So wait.... K&N air filters really just lots more dirt in your engine?

[KDOG]

I'm posting the original article that prompted this thread, so it's part of the record

http://duramax-diesel.com/spicer/index.htm

Thanks thats' the one!

 

[JDub02]

The Jeep 4.0 is a great motor, but there's nothing you can do aside from major work to get it to make more power. I've done it all. K&N FIPK, throttle body spacer, anything and everything I could throw at it. It was all a waste. But that was when I was young and stupid with my money and willing to believe most snake-oil salesmen.

 

[Nemesis 1]

YA YA . Tell it to every dirt track race car driver and engine builder in the country, who use nothing but K&N filters. So much fud here its unbelievable . We run $25,000 motors and use K&N filters because why.

 

[brblx]

YA YA . Tell it to every dirt track race car driver and engine builder in the country, who use nothing but K&N filters. So much fud here its unbelievable . We run $25,000 motors and use K&N filters because why.

i'll keep that in mind the next time i'm driving my dirt track car to work.

they use oil-impregnated cotton filters on race motors because it's the next best thing to no air filter. why you would think that has any meaning in the realm of production cars (or that it refutes data already posted) is beyond me.

 

[PricklyPete]

That review that's been quoted above is pretty definitive.

Oh I agree with the review... I was just joking around. I have no interest in using a K&N type filter.

 

[LTC8K6]

YA YA . Tell it to every dirt track race car driver and engine builder in the country, who use nothing but K&N filters. So much fud here its unbelievable . We run $25,000 motors and use K&N filters because why.

If I were rebuilding my engine a lot, I wouldn't care either...

You run them because you believe the hype and haven't bothered to check, or because K&N is a sponsor...

 

[angry hampster]

The Jeep 4.0 is a great motor, but there's nothing you can do aside from major work to get it to make more power. I've done it all. K&N FIPK, throttle body spacer, anything and everything I could throw at it. It was all a waste. But that was when I was young and stupid with my money and willing to believe most snake-oil salesmen.

If you have an older one, the exhaust manifold from 99-newer models will give it some more mojo. Beyond that you're pretty much looking at a stroker or supercharger for big power.

 

[KNFilters]

I'm posting the original article that prompted this thread, so it's part of the record

http://duramax-diesel.com/spicer/index.htm

There is much misleading information on the web in respect to air filtration including the Spicer report linked to this thread. The people making such claims are not accountable for them and the web enables them to distribute this misinformation at random. K&N does not have the luxury of not being held accountable. K&N has a legal and moral responsibility to the consumer and we take it seriously. See http://knfilters.com/MAF/massairpledge.htm for our Consumer Protection Pledge. K&N operates an ISO compliant test facility on a daily year round basis where we test our air filters in accordance with the ISO 5011 Test Protocol to ensure they will protect your engine as well as help your car run better. Furthermore, we are proud to have complete control of our product quality by doing our testing, development and manufacturing in California. Not only have we sold in excess of 20 million air filters worldwide but we continue to be used by many of the top racing teams throughout the world including the winners of the 2007 Baja 1000 and Baja 500 (and the 2008 Daytona 500).

I'm going to allow this post to stand simply because the users have taken care of handling this marketing drivel already. However, if K&N filters wishes to post additional advertising messages here, they are going to need to pay for it just like everyone else. Consider yourself warned.

Zenmervolt - AnandTech Moderator

 

[mb]

There is much misleading information on the web in respect to air filtration including the Spicer report linked to this thread. The people making such claims are not accountable for them and the web enables them to distribute this misinformation at random. K&N does not have the luxury of not being held accountable. K&N has a legal and moral responsibility to the consumer and we take it seriously. See http://knfilters.com/MAF/massairpledge.htm for our Consumer Protection Pledge. K&N operates an ISO compliant test facility on a daily year round basis where we test our air filters in accordance with the ISO 5011 Test Protocol to ensure they will protect your engine as well as help your car run better. Furthermore, we are proud to have complete control of our product quality by doing our testing, development and manufacturing in California. Not only have we sold in excess of 20 million air filters worldwide but we continue to be used by many of the top racing teams throughout the world including the winners of the 2007 Baja 1000 and Baja 500 (and the 2008 Daytona 500).

lol, K&N has a truther to go around and check message boards for this link and defend their existence.

