So why has Obamacare failed to live up to it's hype of cheap insurace?

[Lithium381]

We would have to not only get everyone on board with paying taxes for it, but also compensating everyone associated with the insurance industry. You can't just wipe out an entire industry without due compensation. Those countries everyone likes to use as examples for universal healthcare has even the bottom classes paying taxes. Meanwhile we have half our country effectively pays no income taxes and still bitches that it isn't fair.

Big point that went unanswered.

 

[spidey07]

You are a sucker if you think "pre-existing conditions" means ANYTHING. This was a made up term by the insurance companies to use as an excuse to drop people or to not have to pay for coverage because it got in the way of profit. You are just stupid enough to believe them.

When someone is dropped from coverage when they get cancer because 10 years ago they had undeclared acne, it has nothing to do with "pre-existing conditions." It has to do with profit.

Good job you braindead follower! Lap up what your corporate masters have taught you!

If that happens then again it is the fault if th person who let their insurance lapse. Stupid is supposed to hurt.

It is highly stupid to ever let insurance go. The fault lies entirely on the person.

 

[pauldun170]

[/B]
Big point that went unanswered.

That talking point was answered several years ago if I recall
For example
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/url.cfm?ID=901335

1. The poorest and the richest Americans pay no taxes.
About 45 percent of households will owe no federal income tax in 2010, according to our estimates. Half of them earn too little, while the other half -- mostly middle- and lower-income households -- will take advantage of tax credits such as the earned income credit, the child and child-care credits, the American Opportunity and Lifetime Learning credits, which help pay for college, and the saver's credit, which subsidizes retirement saving.
But even citizens who pay no income tax still pay other kinds of taxes. They pay Social Security and Medicare taxes when they work, sales taxes when they buy things and property taxes on their homes. Drivers pay gasoline taxes, and smokers and drinkers pay excise taxes on tobacco and alcohol. According to our research, more than 75 percent of us will pay at least some form of federal tax in 2010.
Those who pay no federal taxes are mostly the low-income elderly or very poor families with children. Even about half of those with annual incomes under $10,000 pay some federal tax, most often payroll taxes on wages.

 

[spidey07]

Correct. Almost half pay zero federal income tax.

 

[shadow9d9]

If that happens then again it is the fault if th person who let their insurance lapse. Stupid is supposed to hurt.

It is highly stupid to ever let insurance go. The fault lies entirely on the person.

There was no insurance lapse.

The whole idea of "pre-existing conditions" is completely made up nonsense by insurance companies to screw people for profit.

Insurance companies shouldn't exist for healthcare, outside of on a supplemental basis.

 

[shadow9d9]

Correct. Almost half pay zero federal income tax.

False.

The 51 percent and 46 percent figures are anomalies that reflect the unique circumstances of the past few years, when the economic downturn greatly swelled the number of Americans with low incomes. The figures for 2009 are particularly anomalous; in that year, temporary tax cuts that the 2009 Recovery Act created — including the “Making Work Pay” tax credit and an exclusion from tax of the first $2,400 in unemployment benefits — were in effect and removed millions of Americans from the federal income tax rolls. Both of these temporary tax measures have since expired.

In 2007, before the economy turned down, 40 percent of households did not owe federal income tax. This figure more closely reflects the percentage that do not owe income tax in normal economic times.[4]

These figures cover only the federal income tax and ignore the substantial amounts of other federal taxes — especially the payroll tax — that many of these households pay. As a result, these figures greatly overstate the share of households that do not pay federal taxes. Tax Policy Center data show that only about 17 percent of households did not pay any federal income tax or payroll tax in 2009, despite the high unemployment and temporary tax cuts that marked that year.[5] In 2007, a more typical year, the figure was 14 percent. This percentage would be even lower if it reflected other federal taxes that households pay, including excise taxes on gasoline and other items.

Most of the people who pay neither federal income tax nor payroll taxes are low-income people who are elderly, unable to work due to a serious disability, or students, most of whom subsequently become taxpayers. (In years like the last few, this group also includes a significant number of people who have been unemployed the entire year and cannot find work.)
Moreover, low-income households as a group do, in fact, pay federal taxes. Congressional Budget Office data show that the poorest fifth of households paid an average of 4.0 percent of their incomes in federal taxes in 2007, the latest year for which these data are available — not an insignificant amount given how modest these households’ incomes are; the poorest fifth of households had average income of $18,400 in 2007.[6] The next-to-the bottom fifth — those with incomes between $20,500 and $34,300 in 2007 — paid an average of 10.6 percent of their incomes in federal taxes.

