Discussion So what happen to 10mm and .41 AE?

[squirrel dog]

Glock G20 with 15+1 is nice to have in the woods . It comes with three magazines .

 

[whm1974]

I'm not sure I've ever heard of .41 AE but I think 10mm is reasonably popular with shooters. It's not on par with 9mm or even .40 S&W but it's around.

It sure is (popular) with gun guys on YouTube; there's tons of videos of guys praising it. I have zero uses for it personally; I'd think it could be useful for hunters, otherwise, why? It just seems like so many people like it because it's POWERFUL and I guess they feel manly after shooting it. Not for me. 9mm or 5.56 or .22LR punches holes through paper just fine for me. Whatevs, to each his own.

Well the 9mm, 5.56, and .22LR are what, the most common ammo you can everywhere in the US? Good reason to have firearms chambered in those calibers. Also on the plus side is that those calibers tend to be lower cost, especially the .22LR.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Glock G20 with 15+1 is nice to have in the woods . It comes with three magazines .

I have an XD9 Subcompact. It's 15+1 too with the extended mag....or 13+1.

I considered a Glock 19 at the time, but didn't like the finger molds because my hands are bigger. I would rather have a smaller handgun that doesn't force my fingers together. I'd be interested to know how comfortable the G20 is in comparison. I've just not shot a Glock in about 10 years.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Well the 9mm, 5.56, and .22LR are what, the most common ammo you can everywhere in the US? Good reason to have firearms chambered in those calibers. Also on the plus side is that those calibers tend to be lower cost, especially the .22LR.

Yeah...I have a few in each of those. Cost is my reasoning...but many people argue those 3 aren't the best for stopping power. Personally, I always figured if I was running toward someone that was shooting at me, I would stop (whether or not they hit me)....

 

[whm1974]

Yeah...I have a few in each of those. Cost is my reasoning...but many people argue those 3 aren't the best for stopping power. Personally, I always figured if I was running toward someone that was shooting at me, I would stop (whether or not they hit me)....

Well a .22LR is something I would use for practice or plinking and only for defense if that was the only gun(s) I had. I prefer .38 Special Cal DA revolvers due to being less likely to have an AD while under your pillow when sleeping.

And despite what many know it alls believe, both 9mm and 5.56 are fine if the ammo is correct type. FMJ is out of the question and should only be used for practice.

 

[gill77]

Handgun ballistics and rifle ballistics are pretty much in two separate classes. I find this site to be useful:

http://www.ballistics101.com/223_remington.php

I remember one week we had a class devoted to carbines. Our instructor said at the beginning of the class, "The only reason to use one of these (holds up Glock) is to fight your way to one of these (holds up AR)".

There is just no comparison in firepower and the ease of shot placement. Having said that, you still are going to fight with the gun that you have.

 

[Jackson18]

I remember one week we had a class devoted to carbines. Our instructor said at the beginning of the class, "The only reason to use one of these (holds up Glock) is to fight your way to one of these (holds up AR)".

isnt there a difference in terms of penetration though? ive always thought assault rifles had a higher risk of over penetration then handguns

 

[whm1974]

isnt there a difference in terms of penetration though? ive always thought assault rifles had a higher risk of over penetration then handguns

They do but some loads of 5.56 can be used that don't over penetrate due to fragmentation. Back when the M1 Carbine was popular there were hollowpoint and softpoint loads for LE and Civilians to use to avoid over penetration. A carbine chambered in a handgun caliber such as the .45 ACP could be as well.

 

[gill77]

isnt there a difference in terms of penetration though? ive always thought assault rifles had a higher risk of over penetration then handguns

I didn't know there was such a thing as over penetration. Two holes are better than one

Just kidding, I get your point. The bullet can exit and hit an innocent.

That can be mitigated by practicing the fourth rule of gun safety:

Rule #4: Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Use of hollow points etc can help there also.

Two things to consider about a potential gun fight:

Winning is everything, and they can be a lot more chaotic and messy than we usually imagine. Body armor, windshields, car doors can enter into the equation.

Too many folks seem to worry about being judged by twelve, rather than carried out by six. If you are in a fist fight to save your life you are going to hit with all you have and worry about accusations of undue force later, if you are lucky enough to survive.

