Socialist America sinking

[PJABBER]

Originally posted by: ironwing

Originally posted by: PJABBER
And this is before the projected massive dual negative economic impacts of cap and trade and a nationalized health care system.

Nationalized health insurance would lift a huge burden off the economy by shifting resources away from the current wasteful private insurance system, resources that could be used for more productive activities. Nationalized health insurance would unleash an entrepreneurial wave as folks, full of ideas and purpose, could pursue their dreams of building new businesses without fear of medical bankruptcy. Nationalized health insurance would level the playing field for US manufacturers by removing the burden of employer-based insurance where employers who provide coverage are subsidizing those who don't and competing against foreign companies who don't have this burden.

Fail. The ObamaCare program as proposed has massive systemic impact on a wide variety of levels and produces very little in the way of actually providing access to quality medical care. It sets up/expands a hugely expensive government bureaucracy that will effectively eliminate private, and materially better, health coverage for all but the most wealthy who, like in Europe and other parts of the world, can afford to opt out. The financial burden on small business, which represents the great bulk of enterprise in the US, will be near catastrophic and by the Obama administration's own forecast, will result in a projected job loss approaching 5 million.

I just posted an article worth reading here:

ObamaCare - Runaway Train To Less Freedom, Higher Taxes And Rationed Care

Michael Leavitt, Secretary of Health and Human Services from 2005-09, former Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency and elected three times as the Governor of Utah, succinctly summarizes why this is a boondoggle approaching the level of the "stimulus."

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
If it's sinking, why are you guys staying on a sinking ship?

More empty rhetoric from the right wing.

Someone has to be there to take it from you.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: ironwing

Originally posted by: PJABBER
And this is before the projected massive dual negative economic impacts of cap and trade and a nationalized health care system.

Nationalized health insurance would lift a huge burden off the economy by shifting resources away from the current wasteful private insurance system, resources that could be used for more productive activities. Nationalized health insurance would unleash an entrepreneurial wave as folks, full of ideas and purpose, could pursue their dreams of building new businesses without fear of medical bankruptcy. Nationalized health insurance would level the playing field for US manufacturers by removing the burden of employer-based insurance where employers who provide coverage are subsidizing those who don't and competing against foreign companies who don't have this burden.

Fail. The ObamaCare program as proposed has massive systemic impact on a wide variety of levels and produces very little in the way of actually providing access to quality medical care. It sets up/expands a hugely expensive government bureaucracy that will effectively eliminate private, and materially better, health coverage for all but the most wealthy who, like in Europe and other parts of the world, can afford to opt out. The financial burden on small business, which represents the great bulk of enterprise in the US, will be near catastrophic and by the Obama administration's own forecast, will result in a projected job loss approaching 5 million.

I just posted an article worth reading here:

ObamaCare - Runaway Train To Less Freedom, Higher Taxes And Rationed Care

Michael Leavitt, Secretary of Health and Human Services from 2005-09, former Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency and elected three times as the Governor of Utah, succinctly summarizes why this is a boondoggle approaching the level of the "stimulus."

I said nationalized health insurance, not Obama's plan. Obama is making the same mistake Clinton did trying to save the private health insurance industry while providing universal coverage and therefore will remain grossly inefficeint and expensive. Go single payer and feed them fish heads. Or we could stick with what we got and continue down the path to financial ruin as an ever greater percentage of our GDP is sucked up by a failed private system.

 

[JKing106]

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Gotta love anybody who says they agree with Buchanan. If anything it just proves we are becoming a 3rd world country when it comes to mental illnesses.

You have it exactly backwards - which explains why people voted for Obama when he was obviously a radical whose heart beats in synch with Rev Wright. Now he wages a war on prosperity, and seeks to dismantle the structure of economy right in front of peoples faces. Obama resembles a banana leader like his buddy Chavez. The celebrity election that was all form and no substance was our first banana republic election. Obama spun fairy tales - and since too many people love lies more than truth they bit. Many are now sorry and independents are fleeing Obama.

Of course it was natural these things happen since we have a degenerated populace that lives in a psychotic haze where the charade of global warming is real, where boys should marry each other, and where our enemies only attack because we defend ourselves.

Dick Morris is also correct about a looming "catastrophe" if people dont wake up and stop collapsing into a banana republic with barely a whimper. Fifty years of liberal education and media have people thinking up is really down and vice versa. Obama is an enemy to American security and prosperity. The awake people saw it before the election.

