So Your Eyeing a Third Party Candidate This Time Around

[fskimospy]

So how does Syria apply to your standard then?

We didn't depose Syria's government and haven't invaded Syria?

 

[fskimospy]

When the Iraqi government engages the Kurds, I hope you have the decency not to call for American intervention to stop it. It appears to be a virtual certainty at some point in the future.

I wouldn't say it's a virtual certainty at all. What are you basing that on?

 

[fskimospy]

Because we are removing the right of self-determination from people of the Middle East at the point of a gun when it has no bearing on our own self-interests. We do it simply because we have the power to do it. That is evil.

Of course it has bearing on our self interest, but that's besides the point. ISIS literally removed the right of self-determination from loads of people of the Middle East at the point of a gun. Interesting that you think fighting against that is the actual evil, not fighting for it.

 

[glenn1]

We didn't have tried unsuccessfully to depose Syria's government and haven't have used proxies to invade Syria?

FTFY

 

[fskimospy]

FTFY

I'm sorry that's pretty wrong on a lot of levels and trying to compare intervention into the Syrian civil war to the invasion of Iraq falls totally flat to me. More importantly, regardless of what you think about US action in Syria we were talking about US assistance to help Iraq recapture one of its own cities from a band of theocratic rapists and murderers. Do you agree with bshole that this action is evil?

 

[bshole]

Of course it has bearing on our self interest, but that's besides the point. ISIS literally removed the right of self-determination from loads of people of the Middle East at the point of a gun. Interesting that you think fighting against that is the actual evil, not fighting for it.

Last time I checked ISIS was largely composed of Iraqis and Syrians. It appears that people that lack your particular point of view lose the right of self determination. You want America to choose the governments in those countries no matter how many of the residents of those countries are alienated. If a party you disapprove of gains power, it then becomes America's divine right to start dropping bombs and starting civil wars.

Over 20% of Syrians support ISIS which closely approximates the number of Iraqis that support America (20%). We are doing things over there that the vast majority of residents disapprove of and hate us for. We are doing it against their popular will. We are creating terrorists at an unprecedented rate by the amount of damage we are inflicting on defenseless people.

 

[bshole]

I'm sorry that's pretty wrong on a lot of levels and trying to compare intervention into the Syrian civil war to the invasion of Iraq falls totally flat to me. More importantly, regardless of what you think about US action in Syria we were talking about US assistance to help Iraq recapture one of its own cities from a band of theocratic rapists and murderers. Do you agree with bshole that this action is evil?

It is more than evil, it is functionally retarded and myopic. This is just setting up a war between the Kurds and the Turkish/Iraqi governments which could get gruesome on a whole new level. We are always shocked when nothing turns out remotely close to what we intended. We are completely incapable of learning.

We are without question the largest force for evil in the world today.

 

[fskimospy]

It is more than evil, it is functionally retarded and myopic. This is just setting up a war between the Kurds and the Turkish/Iraqi governments which could get gruesome on a whole new level. We are always shocked when nothing turns out remotely close to what we intended. We are completely incapable of learning.

I sincerely doubt you have a sufficient understanding of Kurdistan to make any sort of judgment like this. As I mentioned if you think Mosul is going to be the trigger for a Kurd/Turkey/Iraq conflict then Kirkuk is double that and that has been written into the Iraqi Constitution for more than a decade. You should learn more about this topic.

 

[bshole]

I sincerely doubt you have a sufficient understanding of Kurdistan to make any sort of judgment like this. As I mentioned if you think Mosul is going to be the trigger for a Kurd/Turkey/Iraq conflict then Kirkuk is double that and that has been written into the Iraqi Constitution for more than a decade. You should learn more about this topic.

The last time I believed anything our government said about the Middle East was when they told us we would be welcomed as liberators. Since then I have found that reality in general works out to be 180 degrees of what we are told to expect. You are free to believe them if you like. I sincerely hope that I am the one surprised and not you.

My thought is that they need to fight their civil war without American meddling and that America should normalize relations with the victor. We do a shit job when we attempt to pick winners.

 

[fskimospy]

Last time I checked ISIS was largely composed of Iraqis and Syrians. It appears that people that lack your particular point of view lose the right of self determination. You want America to choose the governments in those countries no matter how many of the residents of those countries are alienated. If a party you disapprove of gains power, it then becomes America's divine right to start dropping bombs and starting civil wars.

