So, what do we know about the Neoconservative movement?

[Polish3d]

The neocon ideas could have been good had they not been so fukkking militaristic and arrogant.

Good neocon ideas:


- Support democracy

- Stop supporting dictatorships as much as possible

BAD

- Believe they are infallible enough in their ideas to lie to achieve their aims

- Militaristic people who have never seen war themselves (Tom Clancy almost came to blows with Richard Perle when Perle was complaining that Colin Powell was too worried about troops prior to Iraq war.)

- Alliance with evangelicals aka "useful idiots" <- (my phrase... did wish to tolerate religious people and do as long as they are somewhat decent but can no longer be supportive of them overall)

- Don't care about huge domestic expenditure



I supported Bush for awhile, but there is virtually nothing which he has done or is doing which I find worth supporting. I thought he'd do a better job on Iraq, spending etc ... this was the first election I really paid attention to and could vote in age-wise, I won't be making that mistake again.

 

[conjur]

Nice to see someone engaging their brain cells. Bravo, Frackal, for taking the time to think through details of policies and their effects.

 

[shrumpage]

Originally posted by: conjur
Nice to see someone engaging their brain cells. Bravo, Frackal, for taking the time to think through details of policies and their effects.

Adds to his own threads check!

Posts story with wild claim check!

when questioned about such claim.....ignores check!

refuses to engage in a discussion check!


you are starting sound/act like dave.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: conjur
Again, go read the many interviews of Ledeen available on the web.

Watch that documentary: The Power of Nightmares


Ledeen is certifiable.


Oh wait, or do you honestly think the neocons have been correct in their judgments and policies wrt to Iraq? Remember, it was they that brought in Chalabi and his lying toadies to provide "proof" Saddam had WMDs.

That was directed to you, shrumpage.




Ignores direct questions...check.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Crusader
I've heard neo-con thrown around all over the place.. sure.

But I dont see any difference between the political and religous beliefs of Ronald Reagan, GWB or myself. We're all the same for the most part, Christian, Corporate, Small Gov't people (when possible, obviously now is not the time to downsize gov't controls). During peacetime though, I'm all for cutting programs and the gov't itself to encourage the economy.

But I never saw a distinct or clear difference between being conservative and neoconservative.
Thats all we were asking for? Not more liberal haughty attitudes and condescendance. But what else is expected in this place.

So far, I have seen no evidence to draw a line between neocon and conservatives... and our "elite liberal" residents dont even seem to know.. at minimum a wiki link would have been appropriate. But I stand with the difference between neocon/conservative being slim to none.

How many times does it need to be explained before you stop ignoring it?

I've posted a real definition, as has Frackal, and a number of others. Neoconservatives are not the same as conservatives; they are not closely related to conservatives.

 

[shrumpage]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: conjur
Again, go read the many interviews of Ledeen available on the web.

Watch that documentary: The Power of Nightmares


Ledeen is certifiable.


Oh wait, or do you honestly think the neocons have been correct in their judgments and policies wrt to Iraq? Remember, it was they that brought in Chalabi and his lying toadies to provide "proof" Saddam had WMDs.

That was directed to you, shrumpage.




Ignores direct questions...check.

What does he say in that interview that makes him crazy?

 

[conjur]

I've already pointed it out to you.

 

[shrumpage]

Originally posted by: conjur
I've already pointed it out to you.

he doesn't call himself a neocon - so there fore he is crazy?

 

[conjur]

It's pointless trying to communicate with you. I was correct in my earlier description of you when I said you were an obtuse troll.

buh-bye.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: conjur
Interview of Michael Ledeen by RawStory's Larissa Alexandrovna
http://rawstory.com/news/2006/Conversat...ontroversial_Neoconservative_0228.html

Long interview but Ledeen's delusional insanity is still readily apparent. He hasn't changed much and my guess is his history of being involved with corrupt and criminal elements in our gov't is tantamount to a mindset ignorant of the plight of the average American and how democracy does and should work.

The guy belongs in Bellevue.

Heads up that Part II of this interview is coming up today apparently.


Here's a bit more background on Ledeen:
(hmmm...link below doesn't seem to work now...found this replacemet:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/7/22/7563/12283)

Keyser Soze aka Michael Ledeen.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/10/19/14555

Michael Ledeen was one of the founders of the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA). He holds the Freedom Chair at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), a think tank for AIPAC. He is co-founder of the Coalition for Democracy in Iran. As far back as 1980, the CIA allegedly listed Ledeen as an agent of influence of Israel. Ledeen is the main foreign policy advisor to Karl Rove. Ledeens main obsession seems to be to overthrow Iran.