 

[Jackson18]

so its the same thing as a handgun then in terms of something like an ar 15.just get hollow points and your good? i understand about knowing your target and whats behind it.which is why i asked about over penetration in the first place

oh,and i guess i mean assault rifles in general.because i dont know,ive looked at ak 47's to but i guess from what ive looked at it seems like in terms of over penetration it wasnt the same(meaning just buy hollow point ammunition)

 

[whm1974]

so its the same thing as a handgun then in terms of something like an ar 15.just get hollow points and your good? i understand about knowing your target and whats behind it.which is why i asked about over penetration in the first place

Well that too as well. Don't be silly and carry a .44 Magnum with maximum loads.

 

[gill77]

so its the same thing as a handgun then in terms of something like an ar 15.just get hollow points and your good? i understand about knowing your target and whats behind it.which is why i asked about over penetration in the first place

Being good to go is really not quite as simple as an AR with a box of hollow points. There are a couple factors that enter into the equation:

Reliability and confidence in your weapon is one. If you have put a few thousand rounds of FMJ through your AR and feel comfortable, you probably should not load the mag with hollow points which you have no idea how well they will cycle.

Having the weapon at hand when the shtf is the other. You are more likely to have a handgun handy if you are in bed, in your car or walking down the street. The AR in the safe will be of little use.

 

[shortylickens]

Glock G20 with 15+1 is nice to have in the woods . It comes with three magazines .

Ummm, NO.

In the woods it is NOT nice to have a glock 20 or any other glock.
In the woods you want a good rifle or a great shotgun.

 

[shortylickens]

Being good to go is really not quite as simple as an AR with a box of hollow points. There are a couple factors that enter into the equation:

Reliability and confidence in your weapon is one. If you have put a few thousand rounds of FMJ through your AR and feel comfortable, you probably should not load the mag with hollow points which you have no idea how well they will cycle.

Having the weapon at hand when the shtf is the other. You are more likely to have a handgun handy if you are in bed, in your car or walking down the street. The AR in the safe will be of little use.

Yeah the AR is mostly for the range or home defense, and only then if you have it set up in a way that children cannot shoot it but YOU can access it quickly in case something happens.

 

[Jackson18]

and only then if you have it set up in a way that children cannot shoot it but YOU can access it quickly in case something happens.

well,im single so i wouldnt have to worry about anybody besides myself shooting it.my main issue is with over penetration.i just dont want to buy something that id be firing a bunch of rounds with that are going through every wall in my house or small apartment

 

[whm1974]

Ummm, NO.

In the woods it is NOT nice to have a glock 20 or any other glock.
In the woods you want a good rifle or a great shotgun.

In some places carrying a rifle or shotgun in the woods can get you busted for poaching.

 

[shortylickens]

well,im single so i wouldnt have to worry about anybody besides myself shooting it.my main issue is with over penetration.i just dont want to buy something that id be firing a bunch of rounds with that are going through every wall in my house or small apartment

I cant link to any vids or website while I'm at work, but theres a buttload of info showing overpenetration with 556 in the house is not as big an issue as the media makes it out to be. Home defense hollow points are good.

 

[Jackson18]

I cant link to any vids or website while I'm at work, but theres a buttload of info showing overpenetration with 556 in the house is not as big an issue as the media makes it out to be. Home defense hollow points are good.

"not as big of an issue as the media makes it out to be"

i guess im just speaking because i figured assault rifles were more powerful then your just average handgun.so i figured the over penetration would be worse.and its not just ar 15's ive looked at.i kind of like the look of black ak 47's better

plus,i didnt really figure they made hollow points for assault rifles like they do handguns

 

[Paladin3]

I mostly own black powder and cowboy guns, but I do own one semi-auto 9mm pistol, which is the only gun I keep loaded in the house just in case. My 12-gauge pump field shotgun (28" barrel for hunting) has a box of defensive ammo sitting next to it as a backup. I consider this safe because I only have one adult child in the home and she knows how to shoot. If I ever needed a gun for defense in my home, a HIGHLY unlikely event, I believe the emergency would be settled one way or the other with the 9mm.

