So this doesn't quite belong in P&N, border security

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
Was just thinking, I keep hearing about how Drug Cartels and whatnot have basically taken over state/national parks and such in the south-west for smuggling purposes, just wondering why no Governor has called in the National Guard on this if it's so serious. Do state national guards simply lack the resources? Seems kinda contradictory to the name if they couldn't even secure a park. I know we're talking about large areas and sometimes rough terrain but I can't believe such a campaign would be so ineffectual as to not even attempt it.
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
13,897
1
0
Was just thinking, I keep hearing about how Drug Cartels and whatnot have basically taken over state/national parks and such in the south-west for smuggling purposes, just wondering why no Governor has called in the National Guard on this if it's so serious. Do state national guards simply lack the resources? Seems kinda contradictory to the name if they couldn't even secure a park. I know we're talking about large areas and sometimes rough terrain but I can't believe such a campaign would be so ineffectual as to not even attempt it.

You need to take a look at the numbers to realize just how big of an area they're trying to cover. For example in Arizona 56% of the state is government owned land. That's over 41 million acres, with almost all of it completely unsettled and isolated. It's a HUGE amount of area to cover. You just can't wave your hands and patrol that large of an area.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
You need to take a look at the numbers to realize just how big of an area they're trying to cover. For example in Arizona 56% of the state is government owned land. That's over 41 million acres, with almost all of it completely unsettled and isolated. It's a HUGE amount of area to cover. You just can't wave your hands and patrol that large of an area.

Well not all of it certainly, but enough to bolster border patrol and make a difference I would hope. At the very least a shifting patrol pattern, even thinly spread, could fuck with cartel routes.
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
64
91
Was just thinking, I keep hearing about how Drug Cartels and whatnot have basically taken over state/national parks and such in the south-west for smuggling purposes, just wondering why no Governor has called in the National Guard on this if it's so serious.

Where the fuck are you getting your news? 'Drug Cartels' have not 'taken over state/national parks.' They smuggle people/drugs through the desert. That's it.

And the reason, other than there being no take-over, is that it would be extremely expensive to deploy the guard, and it would not be worth it to just keep weed and illegals from coming.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
Where the fuck are you getting your news? 'Drug Cartels' have not 'taken over state/national parks.' They smuggle people/drugs through the desert. That's it.

And the reason, other than there being no take-over, is that it would be extremely expensive to deploy the guard, and it would not be worth it to just keep weed and illegals from coming.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/aug/31/signs-in-arizona-warn-of-smuggler-dangers/?page=all

The federal government has posted signs along a major interstate highway in Arizona, more than 100 miles north of the U.S.-Mexico border, warning travelers the area is unsafe because of drug and alien smugglers, and a local sheriff says Mexican drug cartels now control some parts of the state.

The signs were posted by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) along a 60-mile stretch of Interstate 8 between Casa Grande and Gila Bend, a major east-west corridor linking Tucson and Phoenix with San Diego.

They warn travelers that they are entering an “active drug and human smuggling area” and they may encounter “armed criminals and smuggling vehicles traveling at high rates of speed.” Beginning less than 50 miles south of Phoenix, the signs encourage travelers to “use public lands north of Interstate 8” and to call 911 if they “see suspicious activity.”

Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu, whose county lies at the center of major drug and alien smuggling routes to Phoenix and cities east and west, attests to the violence. He said his deputies are outmanned and outgunned by drug traffickers in the rough-hewn desert stretches of his own county.

“Mexican drug cartels literally do control parts of Arizona,” he said. “They literally have scouts on the high points in the mountains and in the hills and they literally control movement. They have radios, they have optics, they have night-vision goggles as good as anything law enforcement has.

“This is going on here in Arizona,” he said. “This is 70 to 80 miles from the border - 30 miles from the fifth-largest city in the United States

So what does that sound like to you?
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
13,897
1
0
Well not all of it certainly, but enough to bolster border patrol and make a difference I would hope. At the very least a shifting patrol pattern, even thinly spread, could fuck with cartel routes.

That's what they do, but it's still a massive area. The cartels are smart and have figured out systems that allows them to see the patrols coming with enough warning to avoid them. If they patrol moves into one area the cartels just move into another, there is plenty of different areas and routes the cartels can move through. You're vastly over simplifying the problem if you think they can effectively cover that sort of area without an absolutely massive amount of people.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
The politicians support the war on drugs for a reason. That reason is not because they care about the safety of the people.

I can't believe that the OP calls me an idiot. He should know that they're selective in enforcing Federal drug law. Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton supported the war on drugs because it hurt the people, and because the drug cartels probably lobby for it. He could've just told the people the truth (i.e., that the war on drugs increases drug use and that it created the cartel) like Dr. Paul did in 88 (one the now-defunct morton downey junior show), but the Clintons are evil so they wouldn't tell the truth.