There you go with Reverend Wright again. I'm sorry we don't live in a world where you can just hang uppity n*****s any more. Sucks to be a white man these days, don't it, Cletus?

 

[Lemon law]

Not sure about who came up with this garbage, but its worth quoting. " Fifty years of liberal education and media have people thinking up is really down and vice versa. Obama is an enemy to American security and prosperity. The awake people saw it before the election."

The damn question is, where were the AWAKE PEOPLE sleeping when GWB&co were in charge? Much of the Obama programs are made necessary to fix the damages done by GWB&co, and the AWAKE PEOPLE, whomever they are, only wake up now. Making only negative comments and not a single recommendation of their own.

And for that matter, America did fairly well under GHB and Bill Clinton, and this country was even running a slight budget surplus
when GWB took office.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Not sure about who came up with this garbage, but its worth quoting. " Fifty years of liberal education and media have people thinking up is really down and vice versa. Obama is an enemy to American security and prosperity. The awake people saw it before the election."

The damn question is, where were the AWAKE PEOPLE sleeping when GWB&co were in charge? Much of the Obama programs are made necessary to fix the damages done by GWB&co, and the AWAKE PEOPLE, whomever they are, only wake up now. Making only negative comments and not a single recommendation of their own.

And for that matter, America did fairly well under GHB and Bill Clinton, and this country was even running a slight budget surplus
when GWB took office.

I've been telling these fruit loops they are upside down for years and they like the angle so now we've got copy cats. BS is upside down all over the place so it's funny as hell when he says it.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: PJABBER
Michael Leavitt, Secretary of Health and Human Services from 2005-09, former Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency and elected three times as the Governor of Utah, succinctly summarizes why this is a boondoggle approaching the level of the "stimulus."

Michael Leavitt

Republican governor

Cabinet appointee under Republican President GWB

Mormon

Closet-polygamist

Used the CDC's emergency response jet for $700,000 worth of non-emergency flights, including once during a CDC emergency that forced the agency to contract another plane

Has used his family's "charitable foundation" as a tax-shelter to funnel money into Leavitt's family run businesses

Wife "accidentally" burned down the Utah governor's mansion, so it could be newly updated to the tune of $8 million taxpayer dollars

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The damn question is, where were the AWAKE PEOPLE sleeping when GWB&co were in charge?

:thumbsup:

Much of the Obama programs are made necessary to fix the damages done by GWB&co, and the AWAKE PEOPLE, whomever they are, only wake up now. Making only negative comments and not a single recommendation of their own.

And for that matter, America did fairly well under GHB and Bill Clinton, and this country was even running a slight budget surplus when GWB took office.

Actually, Bush inherited a recession upon entering office. And when you look at what government did to fight off that recession, and what Obama inherited, you'll hopefully understand why I disagree with your assertion that what Obama is doing is "necessary." And there are other "recommendations" but they are ignored.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The damn question is, where were the AWAKE PEOPLE sleeping when GWB&co were in charge?

:thumbsup:

Much of the Obama programs are made necessary to fix the damages done by GWB&co, and the AWAKE PEOPLE, whomever they are, only wake up now. Making only negative comments and not a single recommendation of their own.

And for that matter, America did fairly well under GHB and Bill Clinton, and this country was even running a slight budget surplus when GWB took office.

Actually, Bush inherited a recession upon entering office. And when you look at what government did to fight off that recession, and what Obama inherited, you'll hopefully understand why I disagree with your assertion that what Obama is doing is "necessary." And there are other "recommendations" but they are ignored.

But we established, did we not, that the vast preponderance of knowledge workers in the economic field recommended that Obama do what he did, no? You can hardly expect the Pres of the US who has a serious job, no, to follow the advise of fringe elements and secret societies. You are a known nut case poster, I believe, who holds a very eclectic and rare point of view, that nobody in his right mind will listen to or so it would seem. So I think your job, along with your third party crap, is to get those ideas accepted into the norm, so that the next time we have an economic crisis, somebody besides the kooks of the world will listen. The Pres has got to go with the dominant paradigm because that's what consensus builders do. Either that you you're going to have to find yourself a dictator to force us, say, back on gold.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
But we established, did we not, that the vast preponderance of knowledge workers in the economic field recommended that Obama do what he did, no?

Did we?

