Soak the rich, lose the rich.

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Genx87
Income tax is the easiest measure of taxation and one people see every pay check and it is also the most progressive. So I dont see it being dishonest to show states with the highest state income taxes are also seeing the highest flight of high income earners, the lowest increases in standards of living, and the biggest deficit holes to fill.

Florida has high property taxes but people's take home pay is bigger than in New York due to no stat income tax. Property taxes and interest is deductible on the federal level.


Look if anybody wants one of the most obvious examples of this look at Las Vegas. No income taxes and was the fastest growing city for 10 years in this country. It sits right next to California. Not a coincidence.

It's dishonest when you tax people more in other ways. And the whole argument is dishonest because it doesn't account for the high cost of living. I was looking into moving to Austin or Houston a while ago because the housing prices in CT is enormous. In texas, you can by a huge mcmansion for $200k, whereas, you'd have to spend like $600-700K for a comprable house where i live. And you don't even get a swimming pool/game room like some of the houses i was browsing in TX

How is it dishonest though? The simple fact is higher income taxed states are seeing an exodus of people to lower income tax states. Regardless if property taxes are higher in those states. It is no coincidence people who make enough to pay these taxes move. What you end up with is situations like NY or California that have driven enough of the wealth away they cant make their budgets.

Because the higher cost of living is probably a bigger factor for this 'mass exodus' than taxes? When i considered moving to TX, i didn't factor in the taxes for moving, i factored in the fact that housing was insanely high here and dirt cheap in texas. For the McMansion i could buy in say, houston or sugarland, i could probably buy a 1000 sq ft condo in the GHETTO part of the city i live in.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: mundane

Originally posted by: Skoorb
It's real. Rich really do and will leave high tax areas, resulting in extra stress on the rest to get done in the ass dry. One of, if not the richest guy in Rochester last week announced he's finally had enough of NY state. He's going to live in Florida. He started Paychex, a massive company, right here, but he's had enough of this rubbish so he can save $13,800/day or $5M/year by leaving the state, and that's what he'll do.

Gollisano's leaving? That's too bad; he employed a large number of people in the area and was *very* generous with his money (in fact, his donations to my alma mater resulted in some excellent new facilities).

Link

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Phokus
Also:

""A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both."

-Milton Freidman"

This has to be the most moronic quote when inequality between rich and poor is increasing at an astounding rate

Why is it mornic? Do you understand what the quote is saying?

yeah, economic freedom leaders to more equality, which is ridiculous when middle class wages have been stagnant for a while while the rich have gotten much richer.

The first part of the quote is the real doozy. When people put equality before freedom you get tyranny. It has happened in the past, it is happening right now. When you put freedom before equality everybody gets a higher degree of both.

There is nothing moronic about that at all.

Have you ever heard of the Gilded age and robber barrons? THAT is also tyranny.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Skoorb
It's real. Rich really do and will leave high tax areas, resulting in extra stress on the rest to get done in the ass dry. One of, if not the richest guy in Rochester last week announced he's finally had enough of NY state. He's going to live in California. He started Paychex, a massive company, right here, but he's had enough of this rubbish so he can save $13,800/day or $5M/year by leaving the state, and that's what he'll do.

That seems odd that he is moving to California hehe.

Though I do agree with you 100% the rich move when the burden becomes too much and it leaves the middle class paying for it.

I am not rich by any means but under the state of MN is considered 20%. I have considered moving to Colorado or ND. Two states with effective state taxes about 2% lower than MN.

there is no reason to consider moving to ND. 2% of your income is worth not living here.

I lived there for 5 years of my life. It isnt bad except for dec, jan, and feb.

Fargo is alright except for those months, because its right next to Minnesota.

 

[fleshconsumed]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124260067214828295.html

Some tidbits:

- From 1998 to 2007, more than 1,100 people every day moved from the nine highest income-tax states such as California, New Jersey, New York and Ohio and relocated mostly to the nine tax-haven states with no income tax, including Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire and Texas.

- Over same time-frame, no-income tax states created 89% more jobs and had 32% faster personal income growth than their high-tax counterparts.

