So what is it with Apple products?

[Aikouka]

The absolute max theoretical speed of a wireless n with all the bells and whistles is 150 mbps. Realisitically you will be lucky to get 2/3 of that speed.

Per channel, yes, but given the popularization of MIMO, we're seeing much faster connections. Although, they're just multiples of 150. I think the Airport Extreme is MIMO3x2, but don't quote me on that.

 

[slackerinabox]

Reoccuring reboots are a sign of defective hardware. Routers typically get that way rather frequently as they tend to run too hot. Proper ventilation is key in preserving your router. Also avoid refurbished routers and take some load off their processor by connecting all wired computers via a dumb switch.


The absolute max theoretical speed of a wireless n with all the bells and whistles is 150 mbps. Realisitically you will be lucky to get 2/3 of that speed.

Gigabit ethernet gives you 1 gbps simultaneously per direction (so, 2gpbs bi-drectional speed) and predates wireless n by 10 years. wireless n was ratified Oct 2009 and gigE in 1999.
GigE has been standard in every motherboard for the last 3-4 years or so while wireless n for less than a year. There is also 10 gpbs ethernet (requires cat6) which is still expensive and non ubiquitous today, despite being out since 2002

the above speeds are in bits. A modern HDD can easily read/write 100+ MiB/s which is 800 mbps. Not SSDs, HDD. Good ones do over 120 which would max out gigE.

So, not only is your wireless n NOT as fast as wired. It limits you to nearly 1/10th the speed you could get with gigE. Not only that, you lose out jumbo frames (slower connection, much higher CPU usage), have interference slow you down further, have higher CPU usages (for wireless in general, stacks with loss of jumbo frames), higher power consumption, security concerns, it takes longer for your OS to establish the connection, and it requires manual configurations (mess with passwords and the like when with wired its plug it and it works)

The speed isn't noticeably different when you stream a movie... but try copying a file and you will notice immediately that it is 10 times slower

I would accept your claims that their router is rock solid, but don't give me that nonsense about wireless as fast as wired.

Sorry, I moved from 10/100 to gigabit, and I'm getting around 70mbs copying from my desktop (wired) to my laptop (n). I was getting barely 1/3rd of that on my past routers, including my belkin (n router)

 

[taltamir]

Per channel, yes, but given the popularization of MIMO, we're seeing much faster connections. Although, they're just multiples of 150. I think the Airport Extreme is MIMO3x2, but don't quote me on that.

Ugh, I fail. I remembered it was much slower as well as having MIMO (optional, what i meant by bells and whistles) so I looked it up to see the EXACT number before posting. I failed at reading though and got 150mbps... the standard allows up to 4x4:4 MIMO setup giving 4 150mpbs streams for 600 (again though realistically you are not getting more than 2/3 of that amount) but in reality you see 2x3:2, 2x2:2, 3x2:2, 3x3:2 and very recently some 3x3:3 devices.

If the Airport extreme is 3x2:2 though then it isn't getting more than 300mpbs theoretical and 200mpbs realistic. 1/5th gigE, better than 1/10th but still a lot slower and very limiting even on HDD file transfers.

I know that on my wireless n http://www.dlink.com/DIR-655 device I will plug a laptop to a cable (gigE) if I plan on doing any actual transfers. Well, used to, I gave the router to my friend so he could stream HD video from his fileserver to his media center PC and now I have a wireless G, but every single computer & server is plugged in via gigE w/ 9K jumbo frames (actually greatly benefits transfer rates and reduces CPU usage a lot). I only use the wireless rarely with my laptop and never for large file transfers

 

[slackerinabox]

which were the 30$ and which was 100$?

