Discussion So what happen to 10mm and .41 AE?

[gill77]

Over penetration seems to be your top concern. Perhaps you should just resign yourself to using frangible ammo.

Keep looking, find a weapon that speaks to you, one that you can see yourself running lots of rounds through.

If you take the time to learn properly, and with repetition, you will gain confidence that your gun will go bang when you ask it to and the bullet goes where you intend.

Perhaps test it out on some dry wall so you know exactly the penetration you are dealing with.

Best of luck.

 

[Jackson18]

Over penetration seems to be your top concern. Perhaps you should just resign yourself to using frangible ammo.

i guess,im just wondering if caliber isnt really what should be my concern in terms of over penetration.because i always thought that had some to do with over penetration

 

[rommelrommel]

yeah but that's the point. it's "more powerful" (i.e. harder to control in defense/combat situations) but not enough to bring any real advantage, like a 357 or 44 would.

10mm is right up with 357.

10mm also makes for some interesting performance in a pistol caliber carbine.

 

[glenn1]

so really,picking a caliber because of over penetration isnt that important?

also,nobody has told me 9mm is a whimpy round.but i dont know,i guess i just figured id like something with a bit more power then a 9mm

IIRC .25 is the caliber that causes most fatalities in the U.S. with .32 being a close second. Makes sense as those are what most "concealable" handguns are chambered in and thus the choice of gang and drug shooters. Don't pay any attention to what people say about "minimum" caliber size or take as gospel that 9mm is the minimum requirement. That's like the people saying don't buy a car unless it has a V6 engine, trust me even a 3 cylinder SmartFor2 can still reach highway speeds and a .22LR is more than enough for self defense if that's what you have. Use whatever you can best hit the target with and don't worry about what caliber that winds up being.

 

[whm1974]

IIRC .25 is the caliber that causes most fatalities in the U.S. with .32 being a close second. Makes sense as those are what most "concealable" handguns are chambered in and thus the choice of gang and drug shooters. Don't pay any attention to what people say about "minimum" caliber size or take as gospel that 9mm is the minimum requirement. That's like the people saying don't buy a car unless it has a V6 engine, trust me even a 3 cylinder SmartFor2 can still reach highway speeds and a .22LR is more than enough for self defense if that's what you have. Use whatever you can best hit the target with and don't worry about what caliber that winds up being.

Didn't .25 and .32 Cal handguns took a really big drop in popularity over the last 10 to 20 years at least? The only thing going for them is that most of them are cheap.

 

[Jackson18]

Use whatever you can best hit the target with and don't worry about what caliber that winds up being.

so on the subject of over penetration.caliber really doesnt matter?

ive thought about just sticking with a 9mm and buying an ar 15 though,i dont know.maybe its just personal expierance with 9mm handguns(a family member has a beretta thats 9mm and ive shot it before and didnt really care much for it)but ive always kinda been more interested in stuff thats more powerful then 9mm

unless different brands perform differently.because this was a beretta 9mm and ive never shot any other 9mm before

 

[whm1974]

so on the subject of over penetration.caliber really doesnt matter?

ive thought about just sticking with a 9mm and buying an ar 15 though,i dont know.maybe its just personal expierance with 9mm handguns(a family member has a beretta thats 9mm and ive shot it before and didnt really care much for it)but ive always kinda been more interested in stuff thats more powerful then 9mm

unless different brands perform differently.because this was a beretta 9mm and ive never shot any other 9mm before

Different loads perform differently. Nearly if not all top ammo manufacturers offer self-defense loads.