And my favorite quote:

Those who disapprove of tax competition complain that lower state taxes only create a zero-sum competition where states "race to the bottom" and cut services to the poor as taxes fall to zero. They say that tax cutting inevitably means lower quality schools and police protection as lower tax rates mean starvation of public services.

They're wrong, and New Hampshire is our favorite illustration. The Live Free or Die State has no income or sales tax, yet it has high-quality schools and excellent public services. Students in New Hampshire public schools achieve the fourth-highest test scores in the nation -- even though the state spends about $1,000 a year less per resident on state and local government than the average state and, incredibly, $5,000 less per person than New York. And on the other side of the ledger, California in 2007 had the highest-paid classroom teachers in the nation, and yet the Golden State had the second-lowest test scores.

Heard about this on Rush today, and it made my day. Politicians seem to think of people as static objects, to be manipulated with full predictability. Lo and behold, people have the capability to escape the money-grabs of their elected officials. It's sad that time and time again the lesson must be taught.

Based on the excerpts, this article is useless.

89% more jobs created is meaningless because it doesn't account for population of tax vs tax free states.
32% faster income growth is equally meaningless because you don't know how much of it can be accounted for rich people moving into state tax free state to avoid state tax and thus raising average personal growth at a faster rate.

In any case, if the article proves anything, it's that people move to avoid state tax. This article is not applicable to raising federal tax rate argument which is going to remain the same no matter what state you live in. The only way to avoid it is to move countries.

Like I said, useless.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Fargo is alright except for those months, because its right next to Minnesota.

I saw the movie. Nothing looked alright about Fargo at all!

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed

In any case, if the article proves anything, it's that people move to avoid state tax. This article is not applicable to raising federal tax rate argument which is going to remain the same no matter what state you live in. The only way to avoid it is to move countries.

Like I said, useless.

That's EXACTLY the point the article is hammering home with facts and why you don't soak the rich.

 

[techs]

Wow. It's true the rich have a very successful propaganda machine.
Anyone with a brain will figure out that according to the "logic" of this opinion piece then all the rich should be leaving America and all other countries to go to countries with no income taxes, lowest cost of living, etc. But they don't.
And, according to the "logic" of this article every business should leave America and go to the countries with the lowest labor costs. But they don't.


And so to follow thru this opinion pieces rationale we should tax the rich at the same rate as the country with the lowest tax rates and the lowest labor costs.

So I CHALLENGE the writer of this piece to follow thru and get the hell out of my country.

And for those who can't follow simple logic, how come the richest states are the ones with the highest taxes?

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
anyways, this is just another example of the race to the bottom, and another reason federalism sucks. I wonder how much in growth losses and wasted overhead come from the complexities of having to deal with 50 different tax programs between various states?

Or growth possibilities as people get to keep more of their earned wealth and put it back into the private sector. It isnt a one way street.

actually, it largely is. Being able to keep more of your earned income is pretty minor at the kind of tax rates we see in the united states and europe. Otherwise, places like sweden woudl be economically stagnant crap holes. It pretty easy to argue that low income taxes on top income earners has negative effects on growth, its been shown that it makes them lazier, income inequality ( a direct, proven effect of low top-income taxes) has been shown to correlate with low level of development and growth (probably through lack of education and healthcare).

Trying to credit the growth of these states with simply their tax rates is pretty fail as well, since they typically have better weather and are closer to mexico and were largely underdeveloped for the previous 200 years. All of those factors are pretty major.

 

[PokerGuy]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
You want property taxes, I pay about 3.2% of my house's appraised (which matches market) value per year in fvcking property taxes.

Hmm... I pay close to that today, AND I pay income taxes, and sales taxes, and fees etc etc etc. :|

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
there is no reason to consider moving to ND. 2% of your income is worth not living here.

I lived there for 5 years of my life. It isnt bad except for dec, jan, and feb.

I say the same about FL except when it's hot. You know - May, June, July, August, September, October, and November.

<== hates the FL heat

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Fargo is alright except for those months, because its right next to Minnesota.

