so why buy the 6xx series ? (august '12)

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cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Everyone is a little different. Maybe it's there and you just don't notice it enough to complain. It's never really gone with vsync off no matter the framerate but I find it less of an intrusion when my FPS is higher.

One of those things that might bother one person a ton and they want to figure out how to get rid of it while someone else can simply ignore it.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Oh boy, not this again. I'm sure both of you have had quad-SLI experience and zero hard lock/CTD issues. There's a reason why people like myself and others (l88bastard, levesque, tsm106, vega, etc.) use 7970s for multimonitor setups instead of our 680/690s and microstuttering is obviously not one of them. There's barely any microstutter from both vendors unless I max out the AA/AF at 5760x1200.

Ya, probably because you decided to save $1000+ dollars. :thumbsup:

3x 1080P 4AA
$1,000 GTX680 SLI = 43.5 (21.4 min)
$880 HD7970 GE CF = 56.5 (24.3 min)
$2,000 GTX690 SLI = 61.5 fps (22.6 min)

Who wants to pay $1100 more for 5 fps average gain? :rolleyes:

NV 670 SLI is awesome for 1 monitor, but buying NV cards for 3 monitors is like throwing $ into the toilet. :sneaky:

As far as single GPUs go, 1320mhz+ GTX680 lost to a 1250mhz HD7970 that costs less. Max OCed MSI Lighting 680 can't even match a stock 1050mhz 7970 Ghz edition in Sleeping Dogs that just came out despite costing $100+ more. When are people going to stop linking BF3 as the most important game? GTX680 now loses in 5 major games: Skyrim+Mods, Batman with MSAA, Dirt Showdown, Sniper Elite and Sleeping dogs.

09_dogs.png


When I had NV cards and I would run into driver issues, I wouldn't throw those cards out the window but wait for a fix. It seems when NV users try out an AMD card and run into the slightest driver problem, they right away scream driver issues, while from my experience both NV and AMD have driver issues and both fix them if you just wait for 1-2 driver releases.

To imply that NV cards don't have driver problems is for the laughs since many of us here go back and forth between both brands. While the general consensus is that SLI > CF for 1 monitor, for single-GPUs, it's a wash.

I said it before the loyal NV audience which thinks NV is the "premium brand" won't buy an AMD card unless it's 2x faster for 50% less.

There is nothing premium about GTX670/680 PC or quality components against a 7970. It's the small things that stand-out like EVGA's customer service on the NV side. Still, NV won't even allow voltage overclocking on most 670/680 which means the reference design is built to just meet the specs. Let's not even start talking about blown-up VRMs of GTX570/590s.

The only thing premium about NV vs. AMD Graphics is its marketing. It's head and shoulders above AMDs. It's hard to argue that NV has better features since both sides have features that neither has.
 
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hokies83

Senior member
Oct 3, 2010
837
2
76
Heh In a month when Nvidia releases new drivers and performance in games goes up 8=30% the Nvidia people will just remake a thread just like this...

When is it ever going to stop...

I owned 2 HD7970s both had defects and driver issues.. with multi driver installed and clean installs of windows probs never went away. they had 63% Asic ratings Handling them they felt cheap imo...

Both my 680s have 100% Asic rating which seems to be the norm for kepler 90%-100% ( im sure someone will say Asic does not mean anything or Nvidia has Gpu-z in there pay roll)

Both cards feel better built to me...

And atleast with my System Other then Dirt Showdown the 7970s got afew less Fps on Avg then the 680s both at there 24/7 Overclocks...


Now this was with 12.7 Driver Vs the 3.04 beta of Nvidia...

I do not need someone elses Benchmark to show me anything that i seen with my own two eyes on my own system...

And just for the sake of not being called a lier or a fanboy...

200x200px-ZC-556eecbb_SAM_0932.jpeg


LL


LL


LL
 
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McWatt

Senior member
Feb 25, 2010
405
0
71
I won't be buying either brand this generation but in the past I've split evenly between the two after switching from 3dfx. Until my current 580 I spent two generations in a row with ATI cards, which really drove home the point that when I have an ATI card I spend a small but noticeable fraction of my life trying to fix ATI-specific problems, while I've never had a serious nV problem with hardware or software. If there were detailed statistical data on hardware reliability and software problems from each company I'd heed their conclusions, but given that this information isn't publicly available I'm going to follow the still significant result I've seen in my admittedly small personal dataset and avoid ATI until there's at least a factor of 2 performance advantage driving me in that direction.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Hey hokies83, how come blackened23 didn't have these issues? Also, I've seen so many people on our board post ASIC 100% for Kepler cards. It doesn't mean squat if a single GTX680 can't beat a 70% ASIC 7970 in games.

Also, your particular example is a $1000 setup. What about everyone else who buys cards under $600? You think people who buy AMD cards just throw hundreds of dollars to put up with AMD drivers generation after generation? When I switched from GTX470s I had no problems with my 6950 for 1.5 years.