Did he even bother to talk to anyone who disagreed? Anyone who actually saw this coming? Did Bernanke see this coming? No. Paulson? No. Geithner? Not that I am aware of. You tell me, who should he listen to? Who should he have by his side? People who saw this coming years ago, or those who were shocked as much as the American people? Because we all know who he chose.

You are a known nut case poster, I believe, who holds a very eclectic and rare point of view, that nobody in his right mind will listen to or so it would seem.

That's why I wear the clown avatar. *nudge*nudge*

 

[Lemon law]

Gotta somewhat laugh at the Bamacre contention of, " Actually, Bush inherited a recession upon entering office. And when you look at what government did to fight off that recession, and what Obama inherited, you'll hopefully understand why I disagree with your assertion that what Obama is doing is "necessary." And there are other "recommendations" but they are ignored."

Yes poor ole GWB, born with a silver spoon in his mouth, proceeds to cure that small recession he inherited with tax cuts that mostly go to the very rich. And thereby triggered a 2.2 trillion dollar economic expansion, the only fly in the oitment was that it costs a four plus trillion dollar expansion in the national debt. Worse yet, the poison pills of GWB policy also triggered the worse financial crisis in US history, IMHO, even worse than the great depression of 1929.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Yes poor ole GWB, born with a silver spoon in his mouth, proceeds to cure that small recession he inherited with tax cuts that mostly go to the very rich. And thereby triggered a 2.2 trillion dollar economic expansion, the only fly in the oitment was that it costs a four plus trillion dollar expansion in the national debt. Worse yet, the poison pills of GWB policy also triggered the worse financial crisis in US history, IMHO, even worse than the great depression of 1929.

What did the Bush admin do about that recession that Obama hasn't?

Tax cuts? Check.
Stimulus bill? Check.
Increased gov't spending? Check.
Record-breaking deficits? Check.
Lowered interest rates? Check.

But you make note that Bush's recession was small in comparison to what we see today, and you're 100% correct. But, what caused this recession? The things that "fixed" the previous one.

I'm not defending what the Bush admin did, not one bit. But I'm not apologizing for what Obama is doing either.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
i wonder if this guy coudl have gotten more facts wrong, but then again he does look at the world through pat-Buchanan colored glasses

Originally posted by: Genx87
Govt bubble will have to burst someday.

thats a nice talking point

What happens when govt is unable to continue expanding and pushing our gdp numbers up? At some point the bills will have to be paid. That means a contraction of govt, contraction in the economy, and a terrible correction.

'Bubble' is just the new buzzword that everyone likes to throw around. The only debts that need to be paid are our external debt to other countries, which amounts to about 25% of our total debt. The rest is internally owned. Our external debt is easily manageable.

Uh huh, try not paying on debt owned internally and see what happens. It may be paid back to people\organizations within the states. But the govt still have to raise money through more borrowing or taxes to pay off any interest or debt that is due.

What I was trying to say is that our country as a whole doesn't actually lose anything when we shuffle around money internally, so it's a wash. When we borrow money from say, the Chinese we are borrowing actual productivity from another country that will in fact need to be paid back with our productivity some day. Internal debt is just US people paying each other, there's no net loss for the country.

It's sort of like how our government went into massive debt to finance World War 2. We don't have to build tanks today and send them back in time to 1945 to pay off that debt of productivity, because we never actually borrowed future productivity. (as the flux capacitor had not been invented yet)

Sure we do. We pay interest from tax revenues. We are dedicating over 400 billion to interest payments on the debt. That saps the buying power of the tax payer. And I really dont see a difference in borrowing productivity from China or from the United States in the overall scheme of things.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
But we established, did we not, that the vast preponderance of knowledge workers in the economic field recommended that Obama do what he did, no?

Did we?

Did he even bother to talk to anyone who disagreed? Anyone who actually saw this coming? Did Bernanke see this coming? No. Paulson? No. Geithner? Not that I am aware of. You tell me, who should he listen to? Who should he have by his side? People who saw this coming years ago, or those who were shocked as much as the American people? Because we all know who he chose.

You are a known nut case poster, I believe, who holds a very eclectic and rare point of view, that nobody in his right mind will listen to or so it would seem.

