Social Conservatives sink to a new low. Rewrite history, no let's actually do it.

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Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,541
10,981
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I'm surprised they haven't added that we found stockpiles of WMD in Iraq and that no terrorist attacks occurred during W's presidency. Those are the current versions of conservative revisionist history ...

And do they plan on removing Jefferson from Rushmore?
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here. By slant I'm not talking about perversion of facts or embellishment. I mean the act of choosing content. There is not way to undo the slant created by the choice of certain content by choosing more content. That broadens the perspective, but it doesn't negate the fact that the omission of the other 99.9999% of events that happened in the period under investigation are being ignored.

That is also what I am talking about. If any historical text is presented as incomplete it can escape the trappings of slant. Specific to this matter in Texas, though, we're dealing with both content slant and fact perversion/embellishment slant. My original comment was a complaint about the desire by those on the board to correct the "left-leaning" curriculum by making it more "right-leaning". Subsequent comments were more general.

A good preface or foreword is valuable in explaining the role of perspective in the creation of a history, but it can never make it "objective". The best that can be done is simply to be honest about what the history is designed to accomplish.

What is the difference between the material being objectively written and objectively read? Objectively written is what we've covered so far. Objectively read is possible through proper and thorough prefacing. The reader knows ahead of time the perspective of what they're reading and can be objective about it within that context.

Now that sounds incredibly editorial. What exactly is a villain then? What's the difference between Genghis Khan, Adolf Hitler, and Alexander the Great? ("Great"?!?! What a value-infused term...)

The creation of that distinction requires a lens of values. That's not a bad thing, but lets not pretend that you aren't proposing a slant!

The villain, in this case, is slant because I was talking about eliminating it.
 
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Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
I liked Texas better when they were threatening to withdraw from the Union. Texas -- Are you listening? Ple-e-e-e-eze... DO IT! That simple act will raise the mean IQ of the nation that won't miss you.

Texans were GREEDY enough to separate billions of dollars from California during your self-created electric crisis a few years ago, and likewise to not bankrupt themselves like you're doing now.

Fixed it for ya! No need to thank me. :cool:

So your point is that Texans are not only stupid enough to attempt to rewrite history to perpetuate their monumental stupidity; they're willing to rewrite laws and ignore basic ethical standards, as well, to further their greedy criminal purposes.

If that's the best they can manage, the U.S. would be better off without them.
 
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nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
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That is also what I am talking about. If any historical text is presented as incomplete it can escape the trappings of slant. Specific to this matter in Texas, though, we're dealing with both content slant and fact perversion/embellishment slant. My original comment was a complaint about the desire by those on the board to correct the "left-leaning" curriculum by making it more "right-leaning". Subsequent comments were more general.
I think we're saying mostly the same thing except for some semantic differences. In gist I think we probably agree even though we're using the word slant ot mean slightly different things. :)
What is the difference between the material being objectively written and objectively read?
I'm not sure what you mean here. I thought we were talking about writing the whole time.
Objectively written is what we've covered so far.
Good. We're on the same page. :)
Objectively read is possible through proper and thorough prefacing. The reader knows ahead of time the perspective of what they're reading and can be objective about it within that context.
Ah, I think we have very different views of what objective means, but again it's mostly semantic. I see objectivity as having a useful meaning when it comes to facts only, and being a completely meaningless construct when it comes to the narrative that is woven from those facts. Thus it si possible to read even the most unobjectively written piece of trash objectively as long as it does not contain overt (or covert) lies. By that I mean the objective fact that certain events happen can be conveyed by any book that states true facts. However the term "objective" is simply meaningless when it comes to interpreting the significance of the narrative that is being conveyed. The narrative is an entirely subjective construct. The fact that one coherent storyline is constructed from a given amalgam of data can never be objective because it is at its core a subjective creation.

Much like a polished cut diamond is an entirely human creation even though every atom was put in its given position by non-human forces; it is the human action of cutting away the undesired that lets the mythical form take shape from the rough incoherent blob that nature produces. That's what history is: creating a narrative in the form that the writer sees as conveying the most significant myth about the past, but (ideally) using only the raw, objective facts. In the end you get a creation which is in the exact shape the writer wanted, thus creating (in a sense) the picture the writer desired, even though none of the facts are the writer's own invention.

There is still a lot to be said for writers trying to be what they call "objective" - which clearly means something different from the narrow meaning I am using here. I am not saying historians should toss what they don't like and keep whatever they do. Only that they approach a project with a perspective that they want to tell, for example, to tell the story of one group in a period, or the role of a certain sociological phenomenon in the emergence of a movement and that is what they tell. It is this decision of what the project is and what story it is going to tell that I mean really gives shape to a given historical piece of work.
The villain, in this case, is slant because I was talking about eliminating it.
Ah never mind then. I thought you were talking about how historical figures can be dressed up one way or another by editorial choices (or by worse kinds of choices, like misrepresentations). I got it now.
 
