So you are flying around in an F14, F15, F16 or F18

[Mister T]

And a sam locks onto you and is homing in. WHat the hell are you supposed to do and what should you not do?.
This question was inspired by the sequence in the movie, Behind Enemy Lines.

-- Should you light up the afterburners and try to outrun it? Or will the increase heat signature make you a better target?
-- How fast do sams fly at and how high can they hit you?
-- How many G's can a sam pull?
-- Does dropping fuel tanks and/or firing a missle at a mountain for example - causing a large fire - fool the tracking of a SAM?
-- Out of the 4 planes mentioned, what plane would you want to be in if a sam was chasing you.
-- Do chafes and flares work, and what is a chafe?

My pick: F15 because of the thrust/weight...... Am I wrong?

 

[MrBond]

<< what is a chafe? >>

Its a bunch of long, metal, strips used to confuse missles that would have locked on to the large metal signature of the plane.

 

[Vortex22]

chafe (chaff?) Is tiny metal fibers designed to confuse radar I think.

 

[FirmPete]

I think I'd eject.

 

[Gunbuster]

You pick the VF-1 since even a kid from macross can doge or shoot down at least 50 missiles

 

[Baffler]

Dont know so much about sams but I do learned this while doing my miltary service.
A sam can do a CRAPLOAD of more G:s than a human ie you can prolly not turn faster than a sam.

 

[Train]

Im not sure which plane would be the best, id pick the f-16 just cuz its my favorite and i used to build models of them. I think F-14 would be the worst choice, too big, gotta be the hottest one of them all too. The f-16 is the only single engine fighter in the bunch, so it just might have an advantage as far as the heat seeking thing goes, chafe is basically a bunch of tin foil chopped into strips, good for fooling air to air missiles, but not your typical sam, heat flares would be much better, most planes these days have both. Pilots who do low flying attack missions (f16 and f18 pilots do these, so would more likely be in position to be chased by a sam, f15 and f14 are more long range air dominace roles, you wouldnt see them going in low over hostile land too often) The pilots are probably well trained in missile avoidance, ever watch the movie (cant think of the name) where they were flying A-6 intruders over vietnam and they pretty much were dodging sams all the time? well, they usually turned INTO the sam if it was fired from a side angle, giving the missile less time to adjust, and then theyd either pull up or pull hard to the opposite side the sam was turning, then once past it, the missile is basically lost, and they got the hell out of there.

 

[Bulk Beef]

<< A sam can do a CRAPLOAD of more G:s than a human ie you can never ever turn faster than a sam. >>


I don't think that's true. A missle has little wing area relative to a fighter, so it's not very nimble. Pilots in Vietnam didn't generally have too much trouble dodging them, as long as there was only one. The problem they would run into would be two or three SAMs, one after the other. Dodge the first one, get nailed by the second or third.

 

[BP]

I'd do whatever evasive manouvers training told me to do and release chaff or flares depending on what kind of sam was targeting me.

As far as the plane goes, I'd opt for any of the two engined fighters. SAM's explode when their system says they're close enough, so if you don't get one up the tailpipe and it explodes just far enough away to cause damage, having that extra engine might just be the difference between getting home and sitting in a prison camp....or worse.

 

[Kntx]

<< << A sam can do a CRAPLOAD of more G:s than a human ie you can never ever turn faster than a sam. >> >>




Tis' True, missles can pull like 20-30 g's.






<< I don't think that's true. A missle has little wing area relative to a fighter, so it's not very nimble. >>



The limiting factor isn't the plane... It's the person in the plane.

 

[BP]

<<

<< A sam can do a CRAPLOAD of more G:s than a human ie you can never ever turn faster than a sam. >>


I don't think that's true. A missle has little wing area relative to a fighter, so it's not very nimble. Pilots in Vietnam didn't generally have too much trouble dodging them, as long as there was only one. The problem they would run into would be two or three SAMs, one after the other. Dodge the first one, get nailed by the second or third. >>



SAM's can pull up to and over 30 g's.

