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Social Security to cost $7000/worker

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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
Oh. Screw that.

Yeah, screw the idea of people not getting any SS when they paid into the system, right? Like under your system, if someone dies before they reach average life expectancy, statistically a 50/50 chance, they get nothing. At least my idea only excludes rich people.

- wolf
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,553
2
76
Yeah, screw the idea of people not getting any SS when they paid into the system, right? Like under your system, if someone dies before they reach average life expectancy, statistically a 50/50 chance, they get nothing. At least my idea only excludes rich people.

- wolf

they didn't pay nearly enough into the system to get $1000/month of it for 15 years. So no, they're getting WAY more out of it than they paid in. In fact, they hardly paid in at all.
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
Well, our lifestyle just isn't sustainable I think...fundamentally.
We can't only be producing in the economy for 35 years of our lives and then expect to retire and live in luxury (1-22 years and then retirement to death, say 15-20 years there). It's just not sustainable, not when the rest of the world is willing to work for so much less money and do the same thing. They're starving, so they're willing to work 12 hour days. We're just going to have to suck it up and keep working till we're no longer able (till like 70-75), and then move in with your children-- the way it's worked for all of history until now.

So, people need to keep working (delay SS until 75 or whatever the avg life expectancy is-- used to be 65 that's why SS started at 65), and just be content with less-- such as living with your children if you can't afford your own house.

There's really no way out of this, it's either inflation with the Federal Reserve buying all the US Treasuries (result will be cost of living goes way up until the SS payments aren't anything at all anymore-- ie barely cover food if even that), or the gov't axing benefits for the old people-- the end result is the same, they end up with less. The working population won't put up with another Income Tax (which is what this will turn into), they'd rather have the money and mom/dad just have to live with them.

this is the fallacy here... there'a lot of jobs that the average 65+ yr old person cannot keep doing...

they've turned ss into something that it was never intended to be; let it become rife with fraud and waste; and never funded the expansion of it properly... it's a classic gov't program... when the 'crisis' hits they'll just nationalize all the 401k and retirement plans since people with those things didn't really need the money anyways...

and the means test should be 'did you live within your means all your life?'...
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
they didn't pay nearly enough into the system to get $1000/month of it for 15 years. So no, they're getting WAY more out of it than they paid in. In fact, they hardly paid in at all.

I repeat. If you index starting age to life expectancy, statistically 50% of everyone who pays into the system will get NOTHING back out for whatever they put in. That's fair?

I was being a bit snarky by suggesting means testing, because I think your solution is rather extreme. The reports I've seen on the health of SS suggest that far more moderate changes will fix the system. We can probably just raise the retirement age a couple years.

- wolf
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
they should consolidate all gov't retirement plans into ss and all the gov't workers get a single share payment - no double and triple dipping on gov't benefits... that would be fair...
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
I repeat. If you index starting age to life expectancy, statistically 50% of everyone who pays into the system will get NOTHING back out for whatever they put in. That's fair?

I was being a bit snarky by suggesting means testing, because I think your solution is rather extreme. The reports I've seen on the health of SS suggest that far more moderate changes will fix the system. We can probably just raise the retirement age a couple years.

- wolf

Most Democrats/progressives would fight tooth and nail raising the retirement age.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
they should consolidate all gov't retirement plans into ss and all the gov't workers get a single share payment - no double and triple dipping on gov't benefits... that would be fair...
That'd be huge, but the only way it happens is if we strip the Government of Money.

-John
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,553
2
76
this is the fallacy here... there'a lot of jobs that the average 65+ yr old person cannot keep doing...

they've turned ss into something that it was never intended to be; let it become rife with fraud and waste; and never funded the expansion of it properly... it's a classic gov't program... when the 'crisis' hits they'll just nationalize all the 401k and retirement plans since people with those things didn't really need the money anyways...

and the means test should be 'did you live within your means all your life?'...

There are a lot of things a 65 year old person can do, like help around the house cooking, cleaning, taking care of the kids, doing laundry, while mom works.
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
and the next thing they'll probably do is take the cap off of ss and medicare tax on pay... that'll be a nice screwing on us evil upper middle classers...
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
There are a lot of things a 65 year old person can do, like help around the house cooking, cleaning, taking care of the kids, doing laundry, while mom works.

i was typing in the context of people working for wages for longer...

and they can only help if they themselves aren't invalid...
 