If AMD drivers were so awful, why in the world would Apple use their GPUs and why would 50%+ of mobile AMD discrete GPU users keep buying AMD cards? Makes no sense at all. Your specific issues relate to 2% of the market that buys $1000 GPU setups and then doesn't want to wait for patches/driver fixes.

I frequent GameGPU.ru for all my game reviews and you know how many times GTX590 had SLI scaling issues in their tests? I also had GTX470s. Don't even go there trying to paint NV as having magical bullet-proof drivers. If NV had such amazing drivers, there is no way I would have gotten rid of my 470s and gotten a 6950 that supposedly wouldn't even work half the time based on what you guys are saying.
 

DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,391
31
91
AMD takes a penalty for their drivers.

Nvidia screwed the pooch with power consumption in the 400 and 500 series. With the 600 series, this no longer applies.

$190 7850 with free Deus Ex sounds like a winner to me, though.
 

PCTC2

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2007
3,892
33
91
Let's see... Red... Green... Blue...
AMD... NVIDIA... Intel...
FFFFFF = White.

The best color is white. 'nuff said.
 

BD231

Lifer
Feb 26, 2001
10,568
138
106
If nvidia's current lineup didn't suck so hard I wouldn't be using this 480. 660Ti is crap due to bandwidth, 670/680 are oc limited due to throttling at 70c, their top teir card is barely 20 to 25% faster than their last top tier card, you only get a 50watt difference in power consumption and you get the pleasure of paying out the ass for it all.

Paying a premium for getting next to nothing is unacceptable.
 

Jacky60

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2010
1,123
0
0
Green has two 'e'
Red has one 'e'
Hence nVidia is better

That's why S3, 3Dfx and Matrox are out of the GPU game. Their names have no 'e'.

At last a proper analysis of the market. In the UK the 680 is at least £50 ($80) more than a 7970 Ghz edition so imho you'd be a moron to buy the 680 BUT most consumers are led by the nose to buy products by marketing campaigns and few bother to actually research which products are better. Most people are sheep who avoid analysing the choices they have and follow the flock.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
This will probably degenerate into a name-calling thread if it hasn't already, but I'll give you my thoughts on the matter.

1. Nvidia has a better reputation/brand image than AMD. That matters to many people.
2. Nvidia is a more stable company than AMD and is likely to still be around in 5 years.
3. Even if the power difference is minor, people can feel good about themselves by using less power while gaming with Nvidia.
4. A potential future SLI upgrade with NV is more likely to be beneficial due to the consistently better sli (vs crossfire) performance.
5. With NV you can buy cards that exhaust the heat out the back of the case without dealing with the hassle of ear plugs or custom fan profiles.

And, as many long-time posters will attest, I am very pro-AMD. I owned an x1950xt, 3870, and 4850 in the past, and I only went to NV after that because they had better price/performance at my price point the last couple times I bought cards. If I bought a card today I would buy a 7950 btw, but I think that this gen's pricing generally sucks for both camps so I'm holding out for the next gen.

1, Yes, nVidia is perceived as better. I'm not sure why, for people who know better, that is a reason to buy their cards, though?

2, I personally don't think AMD is going away. Besides, 5 years is an eternity in the tech business. Apple could buy Intel by then, for all we know. (Just making a point. Not saying there's any real chance of that happening.)

3, The 670 and 680 are more efficient gamers. If that were a problem though Fermi would have buried nVidia. I don't understand why it's such a big issue for AMD. Especially considering the efficiency delta is smaller than what it was for Evergreen vs. Fermi.

4, I've already had a big back and forth on Crossfire. It works fine. As far as consistent goes, the same argument could be made in reverse for Eyefinity/Surround where AMD has had more consistent performance. Both are very small markets though.

5, Have you not heard of the IceQ cooler? exhausts out of the case and is very quiet. Besides, while it's given a bit of lip service you can probably count the number of posters on this board on one hand (with fingers left over) that would consider that in their buying decision. I happen to be one of them. I actually consider it a very desirable feature.

I'll add some on the red side of the ledger.

The 7000 series is a better all around performer. The 600 series is bandwidth limited, which is only going to become a bigger weakness as time goes by, and compute limited. Both Direct compute and OpenCL are weaknesses for nVidia this series. Again, likely to become a bigger problem as time goes on. And I don't mean someday. It's becoming an issue now, with games relying more on direct compute, and it's going to continue happening.

Some nVidia features that are listed as a reason to but them are so niche that they don't even get reviewed. How important is PhysX when, even in games that use it, nVidia doesn't even feel it's important enough to have the reviewers turn it on? CUDA is another one. How important is it really when it's rarely, if ever, even tested? 3D? While both companies support it, neither seems to think it matters enough to have reviewers even sample it except in rare reviews. When the going gets real tough though, these features are usually paraded out as reasons nVidia is better.