I've shot it enough that I know the gun by feel, and am accurate enough with it that am comfortable I would hit my target. I keep it loaded with defense hollow points and an extra mag. More important to me than raw stopping power is that I can shoot the gun well and, this is vastly important, I am mentally prepared to stay calm and think during an emergency so I can make good decisions. And, I am not afraid of every bump in the night, which is usually just my cats getting into trouble anyway.

IMHO, confidence, training and mental preparedness is far more important than chasing after a more powerful weapon. If you are a new shooter, maybe a .38/.357 3" revolver would be best. But don't forget good locks on the door, good lighting outside your home, getting to know your neighbors and looking out for each other. Most of personal/home safety is mental and practical preparation. The gun is just a tool you train with for the very slim chance the unthinkable happens.

 

[shortylickens]

"not as big of an issue as the media makes it out to be"

i guess im just speaking because i figured assault rifles were more powerful then your just average handgun.so i figured the over penetration would be worse.and its not just ar 15's ive looked at.i kind of like the look of black ak 47's better

plus,i didnt really figure they made hollow points for assault rifles like they do handguns

EVERY bullet is available in hollow point, even 50 BMG if you look around.
Fun Fact: Damn near every caliber also has a rubber bullet, but you really gotta shop around.

 

[Jackson18]

EVERY bullet is available in hollow point, even 50 BMG if you look around.
Fun Fact: Damn near every caliber also has a rubber bullet, but you really gotta shop around.

so in terms of the issue of "over penetration" and caliber,it really doesnt matter.i mean,lets say i wanted for a first handgun to get a .45 caliber instead of a 9mm.as long as i get a hollow point im good in terms of over penetration?

 

[Paladin3]

so in terms of the issue of "over penetration" and caliber,it really doesnt matter.i mean,lets say i wanted for a first handgun to get a .45 caliber instead of a 9mm.as long as i get a hollow point im good in terms of over penetration?

Nobody can guarantee that, but hollow points and other types of defensive ammo are meant to expand and fragment when they hit something to do more damage and create a more fatal would that stop the attacker faster. Full metal jacketed type rounds stay together and are more likely to penetrate a wall and continue on. As a responsible gun owner, using the proper type of hollow point self-defense ammo is part of the safety equation, which includes identifying your target and knowing what's in the background before you shoot.

If you find a .45 ACP you like and shoot well then that's a good gun for you. 9mm is what most folks consider the minimum caliber for self-defense, and because of it's lower recoil most folks can learn to shoot it well and accurately. A larger caliber like .45 ACP in a heavier gun will serve you perfectly well. You can even get simple double action revolvers in .45 ACP that load with moon clips. But try a few out to see what you are most comfortable with, then spend enough range time that you can shoot it well. The rest is mental preparedness, confidence and keeping calm. You'll likely never need the gun, but you will be happy you have it if you do.

And you might even find you like target shooting as a sport.

 

[Jackson18]

If you find a .45 you like and shoot well then that's a good gun for you.

im more concerned about if a .45 would over penetrate.but i guess with your point about proper type of ammo,maybe im to focused on the caliber in terms of over penetration and not the ammo?

 

[Paladin3]

im more concerned about if a .45 would over penetrate.but i guess with your point about proper type of ammo,maybe im to focused on the caliber in terms of over penetration and not the ammo?

Again, there is no guarantee, but you should be more concerned with finding the gun in a caliber that you can shoot well and feel comfortable with. What have you actually shot so far? If you stick to 9mm or large, you are plenty well armed. Anyone telling you 9mm is a wimpy round for self-defense is incorrect, IMHO. Yes, .45 acp has more raw stopping power, but more recoil too. And those guns are often larger, and have a lower magazine capacity than some 9mm pistols do. So try out a bunch.

Once you find your gun, then make sure it is loaded with quality, hollow point ammo because it will be most effective and reduce the chance of over penetration.

 

[Jackson18]

Again, there is no guarantee, but you should be more concerned with finding the gun in a caliber that you can shoot well and feel comfortable with.

so really,picking a caliber because of over penetration isnt that important?

also,nobody has told me 9mm is a whimpy round.but i dont know,i guess i just figured id like something with a bit more power then a 9mm