Sorry, K&N has no reason to be around. It's like if a company successfully marketed and sold blinker fluid made in an ISO certified factory and sponsored winning racing teams. Doesn't mean the product is actually good. But hey, free enterprise, amirite?

Let's say the K&N filters have only caused 25 failures in the 20+ million sold. That's still too many for what the product is.
You can buy a life time of paper filters for the cost and upkeep of a K&N filter
Paper filters filter better
Paper filters have good enough air flow
If a paper filter is hindering performance, the extra air flow from a K&N filter won't help the engine make that much more HP
The possibility of a few extra HP on a dyno that goes unnoticed in driving wouldn't be worth the extra dirt and cost
Dropping in a new paper filter is easier and faster than re-oiling a K&N filter

And race built engines are a whole 'nother beast. Terrible comparison.

 

[Zenmervolt]

There is much misleading information on the web in respect to air filtration including the Spicer report linked to this thread. The people making such claims are not accountable for them and the web enables them to distribute this misinformation at random. K&N does not have the luxury of not being held accountable. K&N has a legal and moral responsibility to the consumer and we take it seriously. See http://knfilters.com/MAF/massairpledge.htm for our Consumer Protection Pledge. K&N operates an ISO compliant test facility on a daily year round basis where we test our air filters in accordance with the ISO 5011 Test Protocol to ensure they will protect your engine as well as help your car run better. Furthermore, we are proud to have complete control of our product quality by doing our testing, development and manufacturing in California. Not only have we sold in excess of 20 million air filters worldwide but we continue to be used by many of the top racing teams throughout the world including the winners of the 2007 Baja 1000 and Baja 500 (and the 2008 Daytona 500).

You've posted a lot of legalese Mr. "I'm paid by K&N to post excuses for their inferior filtration", but what you have very conspicuously not posted are any test results disputing the fact that K&N filters simply do not offer the amount of filtration that other, cheaper, filters do offer.

You appeal to popularity ("sold in excess of 20 million air filters worldwide") yet fail to realise that Chia Pets have also sold millions of items worldwide. Sales volume proves that you have an excellent marketing department and that your product is at least minimally functional, it does not mean that the product is truly a "good" option.

As far as racing teams using K&N, well, one does tend to use a product when one is paid to do so. Additionally, professional racing engines are generally rebuilt on a very frequent basis and, as a result, are significantly less sensitive to the cumulative effect of reduced filtration. In fact, back in the days of carburetors, many racing engines ran with no filtration at all. On pure racing engines, the air filter exists not so much to filter out fine particles as is necessary on a street vehicle with an expected engine life in the hundreds of thousands of miles, but rather to provide a minimal level of filtration that stops only very large particulate matter.

ZV

 

[mb]

You've posted a lot of legalese Mr. "I'm paid by P&N to post excuses for their inferior filtration", but what you have very conspicuously not posted are any test results disputing the fact that K&N filters simply do not offer the amount of filtration that other, cheaper, filters do offer.

LOL ZV I think you spend too much time in P&N

 

[Zenmervolt]

LOL ZV I think you spend too much time in P&N

Damn Freudian slips.

 

[Arkaign]

LOL ZV I think you spend too much time in P&N

I was wondering that myself.

I'm glad K&N is an option, though for most vehicles/applications I don't think it's a great idea. I had really good results on a couple vehicles though.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I was wondering that myself.

I'm glad K&N is an option, though for most vehicles/applications I don't think it's a great idea. I had really good results on a couple vehicles though.

It's a fantastic option if you know what you're getting into and if you know why you need it. On a racing engine, it's a very good trade to sacrifice some filtration for flow. On an engine you want to see reach 200,000+ miles, it's not such a great trade.

While I have no qualms about the product itself, I find their marketing to be misleading and in some ways predatory in the way they play upon people's ignorance. If they would simply position the product as what it is, a washable filter that sacrifices filtration ability for airflow and is chiefly useful only in modified engines I would actually love the company.

ZV

 

[Arkaign]

It's a fantastic option if you know what you're getting into and if you know why you need it. On a racing engine, it's a very good trade to sacrifice some filtration for flow. On an engine you want to see reach 200,000+ miles, it's not such a great trade.