Moreover, even these figures greatly understatelow-income households’ totaltax burden because these households also pay substantial state and local taxes. Data from the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy show that the poorest fifth of households paid a stunning 12.3 percent of their incomes in state and local taxes in 2011.[7]
When all federal, state, and local taxes are taken into account, the bottom fifth of households pays about 16 percent of their incomes in taxes, on average. The second-poorest fifth pays about 21 percent.[8]

It also is important to consider who the people are who do not owe federal income tax in a given year.
TPC estimates show that 61 percent of those that owed no federal income tax in a given year are working households.[9] These people do pay payroll taxes as well as federal excise taxes, and, as noted, state and local taxes. Most of these working households also pay federal income tax in other years, when their incomes are higher — which can be seen by looking at the low-income working households that receive the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC).

The leading study of this issue found that the majority of households that receive the EITC get it for only one or two years at a time, such as when their income drops due to a temporary layoff, and pay federal income tax in most other years. The study examined the filers who claimed the EITC at least once during an 18-year periodand found that they paid a net of several hundred billion dollars in federal income tax over that period.[10] This finding shows that while some households will receive refundable tax credits in a given year whose value may exceed their payroll tax liability, they pay significant federal income taxes over time in addition to the payroll and state and local taxes they pay each year.

The remainder of those who pay no income tax are primarily elderly, disabled, or students.



Temporary tax cuts. Policymakers responded to the deep economic contraction by enacting policies to stimulate consumer demand, including targeted public investments and temporary tax cuts that removed millions more Americans from the tax rolls. Roughly 95 percent of working families benefited from the Recovery Act’s Making Work Pay tax credit, which reduced their federal income tax liability in both 2009 and 2010 by $400 for individuals and $800 for married couples. For some of these people, this tax credit eliminated their federal tax liability entirely. Other temporary income tax cuts, including the exclusion of the first $2,400 in unemployment insurance benefits and a first-time homebuyer tax credit, eliminated federal income tax liability for additional taxpayers in 2009.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3505

Stop spreading bullshit.

Additionally, don't cut taxes for people just so you can then use that against them and complain that people aren't paying federal taxes you fucking moron.

 

[lotus503]

Correct. Almost half pay zero federal income tax.

Incorrect, almost everyone pays Fed income tax but about half after deductions get a return.

 

[spidey07]

Incorrect, almost everyone pays Fed income tax but about half after deductions get a return.

False. Almost half pay zero dollars in federal income tax.

None. Zero. Nothing. Their federal income tax liability is zero.

 

[pauldun170]

Correct. Almost half pay zero federal income tax.

The statement is misleading
I pay federal income taxes.
I get deductions for kids, tuition, mortgage and I'm head of household.
There have been some years where my refund = yearly federal income tax

Of the 43 percent of households that will owe no federal income tax this year, nearly half will be off the rolls because their incomes are too low. The rest won’t pay because preferences wipe out the taxes they would otherwise owe. Many of those preferences, such as the Earned Income Tax Credit and the Child Tax Credit, are social policy run through the tax code. If those provisions were considered spending rather than tax cuts, many more people would be counted among income tax payers. (Indeed, for budgetary purposes, much of the value of those tax credits is considered an outlay.)

Fully two-thirds of households that pay no federal income tax have workers that pay payroll taxes. Most American workers pay more in Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes than income taxes. Just 14 percent of households pay neither income nor payroll tax and two-thirds of them are elderly.

Most of the rest are younger households with no workers and income under $20,000. They pay no income taxes because they have little or no income. The remaining 1 percent mostly benefit from the tax code’s many exclusions, deductions, exemptions, and credits that wipe out the income tax they would otherwise owe.
- See more at: http://taxvox.taxpolicycenter.org/2...y-no-federal-income-tax/#sthash.K6xpP4Ke.dpuf

43% owe no taxes

Of that 43%
- 21.5% due to income being to low (covers everyone from college kids with part time jobs to people in poverty)
- 14% are in a household that pays federal income taxes.
- 21.5% are people who have things like "Mortgages" and "Tuition Bills" and "Children" who simply itemize their deductions and have a few things that work out well come tax time.

 

[lotus503]

False. Almost half pay zero dollars in federal income tax.

None. Zero. Nothing. Their federal income tax liability is zero.

Incorrect - Paying tax and getting a refund is not the same as paying no tax at all.