This is just nonsensical ranting. The people of Iraq have the same right to self-determination as anyone. While the US violated this in 2003 the current government is democratically elected in at least reasonably free and fair elections. If a group of Iraqis decides it wants to break off in order to murder, rape, and pillage cities in that country I have no more sympathy for them than I do for any other group of murderers, rapists, or thieves. You on the other hand have no problem with this, or at least have less of a problem with ongoing mass rape and murder than you do with US efforts to stop it.

Your position is at a minimum deeply immoral, and to me is downright evil. Thankfully very few people share it.

Over 20% of Syrians support ISIS which closely approximates the number of Iraqis that support America (20%). We are doing things over there that the vast majority of residents disapprove of and hate us for. We are doing it against their popular will. We are creating terrorists at an unprecedented rate by the amount of damage we are inflicting on defenseless people.

This is basically word salad. I have no idea why the percentage of Syrians that support ISIS as compared to the percentage of Iraqis that support America in any way informs the idea that the 'vast majority' of residents disapprove of US action in Mosul. In fact, the Iraqi public is pretty split on the issue. While they distrust the US for obvious reasons they loathe ISIS.

 

[Moonbeam]

I believe when everything has been tried and evil will not be dissuaded, those with the means to end it with violence are morally required to do so. There is nothing ambiguous or subjective about evil to the recognition of those who will act so only as a final resort. Standing by while women and children are murdered, please. There are lines you can't allow others to cross no matter the cross one must bear.

 

[interchange]

I seem to recall there being a lot of division among libertarians with the nomination of Gary Johnson in that he was too much of a mainstream Republican. Jesus.

If Bernie had actually taken up Stein's offer, he'd probably be the next president. I suspect the risk of putting Trump in the white house was too great.

 

[Moonbeam]

If Bernie had actually taken up Stein's offer, he'd probably be the next president. I suspect the risk of putting Trump in the white house was too great.

My guess is that it would have been more of a certainty.

 

[BurnItDwn]

I really do love Jon Oliver, but I think Samantha Bee has been amazing and pretty much the very tippy top best of political satire. She was great on the Daily show, she is even greater with her own show. Stewarts semi-retirement has made me sad, but, Samantha has made me happy again, even if it is but once per week.

 

[Chaotic42]

I like Oliver. Some of his ideas are a bit of a reach, but he brings important topics to light, and he should be thanked for that.

 

[glenn1]

This is just nonsensical ranting. The people of Iraq have the same right to self-determination as anyone. While the US violated this in 2003 the current government is democratically elected in at least reasonably free and fair elections. If a group of Iraqis decides it wants to break off in order to murder, rape, and pillage cities in that country I have no more sympathy for them than I do for any other group of murderers, rapists, or thieves. You on the other hand have no problem with this, or at least have less of a problem with ongoing mass rape and murder than you do with US efforts to stop it.

Your position is at a minimum deeply immoral, and to me is downright evil. Thankfully very few people share it.

This is basically word salad. I have no idea why the percentage of Syrians that support ISIS as compared to the percentage of Iraqis that support America in any way informs the idea that the 'vast majority' of residents disapprove of US action in Mosul. In fact, the Iraqi public is pretty split on the issue. While they distrust the US for obvious reasons they loathe ISIS.

Then Hillary Clinton is the perfect candidate for your newly held neoconservative beliefs. You'll make Dick Cheney proud for making his statement come true "Everyone wants to go to Baghdad, real men want to go to Syria."


Edit: really, the default filter censors the name D!ck Cheney? Even if you were using D!ck as an insult word rather than surname he's probably been called worse profanities by his own mother.

 

[interchange]

This is just nonsensical ranting. The people of Iraq have the same right to self-determination as anyone.

It's a psychic agency (or combination of several derivatives depending on your view) that I hold important in American society, but does that make it a universal societal ideal?

Even so, we cannot satisfy all of our psychic needs so we must compromise. Personally I'm very apprehensive about such a statement. There is not one right way to be human, and the character of a person might work drastically differently in different societies.