While everyone wants to tout nVidia driver stability, what about the stability of the hardware itself? How many cards have had bios updates this gen already to address stability issues? 3... 4...? Not exactly a strong point when considering a purchase.

How about having to go months waiting for product to even purchase when they could just buy AMD and be playing games? You want to buy a card for less than $300 (last week it would have been $400) you can buy Pitcairn and have the latest performance and features. If you want nVidia you are stuck with leftover cards from last generation.

Just so you don't think I'm name calling. :p Whether you are right or I am isn't important. The fact that a majority of the people would agree with you is what matters. That gets back to number "1". That's really what matters when you break it down. AMD needs to fix that if they don't want to have to continuously have to undercut nVidia's pricing to be competitive in the market.
 

sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
14,184
626
126
What I don't get is why I always see 7970 compared to the 670. Wasn't it made to be compared to the 680? Or do people do that because of their price?
 

flopper

Senior member
Dec 16, 2005
739
19
76
7900 series has better hardware than Nvidias serie.
asic 56%, 1200mhz when gaming 7970 120hz eyefunity for me, no issues with drivers at all.
suspect usererror is common.
There also been a lot of partners that didnt make proper cooling the asus dc series come to mind there.

at 1920x1080 there are no practical difference in use for the consumer, trying to convey tests that show a 5fps difference its like high comedy.
paying a ton more money for 5fps sounds like you know a defense speech whenever who done that opens their mouth.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
Both my 680s have 100% Asic rating which seems to be the norm for kepler 90%-100% ( im sure someone will say Asic does not mean anything or Nvidia has Gpu-z in there pay roll)

FYI W1zzard says the Asic reading is broken for Kepler. It means nothing since he doesn't have the info he needs to implement it properly.

edit:
ASIC reading means nothing for Kepler, and that's been stated by W1zzard himself (the author of GPU-Z), about a week ago.

Beaten to the punch with link referenced (Which I couldn't be bothered to look up.). +1 :thumbsup:
 
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PCboy

Senior member
Jul 9, 2001
847
0
0
Ya, probably because you decided to save $1000+ dollars. :thumbsup:.

Money is no object when I need the best performance. I do agree with your entire post but to clarify, the main reasons I went with the 7970s were actually:

1) More Memory - I should've waited for the 4GB versions but I didn't think I would hit the VRAM limit so easily when ramping up the textures. Live and learn.

2) Higher Overclockability - DCII is overrated... only one card reached 1322c/7000m, the other one is stuck at 1282 @ 1.175v. I'm thinking of raising it some more but I think I'd have to build another watercooling loop.

3) Native PCI-E 3.0 - I kept getting nvlddmkm errors when I had 3.0 enabled on my X79. I would black screen / crash when playing games and then continue back to normal. I remembered using this but it still didn't help. It was getting annoying so I reverted it back to 2.0 until 304.79 came out which finally fixed it but I'm sure the difference in PCI-E speeds was negligible but if you're maximizing performance, you might as well get as much as you can get.

4) Future Multi-monitor Setups - As far as I know, GTX680s cannot run 5x1 monitor setups and with those Catleaps being so cheap, I was tempted to sell my U2412s and buy 5 of em and start playing in portrait mode. It looks pretty awesome if you've seen the setup.
 
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bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
because some games greatly favor nVidia...

http://www.techspot.com/review/522-tribes-ascend-performance-test/page3.html

if you play a lot of one if not many of those games (I play a ton of Tribes), you'd pretty much be a fool to go AMD, or vice versa for any of the games that favor AMD. This isn't rocket surgery. Either the card has the performance/features for the games you intend to play or it doesn't.

for all the people that get seriously flustered over this subject, you probably shouldn't have spent so much money on your video card if you need to justify that decision so badly
 

The Alias

Senior member
Aug 22, 2012
647
58
91
because some games greatly favor nVidia...

http://www.techspot.com/review/522-tribes-ascend-performance-test/page3.html

if you play a lot of one if not many of those games (I play a ton of Tribes), you'd pretty much be a fool to go AMD, or vice versa for any of the games that favor AMD. This isn't rocket surgery. Either the card has the performance/features for the games you intend to play or it doesn't.

for all the people that get seriously flustered over this subject, you probably shouldn't have spent so much money on your video card if you need to justify that decision so badly

ok I get that although I thought they made major driver improvements to that game
 

JohnnyChuttz

Member
May 20, 2012
117
0
71
AMD's are poverty cards and I would not dream of demeaning myself in such a manner.

Really, I just wanted to do an i5/i7(ended up with i7 due to the price at Microcenter) and Nvidia build.
 

B-Riz

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2011
1,482
612
136
AMD's are poverty cards and I would not dream of demeaning myself in such a manner.