Whats the difference you may ask?

If I paid no tax at all throughout the year then I would have additional working capital throughout the year. But no these people pay tax throughout the year, when they file and outline deductions they get a return of money paid without interest.

 

[Lithium381]

Incorrect - Paying tax and getting a refund is not the same as paying no tax at all.

Whats the difference you may ask?

If I paid no tax at all throughout the year then I would have additional working capital throughout the year. But no these people pay tax throughout the year, when they file and outline deductions they get a return of money paid without interest.

Serious question - if your tax liability is calculated to be under the first tax brackets threshold, based on dependents and all that. . . do they even withhold during the year?

 

[spidey07]

You could adjust your exemptions or claim exempt if you don't want federal income tax withheld.

Fact remains. Almost half pay zero federal income tax. Indisputable fact.

 

[pauldun170]

Incorrect - Paying tax and getting a refund is not the same as paying no tax at all.

Whats the difference you may ask?

If I paid no tax at all throughout the year then I would have additional working capital throughout the year. But no these people pay tax throughout the year, when they file and outline deductions they get a return of money paid without interest.

The federal government still gets use of your money throughout the year.

 

[Lithium381]

You could adjust your exemptions or claim exempt if you don't want federal income tax withheld.

Fact remains. Almost half pay zero federal income tax. Indisputable fact.

There is actually a law against "under withholding". .

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc306.html

 

[spidey07]

Yes. But if you know your federal tax libility is zero you can claim exempt and not have them withheld.

Fact remains almost half pay zero federal income tax.

 

[lotus503]

Serious question - if your tax liability is calculated to be under the first tax brackets threshold, based on dependents and all that. . . do they even withhold during the year?

I think it depends on the amount you claim? I know people who claim 8 and get a massive refund but still pay something each check.

If that number was 15 would they pay each check I don't know.

Point is the premise than half the country doesn't pay tax is false, the truth is a lot of people have no net tax burden, but they still pay each month and are unable to reap the rewards of that income during the year, via interest or others ways to make use of the capital.

 

[Vic]

The real question is: why do the Republicans hate their own health plan so much?

 

[lotus503]

Yes. But if you know your federal tax libility is zero you can claim exempt and not have them withheld.

Fact remains almost half pay zero federal income tax.

Show or demonstrate that half of the country files exempt.

I agree that nearly half the country doesn't not have a net tax burden. but thats not the same as paying no taxes. Most people pay tax throughout the year, file and with deductions get return, sometimes that makes the yearly burden 0.

But they still have paid tax.

 

[pauldun170]

The real question is: why do the Republicans hate their own health plan so much?

That's a really good question.

 

[glenn1]

Incorrect - Paying tax and getting a refund is not the same as paying no tax at all.

Whats the difference you may ask?

If I paid no tax at all throughout the year then I would have additional working capital throughout the year. But no these people pay tax throughout the year, when they file and outline deductions they get a return of money paid without interest.

No one cares about some broke ass fuckers who don't pay taxes despite your protestations they actually pay them but get them refunded; distinction without a difference. But people do care about being asked to pay for those broke ass fucks to get health care provide them at no cost. The vast majority of Americans who do have health care (like 80 percent of people) just don't want uninsured people to die on our front door steps, not give them Obamacare.

 

[Vic]

Yes. But if you know your federal tax libility is zero you can claim exempt and not have them withheld.

Fact remains almost half pay zero federal income tax.

Most companies will not allow an employee to claim exempt on their W-4. Though they can claim 9 deductions which is almost the same thing.

Spidey, why do you still believe the old Reagan myth that only poor Democrats pay no federal income tax? The truth is that the 47% consists of voters from both parties.

 

[Sonikku]

Everyone (who is conservative and selfish) thinks this until they or a loved one comes down with a pre-existing condition. You don't care about that slice of the pie until it's time to reach your own hand out. Then you're all for it. What would you say to a 20 year old who contracts breast cancer while working two jobs, neither of which provides insurance? She didn't fail to take care of herself. Cancer is random.

If by 20 you still don't have an excellent job with great health coverage then you deserve to die.

 

[lotus503]

No one cares about some broke ass fuckers who don't pay taxes despite your protestations they actually pay them but get them refunded; distinction without a difference. But people do care about being asked to pay for those broke ass fucks to get health care provide them at no cost. The vast majority of Americans who do have health care (like 80 percent of people) just don't want uninsured people to die on our front door steps, not give them Obamacare.