 

[Jackson18]

Nearly if not all top ammo manufacturers offer self-defense loads.

so lets say i wanted something .40 caliber instead of 9mm(i guess glock would be a good brand to be an example of).what would i get in terms of "self defense loads"so i wouldnt have to worry about over penetration

also,im not saying that i think beretta is a bad brand.maybe its just the 9mm ive shot and seen shot before that a family member had,i guess im just specifically wanting a glock thats .40 caliber

 

[glenn1]

so on the subject of over penetration.caliber really doesnt matter?

ive thought about just sticking with a 9mm and buying an ar 15 though,i dont know.maybe its just personal expierance with 9mm handguns(a family member has a beretta thats 9mm and ive shot it before and didnt really care much for it)but ive always kinda been more interested in stuff thats more powerful then 9mm

unless different brands perform differently.because this was a beretta 9mm and ive never shot any other 9mm before

If over-penetration is your concern just use frangible ammunition like Glaser safety slugs. Or reconsider using a firearm altogether if excess penetration is an unavoidable problem.

Glaser Safety Slug - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[whm1974]

so lets say i wanted something .40 caliber instead of 9mm(i guess glock would be a good brand to be an example of).what would i get in terms of "self defense loads"so i wouldnt have to worry about over penetration

also,im not saying that i think beretta is a bad brand.maybe its just the 9mm ive shot and seen shot before that a family member had,i guess im just specifically wanting a glock thats .40 caliber

I shoot a .40 Cal first before buying. Also keep in mind 9mm is cheaper then .40, and can be had at discounts.

 

[Jackson18]

I shoot a .40 Cal first before buying. Also keep in mind 9mm is cheaper then .40, and can be had at discounts.

yeah,my issue with 9mm is just.id perfer something with a bit more power to it.but i dont know,ive wondered lately if i shouldnt just buy a 9mm anyway and go with something like an ar 15

i wonder if alot of my issue when it comes to 9mm is because ive seen and shot a family members beretta that was 9mm and didnt really care much for it.or do different brands perform differently because im not exactly saying im against 9mm its just,i dont know.i didnt really like beretta m9

 

[whm1974]

yeah,my issue with 9mm is just.id perfer something with a bit more power to it.but i dont know,ive wondered lately if i shouldnt just buy a 9mm anyway and go with something like an ar 15

i wonder if alot of my issue when it comes to 9mm is because ive seen and shot a family members beretta that was 9mm and didnt really care much for it.or do different brands perform differently because im not exactly saying im against 9mm its just,i dont know.i didnt really like beretta m9

There are other models and brands of 9mm Cal handguns. There are even 9mm revolvers if that is your thing.

 

[Jackson18]

There are other models and brands of 9mm Cal handguns. There are even 9mm revolvers if that is your thing.

yeah,but wouldnt they all perform the same though? ive looked at glock 19's before

 

[UsandThem]

yeah,but wouldnt they all perform the same though? ive looked at glock 19's before

Go to a gun range where you can rent different handguns, and try them out.

yeah,my issue with 9mm is just.id perfer something with a bit more power to it.but i dont know,ive wondered lately if i shouldnt just buy a 9mm anyway and go with something like an ar 15

In this thread, you have said "over penetration" so many times, yet you are considering an AR15?

i wonder if alot of my issue when it comes to 9mm is because ive seen and shot a family members beretta that was 9mm and didnt really care much for it.or do different brands perform differently because im not exactly saying im against 9mm its just,i dont know.i didnt really like beretta m9

That would be like saying you once drove a 4-cylinder car, and you didn't really like it, so you are ruling out all 4-cylinder cars going foward. You might want to go to a firearm forum and do a little reading (or better yet, go to your local range / gun shop).

 

[whm1974]

yeah,but wouldnt they all perform the same though? ive looked at glock 19's before

Perhaps but some models may be more comfortable to shoot then others, along with having better feel in hand and grip.

 

[whm1974]

@Jackson18 I have to ask but have you owned a handgun before? If you haven't I advise trying out Double Action revolvers as they easier for those new to handguns and firearms in general to deal with.