In 1972 he published the book Universal Fascism, in which he expounds upon "the rightness of the fascist cause." In Universal Fascism, Ledeen first builds his case that fascism was the "20th Century Revolution" and that "people yearn for the real thing - revolution". It's the blueprint for a fascist revolution.

In 1980 he collaborated with Francesco Pazienza of SISMI and P-2 in the "BillyGate" affair. This is the same Pazienze who was recently found out to belong to the parallel intelligence agency in Italy. In 1985 Pazienza was found guilty of political manipulation, forgery, and the protection of terrorists. Ledeen is identified in court documents as an agent of SISMI.

The Pentagon downgraded Ledeen's security clearances from Top Secret-SCI to Secret in the mid-1980s, after the FBI began a probe of Ledeen for passing classified materials to a foreign country, believed to be Israel.

Everything You Need to Know About Michael Ledeen
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/MichaelLedeen.html

Would you be surprised to find that a man who was deeply involved in the Iran-Contra scandal during the Reagan Administration, a man who is the darling of the Bush White House and is an adviser to Karl Rove, a man who loves Machiavelli and studies him, a neo-conservative who has close ties to one of America?s leading ?Christian? Dominionists?Pat Robertson, and a man who called Pearl Harbor ?lucky? and a providentially inspired event?may be the man who is behind the forging of the Niger documents that convinced America to launch a preemptive strike against Iraq?

...

It would be foolish for America?s political strategists and congressional leaders to ignore Michael Ledeen and his interpretation of Machiavelli. Mr. Ledeen speaks from the cutting edge of a group of men and women who desire nothing more than to reconstruct America in their own image. This nation is in grave danger. Ledeen belongs to a group of men, including Harry Jaffa, Pat Robertson, Willmoore Kendall to Allan Bloom, who, according to Shadia Drury, scholar and author of Leo Strauss and the American Right, share ?the view that America is too liberal and pluralistic and that what it needs is a single orthodoxy that governs the public and private lives of its citizens.?<1>

The belief in a single voice that governs the public should cause all Americans to understand these men want to convert this nation to a permanent dictatorship. Their inspirer was Leo Strauss, a professor who taught Machiavellian methods to many of them at the University of Chicago. In fact, Paul Wolfovitz earned his doctorate under Strauss and many of the neo-cons in the White House studied under him. Strauss believed every society needs a ?single public orthodoxy.? As Drury put it, ?a set of ideas that defines what is true and false, right and wrong, noble and base.? Strauss believed that the role of religion was indispensable to the political success of a nation. For a political society had to hold together and act as a unit in lock step with the leader. Strauss believed that religion was the means to inculcate the desired ideas into the minds of the masses. He didn?t care what religion?just as long as it was a religion that could link itself to the political order.

 

[conjur]

Conversations with Machiavelli's ghost: Denials mark neoconservative's account of past and present scandal
http://rawstory.com/news/2006/Conversat...hiavellis_ghost_Denials_mark_0307.html


Ledeen comes off quite a bit more defensive and evasive than in the 1st part of the interview. He tries to paint himself as something akin to a minor pawn in the whole thing.

 

[conjur]

And the last part of the interview with Michael Ledeen

Conversations with Machiavelli's Ghost, Part 3
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Conve...th_Machiavellis_Ghost_Part_3_0320.html

Ledeen is in full-on spin mode to distance himself from his own statements and actions from before the war. What a pathetic lunatic.



And here's another great read:

Joe Wilson SLAMS Scooter/Neocons: "Drive a Stake Through Their Hearts!"
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/3/25/0382/50871

Here's a good snippet:

As for the yellowcake in Niger and Rice's claim that nobody in her circle was aware of the reports that it was false or she'd have known about it? Wilson reminded us that there were at least 3 reports in her files, including one from Wilson, stating that the claim could not be backed up at all and was probably false. Of course, she's a lying ass so this is no big shocker to anyone in reality world but how often do we hear Democrats put it quite like this......

Seeing as she was the National Security Advisor, the person whose job it is to keep track of the nuclear threats against the United States, for her not to know about these reports that were sitting in her very own office files says to me that she is either A) incompetent, B) disingenous, or C) and this is the most likely in my opinion....simply a bald faced liar.

 

[imported_Condor]

Another Conjur cobble!

Continue making useless personal attack posts like this and you will win the vacation of our dreams.

AnandTech Moderator

What, Conjur whining to the mods? That wasn't a personal attack, but a comment on his endless whiney postings. If you want the defination of a personal attack, this missive from Don Vito is a pretty good example:

link

"Thanks for your input.

You, in turn, must find it surprising that, even now that you're well past retirement age, people continue to call you a childish jerk."

I've been thrown out of much better bars than this liberal shithole. Oh, yeah - bye!