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rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
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This is going to bite Texas in the ass. The right to bear arms? That was added because it was hot and stuffy in Philly in the summer. Men were expected to wear long sleeve shirts. The Right to Bear arms was then added. The rest is... as we say... history.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
39,707
20,261
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that the founding fathers were actually religious (not seculars as liberals want to teach) and there religious beliefs were the basis for the Bill of Rights (that these rights were ordained by God and it is the job of the government to protect not provide)

Religous people, who also owned slaves, smoked tobacco, drank booze, grew hemp, and had extramarital affairs...and who knows what else..good point indeed...

Texas can defect for all I care..good riddance. I want my kids raised with knowledge of where our country was really from.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,619
6,717
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So you list a bunch of changes but do not give any starting point. Therefore, no determination can be made if the alterations to the text will make it "ultra conservative" or if the change will balance out a history books that was originally slanted left.

Secondly, nothing that is listed is factually inaccurate so how is that an assault on education? Why is it ok for educational institution to teach "progressive" values but not conservative events?

Because the rate of development of human culture and human events is accelerating faster and faster day by day and what you call conservatism has become prehistoric. You backward assholes, while you can't have the conscious development to help yourselves, are destroying our nations chance to maintain a cultural lead in the world. You keep dragging us back into the fucking toilet.

Your fucking backward stupidity no longer just fucks yourselves.

You are the pecker heads that voted for Bush and after 8 years of that total horse shit you haven't learned anything. You're fucking bankrupt and totally useless, and dangerous to yourselves and the rest of the human race.

Other than that, though, you're OK. I guess when you wipe your asses my Charmin stock goes up.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
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Because the rate of development of human culture and human events is accelerating faster and faster day by day
What does this statement mean? Sure the rate of media content production is accelerating, but what is "development of human culture" exactly?
and what you call conservatism has become prehistoric. You backward assholes, while you can't have the conscious development to help yourselves, are destroying our nations chance to maintain a cultural lead in the world. You keep dragging us back into the fucking toilet.

Your fucking backward stupidity no longer just fucks yourselves.

You are the pecker heads that voted for Bush and after 8 years of that total horse shit you haven't learned anything. You're fucking bankrupt and totally useless, and dangerous to yourselves and the rest of the human race.

Other than that, though, you're OK. I guess when you wipe your asses my Charmin stock goes up.
Hmm...
Moonbeam - in another thread said:
We will be judged by how we treat the least among us so I was trying to awaken your love.
Well you're obviously working hard to awaken love in this world. Keep up the good work you authoritarian lapdog.

Seriously, what do you even mean when you use such vacuous bullshit phrases as "cultural lead"? You rail on about these completely undefined bullshit phrases as if they are objective concepts. It is utterly laughable, especially in light of the fact that the "love" you apparently intend to spread throughout the world is simply putting an ideological bullet in the head of everyone who thinks differently from you.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,398
8,566
126
Frankly, the Yahoo article is a typical media "the sky is falling" response. I don't think the changes are as apocalyptic as the media makes it out. Read the actual changes (at least for US history since 1877) here.

Among other things, it shows that that hip-hop was not dropped, although there was a proposal to do so that was defeated. Read it and decide for yourself.

nice to see that fact checking is alive and well in the media

oh wait
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,619
6,717
126
nonlnear: What does this statement mean? Sure the rate of media content production is accelerating, but what is "development of human culture" exactly?

M: I want you to step out of your usual shoes and ask yourself if it isn't really obvious. Think of culture from the cave man to now. Has there been any progress?

n: Hmm...
Well you're obviously working hard to awaken love in this world. Keep up the good work you authoritarian lapdog.

M: You refer to a post in another thread you did not understand.

n: Seriously, what do you even mean when you use such vacuous bullshit phrases as "cultural lead"? You rail on about these completely undefined bullshit phrases as if they are objective concepts. It is utterly laughable, especially in light of the fact that the "love" you apparently intend to spread throughout the world is simply putting an ideological bullet in the head of everyone who thinks differently from you.

M: I think a classically liberal society that values individual freedom and the sanctity of human life is superior to other cultures in the world today. You don't have to agree. And don't forget about tough love.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
nonlnear: What does this statement mean? Sure the rate of media content production is accelerating, but what is "development of human culture" exactly?

M: I want you to step out of your usual shoes and ask yourself if it isn't really obvious.
Ah more pretentious condescension. I wouldn't have expected any different. I'll acknowledge that a few small "advances" have been made since the stoics, but about the only inkling of "progress" that happened in the twentieth century was the work of Ayn Rand. Other than that there are two sides of the statist coin selling

Think of culture from the cave man to now. Has there been any progress?
PLEASE define the term first. On second thought I son't expect that you understand what a definition really is. The ace in the hole of post-modernism's iconoclastic derision of all definitions is they pretend they don't have to bother defining anything.
n: Hmm...
Well you're obviously working hard to awaken love in this world. Keep up the good work you authoritarian lapdog.