 

[thelanx]

I think SAMs are much faster than fighters, so although SAMs have less maneuverablility, they have more speed. I hard part is dodging fast enough and sharp enough before the SAM reaches you. Turning at it would cut down on the SAMs reaction time. The best choice would probably to eject.

 

[BP]

<<

<< A sam can do a CRAPLOAD of more G:s than a human ie you can never ever turn faster than a sam. >>


I don't think that's true. A missle has little wing area relative to a fighter, so it's not very nimble. . >>



In way that's true....but for the wrong reason.

Sam's are FAST, Mach 3+ for the most part. But at that speed it doesn't take much of a turn to cause high g's. So a plane that can pull 9 g's at 450mph can probably turn as tight at that speed as a 30 g Mach 3 or 4 sam.

 

[Baffler]

<< Pilots in Vietnam didn't generally have too much trouble dodging them, as long as there was only one >>


True, but that was a couple of years ago.
Whatever, I did a search and found the following page LINK

 

[Bulk Beef]

<< Sam's are FAST, Mach 3+ for the most part. But at that speed it doesn't take much of a turn to cause high g's. So a plane that can pull 9 g's at 450mph can probably turn as tight at that speed as a 30 g Mach 3 or 4 sam. >>


That makes sense. I'm not arguing with a missile's abilty to pull high gs, just the "never turn faster than a sam" statement.


<< Whatever, I did a search and found the following page >>


I found the same page.

 

[Baffler]

<< That makes sense. I'm not arguing with a missile's abilty to pull high gs, just the "never turn faster than a sam" statement >>


True, im changing it to prolly not turn faster than a SAM statement

 

[guyver01]

I would drop a few flares drop some chaff, climb and bank as hard and as fast as i can. Mebbe pull a Split-S or an Immelman to evade.

 

[Bulk Beef]

<< True, im changing it to prolly not turn faster than a SAM statement >>


Yeah, never say never.
That page is kind of interesting. They even have numbers on the German Wasserfall. Amazing to think of how close they were to having this kind of thing operational.

 

[notfred]

<< I would drop a few flares drop some chaff, climb and bank as hard and as fast as i can. Mebbe pull a Split-S or an Immelman to evade. >>



Do you even know what the Immelman is? It was created in WWI. It leaves your plane going real slow for a little while. This was great in WWI, because by the point where you plane is about to stall, you're out of the gun range of the other plane, which only flies 75mph. However, with missles with a range of up to 50 miles now, Pointing your airplane at the sky and waiting for it to slow down doesn't sound like the greatest option.

I'd copy the chapter on "Missle Threat Reaction" out of my Falcon 4.0 manual (Which was written by an actual F-16 pilot), but it's kinda long.

 

[dawheat]

i'm guessing if its an IR missile- drop a few flares and cut the throttle as you bank hard - keeping your engines angled away from the infared seeker - give it a more attractive heat source. Also I'm pretty sure most IR missles have a pretty short range- if the missile was popped 5-10 miles away, I'd think about going to zone 3 and out running it. I think most IR missles max out at 10 or so miles, so that whole dodging it 20 times is a load of crock. If it passes you once, you've won that round.

Radar guided missiles I'm not quite sure. I know they can have a range up to 50-100 miles, so probably turn to minimize radar cross section to the guiding radar, drop low and dump some chaffe.

 

[guyver01]

<<

<< I would drop a few flares drop some chaff, climb and bank as hard and as fast as i can. Mebbe pull a Split-S or an Immelman to evade. >>



Do you even know what the Immelman is? It was created in WWI. It leaves your plane going real slow for a little while. This was great in WWI, because by the point where you plane is about to stall, you're out of the gun range of the other plane, which only flies 75mph. However, with missles with a range of up to 50 miles now, Pointing your airplane at the sky and waiting for it to slow down doesn't sound like the greatest option.

I'd copy the chapter on "Missle Threat Reaction" out of my Falcon 4.0 manual (Which was written by an actual F-16 pilot), but it's kinda long. >>



yes, which makes it the PERFECT maneuver (at least on paper) for evading a SAM... you stall your plane... if it's heat seaking, it now locks onto the flare... most SAM are heat seaking i think.