 

[Jackson18]

@Jackson18 I have to ask but have you owned a handgun before?

ive shot handguns before(like my point with beretta 9mm),but ill admit.ive never actually owned one

 

[gorobei]

since no one really answered the OP.

so before the 1980's for Law Enforcement all you had was 9mm .45 and .357/.38spl for duty rounds. when the FBI Miami shootout was analyzed they came to the conclusion that the 9mm .38spl rounds the agents used were insufficient. thus began the search for the magic bullet that resulted in 10mm.

the fbi went to s&w for a semi auto in the slated 10mm, and ended up with the model 1076. because of the length of the 10mm round this meant using the large frame of sw 3rd/4th gen pistols. (if you ever held a 4th gen, it could be charitably called the 2x4 of grip ergonomics. they really felt terrible.) the large frame meant it didnt fit a good portion of fbi agent's hands. poor grip and the higher recoil of 10mm full load(200gr @ 1200fps) resulted in a bunch of agents not qualifying on the shooting certification. to solve this problem they down loaded the round to 180 gr @ ~1000fps becoming the "10mm lite" or "10mm FBI".

s&w figured out that with the cut down powder load you could shorten the case and make it fit in their med frame pistols. thus .40sw was born. (i started my LE career around this time so there was a ton of debate about 357 vs 9mm vs 40 vs 10 vs 45.)

10mm in full loading is meant to have most of the upside of its predecessors: 200 gr weight of .45, 1200fps velocity of 357, closer to the hi capacity magazines of 9mm. it shoots very flat because of the higher velocity. back then shotgun slugs and ARs werent normally issued to patrol officers, so rounds that could potentially penetrate a car engine block had some allure. there were some experiments with 10mm in H&K smg where the extra foot-pounds could be better dealt with and provide more terminal impact.

40sw supplanted 10mm in the civilian market and so ammo makers cut/dropped production.

unfortunately this led to the silly trend of other gun makers wanting their name on a round leading to .357sig, .400corbon .45gap.

in the glock20, 10mm is perfectly controllable and far more pleasant to shoot than 40sw in a glock23.(caveat: without the ny trigger required for most LE glocks.)

the gulf war post 9-11 resulted in the astronomic pricing of ammo, so most US shooters prioritized lower prices of common rounds which meant 'exotic' calibers went by the wayside.

i still like 10mm, but sadly my ammo stash of it is worth more than my glock20.

 

[Jackson18]

how often do the fbi and law enforcement really use handguns though? you'd think in a life or death situation when shit hits the fan,they'd rather use something like a shotgun or an assault rifle

 

[UsandThem]

how often do the fbi and law enforcement really use handguns though? you'd think in a life or death situation when shit hits the fan,they'd rather use something like a shotgun or an assault rifle

Every day?

Each type of weapon has its pros/cons. At this point I'm not sure if you're serious or trolling.

 

[Paladin3]

I respectfully suggest that if Jackson18 asks any more questions before he goes to a range and actually shoots a few different pistols in various calibers that we stop answering him. Or until he takes a safety class that includes some range time and practical experience with a gun.

 

[whm1974]

how often do the fbi and law enforcement really use handguns though? you'd think in a life or death situation when shit hits the fan,they'd rather use something like a shotgun or an assault rifle

The answer would be: Most of the time. Handguns are a great deal easier to carry and is right there within reach of the LEO when needed quickly, especially when there is a life or death situation.

 

[whm1974]

@Paladin3 and @gill77 Which one(or both)of you mentioned you had LE experience? What I said in post #72 is mostly correct right? AFAIK the police only bring out long arms when they know there might be or will be a problem.

 

[gill77]

@Paladin3 and @gill77 Which one(or both)of you mentioned you had LE experience? What I said in post #72 is mostly correct right? AFAIK the police only bring out long arms when they know there might be or will be a problem.

I have zero LE experience, but I shot with them a lot.

When I was prepping for my ride along with a deputy who knew me quite well, I was told that I could not come armed, but if the shtf, the AR was in the trunk. Get it out and use it.

 

[whm1974]

I have zero LE experience, but I shot with them a lot.

When I was prepping for my ride along with a deputy who knew me quite well, I was told that I could not come armed, but if the shtf, the AR was in the trunk. Get it out and use it.

Wasn't the Ruger Mini-14 popular among Police Departments for a long due to budget constraints?