I saw the movie. Nothing looked alright about Fargo at all!

the movie was also nothing like the town. only 2 minutes of the movie was in fargo anyways, the rest was closer to duluth

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
there is no reason to consider moving to ND. 2% of your income is worth not living here.

I lived there for 5 years of my life. It isnt bad except for dec, jan, and feb.

I say the same about FL except when it's hot. You know - May, June, July, August, September, October, and November.

<== hates the FL heat

florida 'heat' has nothing on north dakota cold.

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Originally posted by: Skoorb
You want property taxes, I pay about 3.2% of my house's appraised (which matches market) value per year in fvcking property taxes.

Hmm... I pay close to that today, AND I pay income taxes, and sales taxes, and fees etc etc etc. :|

I live in North Dallas and my property tax is about 2% of my assessed value...

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
there is no reason to consider moving to ND. 2% of your income is worth not living here.

I lived there for 5 years of my life. It isnt bad except for dec, jan, and feb.

I say the same about FL except when it's hot. You know - May, June, July, August, September, October, and November.

<== hates the FL heat

florida 'heat' has nothing on north dakota cold.

Our heat lasts much longer than ND cold and you can always put on more clothes to stay warm. You can only take off so much and even in your birthday suit mid to high 90's and high humidity sucks anyway.

 

[piasabird]

Colder winters are really tough on cars. There is always snowmobiles.

I was in Utah a while back and since ten years ago it seems like the Housing market has gone crazy. I couldnt believe how built up the state of Utah is compared to its neighbors to the East. It is like rolling out of the desert into a giant Oasis.

 

[theeedude]

Conservative echo chamber in action. Think tank crowd write same old tripe, Murdoch prints it in WSJ, Rush reports, "bloggers" swallow and re-post.

Here is Art Laffer getting self owned:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU6PamCQ6zw

If I had a high income, or was rich, and I was not already living in CA, first thing I would do is move here.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Conservative echo chamber in action. Think tank crowd write same old tripe, Murdoch prints it in WSJ, Rush reports, "bloggers" swallow and re-post.

Here is Art Laffer getting self owned:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU6PamCQ6zw

If I had a high income, or was rich, and I was not already living in CA, first thing I would do is move here.

Ad-hominem.

 

[marincounty]

It seems that the parasite states are having trouble too. Nevada is tanking.

Text

BALANCING ACTS: Nevada is not alone -- budget shortfalls force cuts, tax hikes in all but three states .

Legislature weighs tax hike options

The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a group that monitors state spending, said in a report last month that 47 states face funding shortfalls that are expected to increase in the fiscal year that begins July 1 and continue into 2011.

Nevada's revenue shortfall has been calculated as the nation's largest in terms of percentage

Perez said another favorite way to cover budget shortfalls is to raise cigarette taxes. Three states raised such taxes in recent weeks, and he expects many more will by July 1.

Nevada now levies a per pack tax of 80 cents and has legislation pending that would add an extra buck to that amount
In Nevada, legislators are likely to increase taxes by $1 billion or more within the next 18 days.

State Senate Majority Leader Steven Horsford, D-Las Vegas, said in a recent interview that budgets will be cut by more than $1 billion, but added there is a "shared responsibility" for the shortfall.

All taxes remain under consideration for increases, according to Coffin.

That includes cigarette, liquor and mining taxes. The state's current 0.63 percent modified business tax could be tripled, he added

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
there is no reason to consider moving to ND. 2% of your income is worth not living here.

I lived there for 5 years of my life. It isnt bad except for dec, jan, and feb.

I say the same about FL except when it's hot. You know - May, June, July, August, September, October, and November.

<== hates the FL heat

florida 'heat' has nothing on north dakota cold.

Our heat lasts much longer than ND cold and you can always put on more clothes to stay warm. You can only take off so much and even in your birthday suit mid to high 90's and high humidity sucks anyway.

Come out here to Nevada - mid June -> mid Sept - never below 100 (even 90+ night)

A few years ago, 15 days straight that never went below 110 even at 2AM

 

[QuantumPion]

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Phokus
Also:

""A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both."