Last edited:

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
Most Democrats/progressives would fight tooth and nail raising the retirement age.
Everything I have heard is that it is a given.

The retirement age used to be 60, I think. Now it is 65... and they are shooting for 70 :)

Fucking bastards.

-John
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,553
2
76
they didn't pay nearly enough into the system to get $1000/month of it for 15 years. So no, they're getting WAY more out of it than they paid in. In fact, they hardly paid in at all.
I repeat. If you index starting age to life expectancy, statistically 50% of everyone who pays into the system will get NOTHING back out for whatever they put in. That's fair?

I was being a bit snarky by suggesting means testing, because I think your solution is rather extreme. The reports I've seen on the health of SS suggest that far more moderate changes will fix the system. We can probably just raise the retirement age a couple years.

- wolf

dude, that's how it started out, that's how it should be now. It started at 65, because people died at 65. They were OK with that. That's raiding our children's pockets a lot less than letting gramps retire for 20+ years and play golf while both parents have to work their butt off just to feed their kids.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
this is the fallacy here... there'a lot of jobs that the average 65+ yr old person cannot keep doing...

they've turned ss into something that it was never intended to be; let it become rife with fraud and waste; and never funded the expansion of it properly... it's a classic gov't program... when the 'crisis' hits they'll just nationalize all the 401k and retirement plans since people with those things didn't really need the money anyways...

and the means test should be 'did you live within your means all your life?'...
Aight, now you are scaring me.

-John
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,553
2
76
i was typing in the context of people working for wages for longer...

yeah, I'm just thinking outside the box. One of my prof's is over 70, could keep teaching for another 3 years probably.

They (older people) could do programming, that requires only fingers and thinking. Would be good in protecting them from developing alzheimers, too. Worst case they just have to move in with kids, the way it's worked for all of recorded history.

Regarding 401k's, yeah, nationalized, or force everyone to start "saving" for "rainy days" in a gov't run investment plan, which will be made up of a hefty number of US Treasuries...
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
Everything I have heard is that it is a given.

The retirement age used to be 60, I think. Now it is 65... and they are shooting for 70 :)

Fucking bastards.

-John

From what I've read, setting it at 67 would just about fix it. At least for a couple decades.

- wolf
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
dude, that's how it started out, that's how it should be now. It started at 65, because people died at 65. They were OK with that. That's raiding our children's pockets a lot less than letting gramps retire for 20+ years and play golf while both parents have to work their butt off just to feed their kids.

This line of argument fails, because it assumes that when life expectancies were 65, the health of a person between ages 45 and 65 was equivalent to the health of a person now between ages 65 and 85. We have extended life expectancy mainly by being able to treat - but usually not cure - chronic diseases. That means people living over the old life expectancy tend not to be healthy enough to work. There are plenty of exceptions, but this is generally true in many if not most cases.

If only you are lucky enough to be able to work without extreme pain and discomfort in your 70's. We should all be that lucky.

- wolf
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
From what I've read, setting it at 67 would just about fix it. At least for a couple decades.

- wolf

anyone using medicare or medicade should have a standing "do not resuscitate" order... that would start fixing the problem...

and i already have one on myself, and i don't use either program...
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
Funny how the liberals were supposed be killing off granny with their evil death panels. It only takes a discussion of SS and Medicare to reveal the true attitude of the conservative -that sick elderly people are just too great a tax burden.

- wolf
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Well, our lifestyle just isn't sustainable I think...fundamentally.
We can't only be producing in the economy for 35 years of our lives and then expect to retire and live in luxury (1-22 years and then retirement to death, say 15-20 years there). It's just not sustainable, not when the rest of the world is willing to work for so much less money and do the same thing. They're starving, so they're willing to work 12 hour days. We're just going to have to suck it up and keep working till we're no longer able (till like 70-75), and then move in with your children-- the way it's worked for all of history until now.

I'm not really sure what world you live in where SS is living in luxury. In no universe are monthly SS checks considered luxirious, that's just a fundamental misunderstanding on your part. You're also making claims about how old folks have lived with their kids "for all of history" as if anyone who has actually looked into the history of that statement could possibly corroborate it. Not since the early 19th century have parents and their children consistently lived together; once families started having fewer babies (because they didn't need/want kids to subsist on farmland any longer, so children left earlier and parents were forced to fend for themselves in their old age, helping to lead to the idea of having to save money in banks over one's lifetime), have children and parents lived together in the elder's retirement in any significant numbers. We're talking 200 years ago.