M: You refer to a post in another thread you did not understand.
Cute. I actually agree with the original Biblical sentiment you were quoting in that thread. I am repulsed by your unjustified stretch from individual ethics to a government mandate, but that's par for the course for a collectivist.
n: Seriously, what do you even mean when you use such vacuous bullshit phrases as "cultural lead"? You rail on about these completely undefined bullshit phrases as if they are objective concepts. It is utterly laughable, especially in light of the fact that the "love" you apparently intend to spread throughout the world is simply putting an ideological bullet in the head of everyone who thinks differently from you.

M: I think a classically liberal society that values individual freedom and the sanctity of human life is superior to other cultures in the world today. You don't have to agree. And don't forget about tough love.
The irony is that you hold classicla liberal society in total contempt, as you don't truly acknowledge the value of an effective freedom of conscience. Unconditional property rights are a necessary consequence of freedom of conscience. Anything else is statist hypocrisy. I know that's a bold claim, so don't feel the need to refute it directly. I can lay it out in the context of a comprehensive political philosophy, but I'm only going to bother if you'll agree to do me the same courtesy in kind. I'll go first if you like. And yes, I mean a comprehensive political philosophy: from metaphysics to individual ethics to political philosophy, from axioms to case studies.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,619
6,717
126
nonlnear: What does this statement mean? Sure the rate of media content production is accelerating, but what is "development of human culture" exactly?

M: I want you to step out of your usual shoes and ask yourself if it isn't really obvious.

-----------

n: Ah more pretentious condescension. I wouldn't have expected any different. I'll acknowledge that a few small "advances" have been made since the stoics, but about the only inkling of "progress" that happened in the twentieth century was the work of Ayn Rand. Other than that there are two sides of the statist coin selling

M: I wasn't being pretentious at all. I had no idea you couldn't think on such an elementary level or that you were so stuffed full of utter nonsense. I read Ayn Rand as a child and found her to be a total idiot. I understand why it must be difficult for you to see any progress because you yourself haven't made any. This, of course, is how it looks to me. I don't expect you will agree.

====================

M: Think of culture from the cave man to now. Has there been any progress?

n: PLEASE define the term first. On second thought I son't expect that you understand what a definition really is. The ace in the hole of post-modernism's iconoclastic derision of all definitions is they pretend they don't have to bother defining anything.

M: Here are some ideas you might play with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_evolution

At least you will know, if nothing else, that a lot more is going on than Rand.

=================================

n: Hmm...
Well you're obviously working hard to awaken love in this world. Keep up the good work you authoritarian lapdog.

M: You refer to a post in another thread you did not understand.

n: Cute. I actually agree with the original Biblical sentiment you were quoting in that thread. I am repulsed by your unjustified stretch from individual ethics to a government mandate, but that's par for the course for a collectivist.

M: Cute? Didn't I mention you didn't understand what I was saying? If you don't understand something you don't know whether it was cute. I even told Cyclo his idea that I was going from individual mandate to collectivism was wrong and now I am telling you. If you want some pretensions condescension here it is:

I was telling Cyclo I wanted to awaken his love, not so take his money and give it to others, not under government compunction, or religious for that matter, as in give add your cloak when somebody asks for your shirt, but to inspire him with proper action. You see, at that time I had to help him because he was the least among us. He was full of righteous indignation and bitterness of heart. He was full of ego and self promotion and the kingdom is entered only by children and the meek.

===============

n: Seriously, what do you even mean when you use such vacuous bullshit phrases as "cultural lead"? You rail on about these completely undefined bullshit phrases as if they are objective concepts. It is utterly laughable, especially in light of the fact that the "love" you apparently intend to spread throughout the world is simply putting an ideological bullet in the head of everyone who thinks differently from you.

M: I think a classically liberal society that values individual freedom and the sanctity of human life is superior to other cultures in the world today. You don't have to agree. And don't forget about tough love.

n: The irony is that you hold classical liberal society in total contempt, as you don't truly acknowledge the value of an effective freedom of conscience.

M: Do too.

n: Unconditional property rights are a necessary consequence of freedom of conscience.

M: You can call your own only that which you can take with you after a ship wreak.

n: Anything else is statist hypocrisy. I know that's a bold claim, so don't feel the need to refute it directly.

M: Refute it resmoot it. I would have everything you own in about two seconds owing to my enormous physical strength and fitness and combat training, were it not that you have united with other weak kneed assholes to create a state with law. Where the fuck is your mind?

n: I can lay it out in the context of a comprehensive political philosophy, but I'm only going to bother if you'll agree to do me the same courtesy in kind. I'll go first if you like. And yes, I mean a comprehensive political philosophy: from metaphysics to individual ethics to political philosophy, from axioms to case studies.

M: I'm all ears. Naturally, however, I can only imagine what you must mean by doing you the same courtesy. I, for my part, only act with the kind of courtesy I understand and if yours doesn't measure up to my standards I won't debase myself with a promise.

I already, with my first reply to you, decided to be courteous by entering into dialog. I found myself attracted to a certain something in your posts, not as in fly to shit, but as a bee to a rose. I only hope you're not too deeply programmed you can no longer be fertilized.