The bolded is incorrect, If I pay no tax at all I am free throughout the year to put that money to work for me, to make more money, fix my car, eat better food etc.

When I pay tax throughout the year but get a return I get that money returned absent of interest and the ability to use that money during the year.

To your second point you do pay for that healthcare anyways, just via emergency room visits and higher premiums.

When people are really sick or hurt they seek medical attention with or without medicare coverage.

 

[pauldun170]

If by 20 you still don't have an excellent job with great health coverage then you deserve to die.

At 20 years old I would hope they are in
College
Military
Union job\Apprenticeship.

Otherwise they would be under parents policy.
If they lack parents and works a shit job then they have bigger issues. Might be a good time to hit a recruiter for one of the above.

 

[1prophet]

Most other developed countries have had universal healthcare coverage for decades now as they've realised that it's to everyone's benefit.

It takes a special kind of idiot to think that it fucks them over.

Along with tight reigns on the costs of medical procedures and drug companies, not the monopoly like the pharmaceutical companies have here,

that's why obamacare is a feel good farce, pointing at Europeans healthcare as an example but refusing to fix the runaway costs bought by the lobbying of the pharmaceutical industry.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/13/us/the-soaring-cost-of-a-simple-breath.html

With its high prescription prices, the United States spends far more per capita on medicines than other developed countries. Drugs account for 10 percent of the country’s $2.7 trillion annual health bill, even though the average American takes fewer prescription medicines than people in France or Canada, said Gerard Anderson, who studies medical pricing at the Bloomberg School of Public Health at Johns Hopkins University.



Americans also use more generic medications than patients in any other developed country. The growth of generics has led to cheap pharmacy specials — under $7 a month — for some treatments for high cholesterol and high blood pressure, as well as the popular sleeping pill Ambien.



But many generics are still expensive, even if insurers are paying the bulk of the bill. Generic Augmentin, one of the most common antibiotics, retails for $80 to $120 for a 10-day prescription ($400 for the brand-name version). Generic Concerta, a mainstay of treating attention deficit disorder, retails for $75 to $150 per month, even with pharmacy discount coupons. For some conditions, including asthma, there are few generics available.



While the United States is famous for break-the-bank cancer drugs, the high price of many commonly used medications contributes heavily to health care costs and certainly causes more widespread anguish, since many insurance policies offer only partial coverage for medicines.



In 2012, generics increased in price an average of 5.3 percent, and brand-name medicines by more than 25 percent, according to a recent study by the Health Care Cost Institute, reflecting the sky-high prices of some newer drugs for cancer and immune diseases.



While prescription drug spending fell slightly last year, in part because of the recession, it is expected to rise sharply as the economy recovers and as millions of Americans become insured under the Affordable Care Act, said Murray Aitken, the executive director of IMS Health, a leading tracker of pharmaceutical trends.



Unlike other countries, where the government directly or indirectly sets an allowed national wholesale price for each drug, the United States leaves prices to market competition among pharmaceutical companies, including generic drug makers.


But competition is often a mirage in today’s health care arena — a surprising number of lifesaving drugs are made by only one manufacturer — and businesses often successfully blunt market forces.



Asthma inhalers, for example, are protected by strings of patents — for pumps, delivery systems and production processes — that are hard to skirt to make generic alternatives, even when the medicines they contain are old, as they almost all are.



The repatenting of older drugs like some birth control pills, insulin and colchicine, the primary treatment for gout, has rendered medicines that once cost pennies many times more expensive.



“The increases are stunning, and it’s very injurious to patients,” said Dr. Robert Morrow, a family practitioner in the Bronx. “Colchicine is a drug you could find in Egyptian mummies.”



Pharmaceutical companies also buttress high prices by choosing to sell a medicine by prescription, rather than over the counter, so that insurers cover a price tag that would be unacceptable to consumers paying full freight. They even pay generic drug makers not to produce cut-rate competitors in a controversial scheme called pay for delay.



Thanks in part to the $250 million last year spent on lobbying for pharmaceutical and health products — more than even the defense industry — the government allows such practices. Lawmakers in Washington have forbidden Medicare, the largest government purchaser of health care, to negotiate drug prices.Unlike its counterparts in other countries, the United States Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute, which evaluates treatments for coverage by federal programs, is not allowed to consider cost comparisons or cost-effectiveness in its recommendations. And importation of prescription medicines from abroad is illegal, even personal purchases from mail-order pharmacies.