Your statements also ignore the reality that other countries are already successful at doing this; plenty of other countries have workers that work for less than 35 years (like France, like Britain) who retire with very good benefits and can do so for 20+ years.

So, people need to keep working (delay SS until 75 or whatever the avg life expectancy is-- used to be 65 that's why SS started at 65), and just be content with less-- such as living with your children if you can't afford your own house.

There's really no way out of this, it's either inflation with the Federal Reserve buying all the US Treasuries (result will be cost of living goes way up until the SS payments aren't anything at all anymore-- ie barely cover food if even that), or the gov't axing benefits for the old people-- the end result is the same, they end up with less. The working population won't put up with another Income Tax (which is what this will turn into), they'd rather have the money and mom/dad just have to live with them.

The country has been putting up with it since the 19th century, and the numbers say it's not really difficult to sustain with a combination of more people, more economic growth, more taxes and, yes, more inflation. You're going to have to get over the idea that inflation is bad, because it's a very sensible way to grow an economy in moderate amounts and far superior to letting dollars deflate which is, of course, the only alternative.
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
Funny how the liberals were supposed be killing off granny with their evil death panels. It only takes a discussion of SS and Medicare to reveal the true attitude of the conservative -that sick elderly people are just too great a tax burden.

- wolf

i'm not killing anyone... i'm just letting dead people stay dead, young or old... and it's no different than i do for myself, so it's pretty hard to use that paintbrush here...
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,553
2
76
This line of argument fails, because it assumes that when life expectancies were 65, the health of a person between ages 45 and 65 was equivalent to the health of a person now between ages 65 and 85. We have extended life expectancy mainly by being able to treat - but usually not cure - chronic diseases. That means people living over the old life expectancy tend not to be healthy enough to work. There are plenty of exceptions, but this is generally true in many if not most cases.

If only you are lucky enough to be able to work without extreme pain and discomfort in your 70's. We should all be that lucky.

- wolf

Hm, you're right.
They'll just have to live with their children.
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,553
2
76
Well, our lifestyle just isn't sustainable I think...fundamentally.
We can't only be producing in the economy for 35 years of our lives and then expect to retire and live in luxury (1-22 years and then retirement to death, say 15-20 years there). It's just not sustainable, not when the rest of the world is willing to work for so much less money and do the same thing. They're starving, so they're willing to work 12 hour days. We're just going to have to suck it up and keep working till we're no longer able (till like 70-75), and then move in with your children-- the way it's worked for all of history until now.

So, people need to keep working (delay SS until 75 or whatever the avg life expectancy is-- used to be 65 that's why SS started at 65), and just be content with less-- such as living with your children if you can't afford your own house.

There's really no way out of this, it's either inflation with the Federal Reserve buying all the US Treasuries (result will be cost of living goes way up until the SS payments aren't anything at all anymore-- ie barely cover food if even that), or the gov't axing benefits for the old people-- the end result is the same, they end up with less. The working population won't put up with another Income Tax (which is what this will turn into), they'd rather have the money and mom/dad just have to live with them.
I'm not really sure what world you live in where SS is living in luxury. In no universe are monthly SS checks considered luxirious, that's just a fundamental misunderstanding on your part. You're also making claims about how old folks have lived with their kids "for all of history" as if anyone who has actually looked into the history of that statement could possibly corroborate it. Not since the early 19th century have parents and their children consistently lived together; once families started having fewer babies (because they didn't need/want kids to subsist on farmland any longer, so children left earlier and parents were forced to fend for themselves in their old age, helping to lead to the idea of having to save money in banks over one's lifetime), have children and parents lived together in the elder's retirement in any significant numbers. We're talking 200 years ago.

Your statements also ignore the reality that other countries are already successful at doing this; plenty of other countries have workers that work for less than 35 years (like France, like Britain) who retire with very good benefits and can do so for 20+ years.



The country has been putting up with it since the 19th century, and the numbers say it's not really difficult to sustain with a combination of more people, more economic growth, more taxes and, yes, more inflation. You're going to have to get over the idea that inflation is bad, because it's a very sensible way to grow an economy in moderate amounts and far superior to letting dollars deflate which is, of course, the only alternative.

we're talking about 2 entirely different kinds of inflation.
SS is luxury compared to what humanity has experienced for all of recorded history, and that's just going to have to change, no getting around it.