-Milton Freidman"

This has to be the most moronic quote when inequality between rich and poor is increasing at an astounding rate

Why is it mornic? Do you understand what the quote is saying?

yeah, economic freedom leaders to more equality, which is ridiculous when middle class wages have been stagnant for a while while the rich have gotten much richer.

I can't believe no one has called Phokus on this statement. Middle class median income has been steadily rising: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...ld_income_65_to_05.png

The rich always get richer because they continue to pursue activities that made them rich in the first place. E.g., creativity, risk-taking, resourcefulness, etc (aside from the corrupt side, such as lawyers, politicians, etc, but these fields are pretty heavily dominated by liberals so we won't go there )

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: QuantumPion

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Phokus
Also:

""A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both."

-Milton Freidman"

This has to be the most moronic quote when inequality between rich and poor is increasing at an astounding rate

Why is it mornic? Do you understand what the quote is saying?

yeah, economic freedom leaders to more equality, which is ridiculous when middle class wages have been stagnant for a while while the rich have gotten much richer.

I can't believe no one has called Phokus on this statement. Middle class median income has been steadily rising: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...ld_income_65_to_05.png

The rich always get richer because they continue to pursue activities that made them rich in the first place. E.g., creativity, risk-taking, resourcefulness, etc (aside from the corrupt side, such as lawyers, politicians, etc, but these fields are pretty heavily dominated by liberals so we won't go there )

We usually let Phokus do what we expect him to do.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: Phokus
Also:

""A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both."

-Milton Freidman"

This has to be the most moronic quote when inequality between rich and poor is increasing at an astounding rate

You are living a lie. Go look where this country was 100 years ago. Go look at where other countries are today, especially in Asia.

You were more tolerable when you were just spouting your crack-pot theories of the grand conservative conspiracy of oppressing blacks.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: QuantumPion

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Phokus
Also:

""A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both."

-Milton Freidman"

This has to be the most moronic quote when inequality between rich and poor is increasing at an astounding rate

Why is it mornic? Do you understand what the quote is saying?

yeah, economic freedom leaders to more equality, which is ridiculous when middle class wages have been stagnant for a while while the rich have gotten much richer.

I can't believe no one has called Phokus on this statement. Middle class median income has been steadily rising: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...ld_income_65_to_05.png

The rich always get richer because they continue to pursue activities that made them rich in the first place. E.g., creativity, risk-taking, resourcefulness, etc (aside from the corrupt side, such as lawyers, politicians, etc, but these fields are pretty heavily dominated by liberals so we won't go there )

Yeah, lets look all the way back to 1965 to prove a point. I meant recently :roll:

Census data show median household income fell 3.8 percent or $1,700, from 1999 to 2004, according to economist Jared Bernstein of the Economic Policy Institute (on whose board I serve.) And this drop occurred during a period when average productivity rose three percent per year.

Moreover, as economist Jeff Madrick has observed in his book ''Why Economies Grow," , the reality is worse because prices of commodities that make us middle class are rising much faster than inflation generally: housing, college education, health care, and also child care. These very rapid price increases are offset by falling costs of consumer electronics, basic food, and clothing, creating misleadingly low inflation measures.

http://www.boston.com/news/glo...ant_wages_made_in_usa/

As for your last remark, funny thing about entrepreneurs, the smartest of the workers/entrepreneurs (i.e. the googles of this world) are typically liberals, gg.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Phokus
Also:

""A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both."

-Milton Freidman"

This has to be the most moronic quote when inequality between rich and poor is increasing at an astounding rate

You are living a lie. Go look where this country was 100 years ago. Go look at where other countries are today, especially in Asia.

You were more tolerable when you were just spouting your crack-pot theories of the grand conservative conspiracy of oppressing blacks.

Facts and logic are like kryptonite to a conservative:

http://www.economist.com/blogs...ating_inequality_1.cfm

According to the Congressional Budget Office?s income inequality data, the top 1 percent of households have seen their incomes go up by 7 percent and the bottom 80 percent have seen their income shares go down by 7 percent. In total that is a $664 billion increase in inequality, representing $7,000 for each household in the bottom 80 percent and nearly $600,000 for each household in the top 1 percent.