While I have no qualms about the product itself, I find their marketing to be misleading and in some ways predatory in the way they play upon people's ignorance. If they would simply position the product as what it is, a washable filter that sacrifices filtration ability for airflow and is chiefly useful only in modified engines I would actually love the company.

ZV

Perfectly said. Oh well, at least their products are good (if you are actually needing one), unlike a lot of the snake oil companies with engine/fuel additives that are often either useless or harmful.

 

[Bignate603]

If you have an older one, the exhaust manifold from 99-newer models will give it some more mojo. Beyond that you're pretty much looking at a stroker or supercharger for big power.

JP did a write up on all of the Jeep 4.0L myths about getting more power, getting a good aftermarket exhaust manifold is one of the few that actually made extra power. They recommended going aftermarket because even the '99 and up OEM exhaust would develop cracks where the pipes connected to the flange by the engine.

Other things that actually made a small but measurable difference were a cold air intake and a freer flowing exhaust.

 

[SooperDave]

Snip

You have done more to hurt your cause posting this pre packaged bullshit than anything else.

 

[jjmIII]

That K&N oil gets on your MAF sensor too.

 

[PricklyPete]

You have done more to hurt your cause posting this pre packaged bullshit than anything else.

Completely agreed...especially since he backed it with NOTHING other than sales figures as ZV said. Very unimpressive.

 

[Gillbot]

There is much misleading information on the web in respect to air filtration including the Spicer report linked to this thread. The people making such claims are not accountable for them and the web enables them to distribute this misinformation at random. K&N does not have the luxury of not being held accountable. K&N has a legal and moral responsibility to the consumer and we take it seriously. See [URL="http://knfilters.com/MAF/massairpledge.htm"]http://knfilters.com/MAF/massairpledge.htm[/URL] for our Consumer Protection Pledge. K&N operates an ISO compliant test facility on a daily year round basis where we test our air filters in accordance with the ISO 5011 Test Protocol to ensure they will protect your engine as well as help your car run better. Furthermore, we are proud to have complete control of our product quality by doing our testing, development and manufacturing in California. Not only have we sold in excess of 20 million air filters worldwide but we continue to be used by many of the top racing teams throughout the world including the winners of the 2007 Baja 1000 and Baja 500 (and the 2008 Daytona 500).

All I can say is, BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I have all the test data I need perfomed by myself on my own car.

Max power made with a paper filter. CHECK!
Engine Teardown after K&N use. CHECK!
Excessive amounts of dirt and debris present inside engine. CHECK!
Changed to paper filter. CHECK!
Engine teardown #2 confirming no more dirt and debris after paper filter. CHECK!

Save your marketing drivel for those uninformed with open wallets. In the mean time, real people will use a better filter and continue to dissuade others from using your garbage.

 

[alfa147x]

KNFilters Just got pwnd by 2 mods! Hell yes!

 

[exdeath]

I have a 12" S&B Powerstack filter on my car with a 5" intake pipe from throttle to fender. Inlet restriction and compressor cavitation is actually a big issue with heat and blower efficiency with a positive displacement supercharger and is such a case where bigger filters and intake pipes are helpful (30+ HP in conjunction with more boost, etc)

Made no illusions about filtering better, and don't believe it's necessarily better than a K&N or anything. I feared what the inside of my intake looked like being in Dust Bowl, Arizona. But last time I had it apart, it was clean as a whistle inside the intake pipe, not a spec of dust on the MAF, throttle blades, etc, and the oil still stays clear up to 3k-5k miles.

I attribute it to the large surface area of the filter putting less vacuum per square inch on the filter media, causing it to not suck particles through. Airflow via surface area rather than higher flowing/less filtering media? It's a HUGE filter, took me an hour to get it situated in the fender well with a very tight fit. To give an idea, it's a long conical style filter bigger than a 3L soda bottle with a 5" opening for the pipe.

Moral of the story, use a bigger filter with OEM quality fine filtering paper media with more surface area if you need less airflow restriction, rather than a OEM sized aftermarket filter that achieves it's increased capacity with more porous media. It's really all about surface area and vacuum per square inch of filter surface.