 

[SuperGroove]

I'd think that you would:

Maintain a 3-9 visual on the SAM, dump chaff and flare, and maneuver just in time before the SAM gets there...perhaps pulling down and into it, increasing workload while reducing reaction time on the same. Something like that often worked for me in Falcon 4.0. If I had numerous AA-11s fired at me though...I'd probably go through all the flares, then by perhaps the third AA-11, i'd be toast. Of course, Falcon 4.0 is a simulation...dunno nothing about the real world




<< SAMs are very lethal now. The Python developed by the Israeli's has this touted feature known as the Kill zone, or something to that effect. Within in that range, the missile will not miss. Doesn't hurt the fact that it has an off-bore sight capability.

-- Should you light up the afterburners and try to outrun it? Or will the increase heat signature make you a better target? [If you're high up and relatively far away with a fast plane, this is viable. [/b]
-- How fast do sams fly at and how high can they hit you? Some fly past mach 3, at up to 100,000ft[/B[
-- How many G's can a sam pull? 20-30G
-- Does dropping fuel tanks and/or firing a missle at a mountain for example - causing a large fire - fool the tracking of a SAM? SAMs are highly turned to differentiate between radar sizes, ir sizes, and heat signature. Dropping tanks is a must anyways, can't turn with those suckers on[/b]
-- Out of the 4 planes mentioned, what plane would you want to be in if a sam was chasing you. the F-14 because it is everything the F-15 is with widely spaced engined, and a second set of eyes
-- Do chafes and flares work, and what is a chafe? Chaff - reflective material, that is used to give back false returns to a radar fooling the radar into thinking chaff is the plane. Flare - Used to defeat IR systems. Made out of some sort of magnesium combination that emits very high heat.[B/] >>




SAMs. The Devil. Can't even fly below 500ft without being hit by a SAM. Damn Stingers.

 

[EagleKeeper]

SAMs are radar guided. Flares do not have any impact on them.

Wait for the SAM to get close, kick out chaff and break down and away from the missile. The missile can not turn with you and may still track the chaff. You need to get far enough away that if the missile does self destruct based on proximity distance increasing, shrapnel will not catch you.

Any of the aircraft offered can handle the manuever, problem is the quality of the pilot and the threat warning equipment.

 

[guyver01]

<< SAMs are radar guided. Flares do not have any impact on them.

Wait for the SAM to get close, kick out chaff and break down and away from the missile. The missile can not turn with you and may still track the chaff. You need to get far enough away that if the missile does self destruct based on proximity distance increasing, shrapnel will not catch you.

Any of the aircraft offered can handle the manuever, problem is the quality of the pilot and the threat warning equipment. >>



i'll trust you.. with a name like EagleKeeper you must work with F15 Strike Eagles... either that or i'm wayyyyy off base.

The only experience i have with SAMs are from Gunship and Falcon 4.0

 

[notfred]

<< yes, which makes it the PERFECT maneuver (at least on paper) for evading a SAM... you stall your plane... if it's heat seaking, it now locks onto the flare... most SAM are heat seaking i think. >>



Definition of a stall, from a pilot's perspective:



<< Stalling an aeroplane has nothing to do with stopping the engine, it's all about airflow over the wings. The wings need a reasonable amount of airflow over them before they start working. At high airspeeds the air flows nicely over the wing and creates lift. At very low airspeeds the air breaks up as it hits the wing and a turbulent airflow is created giving no lift at all. The stall speed is the airspeed at which smooth flow turns to turbulent flow.

What this means is that an aeroplane will only fly if it is travelling at a speed higher than the stall speed. If the pilot allows the airspeed to decay to less than the stall speed, the aeroplane falls out of the sky like an aerodynamically shaped brick (ie. very fast). Unfortunately this is extremely easy to do if you aren't concentrating. However there are lots of warning signs and pilots are all drilled in what to do when it happens so crashes due to stalls are fairly rare. When they do happen, it's usually because the stall induced a wing drop. >>



Yeah, so, learn what you're talking about.