I'm not saying we should not draw hard ethical lines to protect human rights globally. I'm merely saying we ought not be comfortable that we've done it right or that we have a solution to their violation.

 

[zinfamous]

Edit: really, the default filter censors the name D!ck Cheney? Even if you were using D!ck as an insult word rather than surname he's probably been called worse profanities by his own mother.

Well, it is a vile and offensive phrase!

 

[Jaskalas]

The people of Iraq have the same right to self-determination as anyone.

And Syrians too I'll bet, right after your Rebels fight a war that kills half the country, and displaces the other half as refugees.

 

[bshole]

I'm not saying we should not draw hard ethical lines to protect human rights globally. I'm merely saying we ought not be comfortable that we've done it right or that we have a solution to their violation.

Bombing people to protect human rights in the midst of a civil war... that will work... Of course we only get the lowdown on atrocities of the people we oppose. The atrocities of the people we support are not spoken of in polite conversation. Naturally those atrocities exist but if we pretend that they don't we can assume the moral high ground. Even a cursory look at the players in this drama reveals that there are no good guys. We are siding with individuals that are destabilizing and terrorizing Turkey. Just because our government tells us that this particular group of Islamic extremists is better than that one doesn't mean that we have to believe them. The neocon right could care less. When and if this intervention blows up in our face and escalates into broader conflict with Turkey and the Kurds, the neocon solution will be to turn on the Iraqi and Turkish governments. This is a merry-go round we can ride forever and probably will.

If a group of Iraqis decides it wants to break off in order to murder, rape, and pillage cities in that country I have no more sympathy for them than I do for any other group of murderers, rapists, or thieves.

Oh really.... The people YOU support are:

Based on more than 100 interviews with current and former residents – many of them survivors and activists – and analysis of images and videos from the besieged city, the 74-page report documents “unthinkable atrocities”. These include air strikes that have mostly killed civilians, as well as arbitrary detention and torture by both sides of the conflict, it says.

The report also accuses armed opposition groups of committing war crimes by using improvised and inaccurate artillery against civilians.

It truly is easy to point out the evils of those you oppose while acting ignorant of the evils of those you support. This stuff is not a secret to anybody in the age of the internet. You support one band of butchers over another band of butchers and you want America to bomb people to ensure that the correct band of butchers is in power.

 

[MajinCry]

Doesn't ISIS have quite a few lads from Saddam's regime, who were trained and armed by the US? The whole perpetual war thing, with the US covering itself in white bathwater, is pretty obvious to the rest of the world.

And if you honestly believe that the US military is a morally righteous entity...Erm. Looking at it's history would quickly dispel that, as well as the fact that rape is SOP for those lads. Soldier worship's dumb.

 

[fskimospy]

And Syrians too I'll bet, right after your Rebels fight a war that kills half the country, and displaces the other half as refugees.

How dare people who are being murdered by their own government fight back! The nerve of some people!

 

[fskimospy]

Then Hillary Clinton is the perfect candidate for your newly held neoconservative beliefs. You'll make Dick Cheney proud for making his statement come true "Everyone wants to go to Baghdad, real men want to go to Syria."

Edit: really, the default filter censors the name D!ck Cheney? Even if you were using D!ck as an insult word rather than surname he's probably been called worse profanities by his own mother.

I don't think you understand what neoconservatism is because nothing I wrote is a neoconservative viewpoint.

Also, only one of the candidates for president is calling for an invasion of Syria and it sure isn't Clinton.

 

[Victorian Gray]

I wouldn't say it's a virtual certainty at all. What are you basing that on?

Hysteria.

 

[Moonbeam]

I've heard it said that Liberals are so open-minded and amenable to different points of view that they become easily morally paralyzed. It's sad to see so much of that in this thread and nice to see that some Liberals here don't drown when faced with terrible alternatives. Its sad that the fear of doing something evil, the contemplation of terrible ramifications and unintended results, can lead to moral paralysis. No serious mind, facing the slaughter of children by terrorists believes that actions taken to stop them can't lead to other terrible things. No serious mind believes that there is any action is right. But surely one must pick up the cross and suffer the dirt one gets on ones hands. I do not accept a world where children are butchered because I can't have everything I want. On the contrary, one must be willing to give up everything one has it seems to me.