Personally I find linksys & belkin suck. Netgear is so so... D-Link is fairly good.

belkin n600, linksys (the classic g router hacked to dd-wrt), and a netgear dual band (forgot the model number)

 

[taltamir]

Sorry, I moved from 10/100 to gigabit, and I'm getting around 70mbs copying from my desktop (wired) to my laptop (n). I was getting barely 1/3rd of that on my past routers, including my belkin (n router)

Are you getting 70mpbs, or 70MiB/s?
Because 70MiB/s = 560mpbs
Windows tells you file copy rates at MiB/s not in mbps. specfically.. Windows tells you transfer rate in MibiBytes per second (MiB/s), INCORRECTLY calls it MegaBytes per second (MB/s), and it is completely different than MegaBits Per Second (mbps aka mb/s aka Mib/s ... note capitalization)

If your belkin was doing 1/3 of 70MiB/s then it was doing 70/3 * 8 = ~186.66666666666666666666666666667 mpbs
A reaslistic speed for a 2x2:2 wireless n router (300mpbs theoretical, 200mpbs realistic... if you are lucky).

Latest gen HDDs can do 120MiB/s but if your HDD is a 2-3 gen old then it is limited to about 70MiB/s. 1 gen old HDDs get about 100MiB/s

Also, you do not need a gigE ethernet router to get gigE... A gigE switch plugged in to gigE plugs on a computer/laptop will give it to you even if it is also plugged in to 100T router. But regardless, you should be using gigE switch even with a gigE router... switches are very durable and it takes the load off the router which is very fragile. Plus you will see a speed increase using a switch over a router, even with the same company (going from DIR655 to DIR655 plugged in via 30$ dlink switch did improve performance)
get either this 5 port:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16833127324
or this 8 port:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16833127325
dumb switches for practically nothing ($37.54 for the 8 port one).

And you can also enable jumbo frames to make it go even faster.

 

[slackerinabox]

Are you getting 70mpbs, or 70MiB/s?
Because 70MiB/s = 560mpbs

Latest gen HDDs can do 120MiB/s but if your HDD is a 2-3 gen old then it is limited to about 70MiB/s. 1 gen old HDDs get about 100MiB/s

Here's a chart with some better facts than I can state since I'm def. not a networking expert - http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/4670/appleairportextreme.png

Also - ordering a gigE switch - which brand do you recommend? Have a ton of devices and currently hooked up my old linksys (dhcp and wifi disabled) to my airport extreme, but know that's not ideal (and the router's at least 6 years old)

EDIT: That's what I get for multitasking at work! Just saw your recommendations, ordering now.

Thanks!

 

[taltamir]

Here's a chart with some better facts than I can state since I'm def. not a networking expert - http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/4670/appleairportextreme.png

Also - ordering a gigE switch - which brand do you recommend? Have a ton of devices and currently hooked up my old linksys (dhcp and wifi disabled) to my airport extreme, but know that's not ideal (and the router's at least 6 years old)

the chart is in Mbps = mpbs... if you want to know its speed in MiB/s (aka what windows tells you in file copy) divide everything by 8. However, it seems to test individual bands rather then concurrent transmission of the router as a whole. Can the router do all 3 at once? Probably not.
Would doing all 3 at once maintain max speed in all? Probably not.

But if it could then it would be 70+70+80= 240 mpbs = 30MiB/s

 

[Aikouka]

I own a few D-Link Gig-E switches, and they work fine.

One thing I've always wondered... why is there an 'i' in the abbreviation for megabytes? I always use MB/s or MBps, and I find it easier to understand by correlation as the letter 'B' is physically larger than 'b' and a byte is bigger than a bit.