Distribution is also important, that is proper intake tube/air box design that doesn't position the intake in such a way that only half the OEM filter is really used. Panel filters with the intake pipe or fender cold air snorkel .0001" away from the filter or the outside air inlet and engine intake on the same edge of the filter are pretty much only using that 3" circle or one edge of the filter. Even distribution and use of the entire filter is where conical filters shine over panel filters. A 12" x 8" rectangle doesn't really map very well to a 3" circle without using a deep air box, and still has less surface area than a conical filter of the same dimensional envelope as that air box.

 

[Dr. Cooter]

I've gotta say, this thread stirred up quite a discussion at work today. A little about the filter, but mostly our surprise and disgust at the second-grade level of leadership on this board. This is un-believable...

Blah blah blah...FLAME...blah blah blah...I'm an ass...blah blah blah...I'm an expert!...blah blah blah...

ZV

You're a Moderator? You're obviously doing a FINE job moderating this discussion. Thanks for remaining impartial and giving all parties an opportunity to speak their opinion.

All I can say is, BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I have all the test data I need perfomed by myself on my own car.

Max power made with a paper filter. CHECK!
Engine Teardown after K&N use. CHECK!
Excessive amounts of dirt and debris present inside engine. CHECK!
Changed to paper filter. CHECK!
Engine teardown #2 confirming no more dirt and debris after paper filter. CHECK!

Save your marketing drivel for those uninformed with open wallets. In the mean time, real people will use a better filter and continue to dissuade others from using your garbage.

The board administrator posted this??? I read the post which you claim to be "marketing", I don't see a single piece of advertising in it anywhere. Are you just upset that they aren't registered as a vendor and contributing money to "your" board? You tout yourself as being an "informed" person...but all I hear when you speak are the sounds of flatulence.

Nearly everyone who has posted on this thread obviously has some kind of ax to grind against K&N. On what kind of FACTS are you basing your opinions, which you are crusading so gallantly to defend? The link to some test you found online? Ooooh, if you found it online, that MUST mean it's true! Have any of you actually seen a hard copy of the test results? For all you know, they could have been made up!

Do yourself, and all of us with 2 brain cells left, a favor. Take the black curtain off the window, put on some clothes, turn off your World of Warcraft game, and step outside for a while and breathe in some fresh air. The world is a bigger place than Al Gore's Internet.

So, in other words, K&N has no actual response to the legitimate criticisms raised and has instead attempted to astroturf this discussion. That really makes you look good.

If, as you claim, it's not pre-packaged marketing, why did a user with the same user name post a nearly identical post at approximately the same time on the same day on another forum as well?

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?p=579574#post579574

Oh yeah, and let's not forget the google results that come back when you use that search string:

http://www.google.com/search?q=KNFilters+"There+is+much+misleading+information+on+the+web"

"Don't see a single piece of advertising in it" my arse.

Not only that, but the IP logs confirm that the Dr. Cooter account was logged into at least once by someone using an IP address assigned to K&N Corporate.

Please do let the door hit you on the way out.

Zenmervolt - AnandTech Moderator

 

[mb]

I've gotta say, this thread stirred up quite a discussion at work today. A little about the filter, but mostly our surprise and disgust at the second-grade level of leadership on this board. This is un-believable...



You're a Moderator? You're obviously doing a FINE job moderating this discussion. Thanks for remaining impartial and giving all parties an opportunity to speak their opinion.



The board administrator posted this??? I read the post which you claim to be "marketing", I don't see a single piece of advertising in it anywhere. Are you just upset that they aren't registered as a vendor and contributing money to "your" board? You tout yourself as being an "informed" person...but all I hear when you speak are the sounds of flatulence.

Nearly everyone who has posted on this thread obviously has some kind of ax to grind against K&N. On what kind of FACTS are you basing your opinions, which you are crusading so gallantly to defend? The link to some test you found online? Ooooh, if you found it online, that MUST mean it's true! Have any of you actually seen a hard copy of the test results? For all you know, they could have been made up!

Do yourself, and all of us with 2 brain cells left, a favor. Take the black curtain off the window, put on some clothes, turn off your World of Warcraft game, and step outside for a while and breathe in some fresh air. The world is a bigger place than Al Gore's Internet.

Quoted for posterity.

 

[mav451]

...the sudden influx of "viral" damage control is laughable.