That's why I wear the clown avatar. *nudge*nudge*

Yes, we did. It makes not the slightest difference who I think we should have talked to. It makes not the slightest difference who saw what coming. It makes not the slightest difference who you think we should have talked to. The only people who are going to get the ear of the President are the reigning experts, the acknowledged knowledge workers in that field. That is the way rational people work. They don't listen to those considered crack pots. They don't listen to clowns. As I said, you have failed to mainstream your point of view. You can parade around in your clown suit all you want with that I am so smart I look like a clown to normal people, but those normal people will still think you're only a clown. I got the patent on clown, trust me.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: eskimospy

What I was trying to say is that our country as a whole doesn't actually lose anything when we shuffle around money internally, so it's a wash. When we borrow money from say, the Chinese we are borrowing actual productivity from another country that will in fact need to be paid back with our productivity some day. Internal debt is just US people paying each other, there's no net loss for the country.

It's sort of like how our government went into massive debt to finance World War 2. We don't have to build tanks today and send them back in time to 1945 to pay off that debt of productivity, because we never actually borrowed future productivity. (as the flux capacitor had not been invented yet)

Sure we do. We pay interest from tax revenues. We are dedicating over 400 billion to interest payments on the debt. That saps the buying power of the tax payer. And I really dont see a difference in borrowing productivity from China or from the United States in the overall scheme of things.

Because the United States cannot borrow productivity from the United States. That's a logical impossibility. This is extremely, extremely different than borrowing productivity from China. Think of it as a family scenario. If you lend your wife 100 dollars, the net worth of your family hasn't actually changed, just been shuffled around some. When you pay her back with interest, the interest stays in the family. Compare that to borrowing 100 dollars from the bank. When you pay them interest, it's money lost. Paying interest to ourselves also does not sap the buying power of the taxpayer, because the interest being paid is going to the taxpayer.

This whole 'we're borrowing our lifestyle from our children' lie that keeps circulating around is incredibly dishonest. Exactly how are we borrowing this from our children? What mechanism is being used to teleport their production from the future back to 2009? The DeLorean? Money we borrow from China is productivity we don't have being added to our total. That's something that will need to be returned someday. Luckily for us, foreign holdings of US debt only amount to a small fraction of the total.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
But we established, did we not, that the vast preponderance of knowledge workers in the economic field recommended that Obama do what he did, no?

Did we?

Did he even bother to talk to anyone who disagreed? Anyone who actually saw this coming? Did Bernanke see this coming? No. Paulson? No. Geithner? Not that I am aware of. You tell me, who should he listen to? Who should he have by his side? People who saw this coming years ago, or those who were shocked as much as the American people? Because we all know who he chose.

You are a known nut case poster, I believe, who holds a very eclectic and rare point of view, that nobody in his right mind will listen to or so it would seem.

That's why I wear the clown avatar. *nudge*nudge*

Yes, we did. It makes not the slightest difference who I think we should have talked to. It makes not the slightest difference who saw what coming. It makes not the slightest difference who you think we should have talked to. The only people who are going to get the ear of the President are the reigning experts, the acknowledged knowledge workers in that field. That is the way rational people work. They don't listen to those considered crack pots. They don't listen to clowns. As I said, you have failed to mainstream your point of view. You can parade around in your clown suit all you want with that I am so smart I look like a clown to normal people, but those normal people will still think you're only a clown. I got the patent on clown, trust me.

If the majority is made up of fools who want to be lied to, does it matter if an idea was mainstreamed or not?

We were given vagaries and we voted on vagaries. I think that people were really just hoping- the campaign promised hope and it delivered on hope. But hope might just be deferred in the long run as it has been in the short run. Hope means nothing if that which is hoped for turns out to be mist.

I think these matters we argue about are so complicated.. not complicated b/c we don't understand them, but complicated in that the public has so little information as to what is really going on in the country. Those who are very certain about these things are fooling themselves. I think people really are very uncertain, but many pretend they are certain b/c the uncertainty rattles them and they can't deal with it.

 

[Moonbeam]

s: If the majority is made up of fools who want to be lied to, does it matter if an idea was mainstreamed or not?

M: Probably not but I don't see how this is relevant. The majority I am talking about are the professional money men, the economists of the country who were for a stimulus plan. I don't know if they are fools or not, I just know they are the people the President will listen to because any rational person would assume they know the most about what to do. He's not going to listen to you or me or bamacre, you see.

s: We were given vagaries and we voted on vagaries. I think that people were really just hoping- the campaign promised hope and it delivered on hope. But hope might just be deferred in the long run as it has been in the short run. Hope means nothing if that which is hoped for turns out to be mist.