Really, I just wanted to do an i5/i7(ended up with i7 due to the price at Microcenter) and Nvidia build.

LOL, If I was not married and had other expenses in life, I would have a balls to the wall GTX 680 or GTX 690 (for BF3 performance).

Last nVidia I bought was 6600 GT.

The wallet said 7950 3GB is good enough for the next 1.5 - 2 yrs.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
because some games greatly favor nVidia...

http://www.techspot.com/review/522-tribes-ascend-performance-test/page3.html

if you play a lot of one if not many of those games (I play a ton of Tribes), you'd pretty much be a fool to go AMD, or vice versa for any of the games that favor AMD. This isn't rocket surgery. Either the card has the performance/features for the games you intend to play or it doesn't.

for all the people that get seriously flustered over this subject, you probably shouldn't have spent so much money on your video card if you need to justify that decision so badly

This post should end the thread. There is a whole slew of reasons back and forth but this post examines the main thing. GAMES! Yes...beyond benchmarks there are people who like to play games with high quality visuals and high framerates. Sometimes one particular card destroys the other and in a different game it goes the other way. The only way to evaluate a gpu setup's worth is to examine the games you are going to play and determine which would offer you the best experience.
 

The Alias

Senior member
Aug 22, 2012
647
58
91
This post should end the thread. There is a whole slew of reasons back and forth but this post examines the main thing. GAMES! Yes...beyond benchmarks there are people who like to play games with high quality visuals and high framerates. Sometimes one particular card destroys the other and in a different game it goes the other way. The only way to evaluate a gpu setup's worth is to examine the games you are going to play and determine which would offer you the best experience.
but we don't buy these things for just current performance what if you buy another game you love outside of your current library next year that nvidia tanks in because of bandwidth limitations so you have to look at its performance in more games than just the one you play and determine if the performance delta in one particular set of games you play is worth being stubbed in the wide variety because eventually you'll want to try something new

for example let's say you're a fan of both fps and racing games you got the 670 over the 7970 because of its enhanced ability in bf3 and cod4 but when you wanted to try out dirt showdown you have to turn down the visual quality and your experience suffers for it . same goes for games with direct compute components, games that use bandwidth, and if you like high amounts of aa

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-660-ti-benchmark-review,3279-2.html
 

96Firebird

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 2010
5,712
316
126
but we don't buy these things for just current performance what if you buy another game you love outside of your current library next year that nvidia tanks in because of bandwidth limitations so you have to look at its performance in more games than just the one you play and determine if the performance delta in one particular set of games you play is worth being stubbed in the wide variety because eventually you'll want to try something new

for example let's say you're a fan of both fps and racing games you got the 670 over the 7970 because of its enhanced ability in bf3 and cod4 but when you wanted to try out dirt showdown you have to turn down the visual quality and your experience suffers for it . same goes for games with direct compute components, games that use bandwidth, and if you like high amounts of aa

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-660-ti-benchmark-review,3279-2.html

The same could be said with respect to Nvidia's developer relationships. Nvidia could continue their trend of supporting more developers with TWIMTBP games, or AMD could up their involvement with GE games.

The future is an unknown, it's best to leave it that way.
 

The Alias

Senior member
Aug 22, 2012
647
58
91
The same could be said with respect to Nvidia's developer relationships. Nvidia could continue their trend of supporting more developers with TWIMTBP games, or AMD could up their involvement with GE games.

The future is an unknown, it's best to leave it that way.
not as likely because the next gen consoles will all be running amd gpus so devs will program more for amd strengths than nvidia so given all the factors in play it will likely shift in amds favor

the future is only a calculation of factors of the past just do the math amd you'll have a grasp of it
 
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bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
91
bryan do you have any specific info that says AMD is going to be out of business in the next 5 years? Because if you don't, then your argument seems unwarranted. I tend to believe that if AMD has not been killed off by Intel by now, it's not going to happen. AMD has the strongest lineup they have ever had, the exception unfortunately is in the enthusiast and server CPU space which is really dragging them down.

AnandThenMan, do you have any specific info that says that God doesn't exist? If not, then God clearly exists and your argument seems unwarranted.

I like AMD a lot, but their company hasn't made (very much) money in 6 years. Their chief competitor is the biggest/baddest/best in the tech world. Their secondary competitor is the biggest/baddest/best in the gpu market. Besides, I never said that they were going away, I simply said that was one thing that might cross a person's mind when making a purchasing decision.

Month Ago Nvidia Was faster.. this month Amd is faster...

Next month Nvidia will be faster.... Who gives a crap...

All i care about Is driver issues... And Amd is famous for those never had an Issue with Nvidia thats why i have Nvidia.

Do a little homework before spouting this FUD. NV has better sli drivers these days, but AMD has been just as solid if not better with single gpu drivers for years.
 
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