinian in the territories. I wonder if any of them read ATOT. I do agree Presence that you have a 1st hand perspective on events, but that does not make you right nor does it invalidate the perspectives/opinions of others.

Yes you have a point. However, go back nearly 20 years.. BEFORE the Intifadeh. say...83/84...before Hamas and the extremists began their terror campaign.

West Bank Palestinian life...

Open border with Israel, many working in Israel proper. quality of life higher than most of the rest of the Middle east (excluding Israel proper) A very impressive technology transfer to Jordan, West Bank and Gaza of Israeli agriculture techniques and technology making agriculture in those areas much more efficient. Education levels higher than anywhere else in the Arab world. Life expectancy dramatically increased from pre 67 life expectancy.

Then came the Intifadeh. Peaceful coexistence turned into armed conflict and mistrust on both sides. Innocents on BOTH sides became the victims. The more innocents on both sides harmed the more extreme both sides became. But it wasn't until the Intifadeh that things changed drastically. Israel had to put up roadblocks; schools on the West Bank and Gaza taught hatred of the Israelis...schools that were funded in good measure BY Israel...like many of the hospitals.

Isralis have done their share of bad things since the Intifadeh began.. more and more extremist Jews have settled in the West Bank...often illegally.. Many more have settled in the legal settlements because the housing costs are so cheap. Israeli soldiers HAVE at times used excessive or uncalled for force. More often than not they have used apropriate force in response to violent demonstrations, but at times I think they have used excessive force. It's very true that Israeli military doctrine is based on use of appropriate force and the protection of the lives of innocents. BUT sometimes an individual may simply lose his or her temper. This has happened in all armed conflicts that I am aware of. To mak a blanket statement that ALL IF soldiers use excessive force is certainly one sided, IMO.

So...we could go back or years and ecades and blame one side or the other, but that gets us nowhere. Better to discuss how best to cool the situation down and work toward a true, viable peaceful settlement.

One other thing... If the worl expects Israel to sit still when *pushed* by terrorists they are naive and they are expecting more from Israel than they expect from themselves if THEY were in the same or similar situation. If pushed, Israel will push back....harder. This has been their policy from day one and it is unlikely to change. If, however, they are treated with respect and honesty, Israel will likely respond in kind. It's a 2-way street, but the Palestinians want more than Israel wants so they need to take the necessary first steps IMO. Israel only wants peaceful coexistence and other intangibles. The Palestinians, otoh, want far more. They want land..as much land as they can get. To expect Israel to give up tangible things in exchange for...NOTHING is naive. The onus is on the palestinians to PROVE they WILL live in peace beside Israel. Yes, Israel is *occupying the West Bank and Gaza. But if the Palestinians want the occupation to end they must do several things.

1) Come up with a government/representation that REALLY wants peace and is willing to take the difficult steps to prove they want peace.

2) Be willing to compromise on just what they will accept.

and other things, of course.

Israel must do several things...

1) Be willing to negotiate a just and lasting FAIR peace with the palestinian representatives

2) Be willing to compromise on just what they will accept. This includes withdrawal from illegal settlements and many *legal/planned* settlements.

So both need to compromise, but the onus is on the Palestinians to take the necessary first steps, not Israel.

Mark-

 

[Random Variable]

If Czar wants to believe that the Israelis want to do nothing but make the Palestinians suffer, I'm not going to argue with him.