EDIT:

One thing I've been wanting to do is use Network Teaming (combining multiple NICs into one) on my server, but my network "topology" makes it worthless.

modem > router > switch 1 > server
modem > router > main desktop
modem > router > switch 2 > Apple TV
modem > router > switch 3 > HTPC

These are my main routes when it comes to media, and the fact that the server is localized on its own switch creates a problem. I could consider purchasing an 8-port Gig-E switch and try teaming. I'd just connect the router to the switch.

modem > router > main switch > server
modem > router > main switch > main desktop
modem > router > main switch > switch 1 > Apple TV
modem > router > main switch > switch 2 > HTPC

This way... my server is at the same level (or higher) than all other devices. Although, I'm not sure if it would be better to purchase a more advanced switch if I wanted to do something like this. I'm not a networking guru or anything like that. :|

 

[taltamir]

One thing I've always wondered... why is there an 'i' in the abbreviation for megabytes? I always use MB/s or MBps, and I find it easier to understand by correlation as the letter 'B' is physically larger than 'b' and a byte is bigger than a bit.

M stands for Mega, a scientific standard notation that means 10^6
K for kilo aka 10^3, G for giga aka 10^9, etc.

however, microsoft and other OS used, for convenience, what they termed "binary kilo/mega/giga/etc" which is a binary approximation of those measurements. kilo is 2^10 aka 1024. mega is 2^20 aka 1024*1024. Giga is 2^30 aka 1024*1024*1024

This caused no end of confusion, especially where all HDD makers decided to go by the standard decimal definition as it gives a bigger number (100GB drive = 100/(1.024^3) = 93.1322574615478515625 GB in binary estimation).

To resolve the issue the binary estimation was formalized in 1999 into what is now being called a "Binary Kilo" aka "Kibi", "Binary Mega" aka "Mebi", "Binary Giga" aka "Gibi" etc... and it a new symbol for it was created, KiB, MiB, GiB, etc. It was defined by the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) in 1999 and has been accepted for use by all major standards organizations.

Thus MiB = MebiByte. which is 2^20 bytes. It is an unambiguous term.

It is still a mix of decimal and binary though. 100 MiB for example, 100 is decimal, MiB is binary. So GiB = 1024MiB. MiB = 1024 KiB.

 

[taltamir]

modem > router > main switch > server
modem > router > main switch > main desktop
modem > router > main switch > switch 1 > Apple TV
modem > router > main switch > switch 2 > HTPC

1. I don't know if you can do network teaming with that switch. Or any non super expensive corporate switch.
2. I don't think you will see any benefit from teaming unless you copying files from one RAID0 array to another, or one SSD to another.
3. Why do apple TV and HTPC each have their own switch?
Can't you do:
modem > router > main switch > server
modem > router > main switch > main desktop
modem > router > main switch > Apple TV
modem > router > main switch > HTPC[/QUOTE]

That way the route from apple TV to your server for example would only go through the main switch.

Having nested switches is fine though. For example you could have a server room with a modem, router, switch, and server.
Plug that in as Modem > Router > Switch 1 > Server

Now run a cable from server room to your bedroom and do Switch 1 <> Desktop
Run a second cable from server room to gaming room, put a switch in there called switch 2.
Plug switch 1 to switch 2.
Plug your HTPC, Xbox360, and PS3 to switch 2.

That is a valid configuration that works well, one I set up in my parents house. Having the extra switch in between makes very little difference. (it does affect you slightly, but only slightly). The important part is excluding your router from wired communication between computers. All wired communication should go computer A > One or more switches > Computer B.
The router will then only be hit up for wired connections to the internet or wireless connections between computers.

 

[Aikouka]

The network topology is actually a bit more dense than what I showed:

modem > router > desktop
modem > router > switch 1 > server
modem > router > switch 1 > desktop 2
modem > router > switch 1 > printer
modem > router > switch 2 > Apple TV
modem > router > switch 2 > XBOX 360
modem > router > switch 2 > PS3
modem > router > switch 3 > HTPC
modem > router > switch 3 > XBOX 360
modem > router > switch 3 > PS3

... or I guess I could have just said they're all in separate rooms.

 

[taltamir]

Ah, I see... well in such a situation I would connect the router to a switch... lets call it switch 0.
Then hook up to switch 0: the desktop, switch 1, switch 2, and switch 3.