M: Hope is an attitude, not a wish list. It's how you assess your capacities to deal with the world. It provides motivation when things look bad. It's a green light not a red one.

s: I think these matters we argue about are so complicated.. not complicated b/c we don't understand them, but complicated in that the public has so little information as to what is really going on in the country. Those who are very certain about these things are fooling themselves. I think people really are very uncertain, but many pretend they are certain b/c the uncertainty rattles them and they can't deal with it.

M: I don't know who you mean by that first 'we'. I know they are way to complicated for me and that I lack information. I certainly know that people who are certain about things are fooling themselves and it bothers me because I'm certain about it.

I can tell you too, though you may not believe it, that the reason people are certain and fear uncertainty is because they hate themselves and any defect they think they might have, like not knowing something, will make them look stupid to somebody else and to avoid feeling how they feel, as in being reminded how stupid they feel by being called that, they will do anything, and one of the easiest on the list, is to lie to themselves about knowing things. Thus we live in a world full of know nothing pompous asshole world authorities.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
s: If the majority is made up of fools who want to be lied to, does it matter if an idea was mainstreamed or not?

M: Probably not but I don't see how this is relevant. The majority I am talking about are the professional money men, the economists of the country who were for a stimulus plan. I don't know if they are fools or not, I just know they are the people the President will listen to because any rational person would assume they know the most about what to do. He's not going to listen to you or me or bamacre, you see.

But the reasons why the "money men" were for the stimulus plan...? Do you know what their reasons were for that? Therein lies the real problem. I don't know and you don't know- they tell us why, but I am not so sure that they are telling the complete truth.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
If it's sinking, why are you guys staying on a sinking ship?

More empty rhetoric from the right wing.

I hope they at least have their bags packed.

Hopefully passage of this healthcare reform gets them getting the fuck out of here.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: jpeyton
If it's sinking, why are you guys staying on a sinking ship?

More empty rhetoric from the right wing.

I hope they at least have their bags packed.

Hopefully passage of this healthcare reform gets them getting the fuck out of here.

You recall what Americans did last time a distant and unrepresentative government placed undue taxes on us?

Hint: We did not leave.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: jpeyton
If it's sinking, why are you guys staying on a sinking ship?

More empty rhetoric from the right wing.

I hope they at least have their bags packed.

Hopefully passage of this healthcare reform gets them getting the fuck out of here.

You recall what Americans did last time a distant and unrepresentative government placed undue taxes on us?

Hint: We did not leave.

Republicans are taking up arms to kill Democrats?

 

[themusgrat]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: jpeyton
If it's sinking, why are you guys staying on a sinking ship?

More empty rhetoric from the right wing.

I hope they at least have their bags packed.

Hopefully passage of this healthcare reform gets them getting the fuck out of here.

Don't get off in your pants just yet. You'd have to be pretty stupid to fully support the health care bill in its current form. And when you're trying to implement legislation that's so wide sweeping as this, that will by the admittance of its writers cause Americans to lose jobs, maybe somewhere in your partyliner-mind you can see the sense in waiting just a bit more and trying to fix what's wrong with it.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Republicans are taking up arms to kill Democrats?

It's cute how you define everything by party. As good VS evil. Cute in a simpleton kinda way.

I don't know Mcowen, you're telling us to leave. What are you going to do if we don't?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Republicans are taking up arms to kill Democrats?

It's cute how you define everything by party. As good VS evil. Cute in a simpleton kinda way.

I don't know Mcowen, you're telling us to leave.

What are you going to do if we don't?

Watch you guys writhe in misery.

It's fun cheap entertainment actually.

Thanks :thumbsup:

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: themusgrat

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: jpeyton
If it's sinking, why are you guys staying on a sinking ship?

More empty rhetoric from the right wing.

I hope they at least have their bags packed.

Hopefully passage of this healthcare reform gets them getting the fuck out of here.

Don't get off in your pants just yet. You'd have to be pretty stupid to fully support the health care bill in its current form. And when you're trying to implement legislation that's so wide sweeping as this, that will by the admittance of its writers cause Americans to lose jobs,

maybe somewhere in your partyliner-mind you can see the sense in waiting just a bit more

and trying to fix what's wrong with it.

Ummm Thats a BIG NO

Us lowly real Americans have waited long enough at the feet of rich Republicans that were quite content on changing NOTHING.

Suck it up and taste a little bit of what the rest of the country has been experiencing or you can leave.