OTOH, Ron Paul's proposal to end the Federal WoD would've been unpopular because most people (including the statists he was debating in 88) had already been convinced that it was best to give up your liberty for insecurity without realizing that they were losing both.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,855
33,914
136

It sounds like yet another grandstanding, loud mouth, Joe Arpaio wanabe from Arizona. Maybe if his own deputies would stop running drugs for the cartels and he spent as much time running his department as he does on TV and radio, Babeu would have some credibility on the issue.

The Border Patrol has plenty of folks to secure the border. They choose not to. Rather than patrol the border at the border the Border Patrol deploys most of its resources well inside the border playing war games and harassing American citizens. Station all those agents at the border and they could practically hold hands.
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
64
91

The Washington Times is a conservative rag that likes to publish this type of crap to scare gullible wingnuts like yourself. Those local law enforcement officials are just trying to get more federal $$ for their departments. Cartels using barren federal land to smuggle drugs and people is not "taking over."

Fools like you are why the drug war persists.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
The Washington Times is a conservative rag that likes to publish this type of crap to scare gullible wingnuts like yourself. Those local law enforcement officials are just trying to get more federal $$ for their departments. Cartels using barren federal land to smuggle drugs and people is not "taking over."

Fools like you are why the drug war persists.

Feel better? Ready to start reading what I posted?

Note my use of the word "effectively" and frankly, when the federal government feels the need to put up warning signs for average citizens due to human trafficking and smuggling, I think it's safe to say the situation is out of control. Or is this all political and the fed is wasting yet more of our money to spite Brewer? :p

I meant this thread to be about the logistics of securing the border, not your unsubstantiated hatred of anything that even smells right-wing. If I wanted that I would have posted in P&N. Kindly calm the fuck down.
 
Last edited:

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
64
91
Feel better? Ready to start reading what I posted?

Note my use of the word "effectively" and frankly, when the federal government feels the need to put up warning signs for average citizens due to human trafficking and smuggling, I think it's safe to say the situation is out of control. Or is this all political and the fed is wasting yet more of our money to spite Brewer? :p

And I meant this thread to be about the logistics of securing the border, not your unsubstantiated hatred of anything remotely right-wing. If I wanted that I would have posted in P&N. Kindly calm the fuck down.

I live in the rio grande valley, on the border with mexico. I hear right wing idiots all the time talking about how I'm living in a fucking war zone, when I actually live in one of the safest metro areas in the country. It's annoying.

This thread is just you getting fooled by propaganda.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
I live in the rio grande valley, on the border with mexico. I hear right wing idiots all the time talking about how I'm living in a fucking war zone, when I actually live in one of the safest metro areas in the country. It's annoying.

This thread is just you getting fooled by propaganda.

And your area is representative of the entire southwest border?

Also you'll notice that I opened this thread with a question, and left room to be proven wrong in entirety ("if it's so serious"). I have been fooled by nothing. You are simply on some anti-right crusade, and are ironically attacking an independent. The only actual argument you've offered is "expense" and using your relatively small area as an inadequate example. I say again, kindly calm the fuck down.
 
Last edited:

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,855
33,914
136
And your area is representative of the entire southwest border?

Also you'll notice that I opened this thread with a question, and left room to be proven wrong in entirety ("if it's so serious"). I have been fooled by nothing. You are simply on some anti-right crusade, and are ironically attacking an independent. The only actual argument you've offered is "expense" and using your relatively small area as an inadequate example.

I hike on the border in southern Arizona on a regular basis. When I say "on the border" I mean that the border fence is within view, right over there. I hike in the areas where the signs quoted above are posted. I have observed immigrants and drug smugglers moving through. I have never had a negative encounter with a border crosser. The politicians are hyping the situation for political gain.
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
64
91
And your area is representative of the entire southwest border?

Also you'll notice that I opened this thread with a question, and left room to be proven wrong in entirety. You are simply on some anti-right crusade, and are ironically attacking an independent. The only actual argument you've offered is "expense" and using your relatively small area as an inadequate example.

Yeah, I live in a different part of the borderlands, but the demagoguery you're repeating is the same.

Your story has one sheriff's deputy getting shot as the only evidence of violence on our side of the border.

If you think that this is cause enough to spend millions and millions of dollars on a prolonged National Guard deployment, then you're a fool.

The only way to stop this smuggling is to legalize marijuana and replace the drug war with a rational drug policy.
 
Last edited:

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
Your story has one sheriff's deputy getting shot as the only evidence of violence on our side of the border.

If you think that this is cause enough to spend millions and millions of dollars on a prolonged National Guard deployment, then you're a fool.

The only way to stop this smuggling is to legalize marijuana and replace the drug war with a rational drug policy.

I don't know what to think, some of us like to gather information before making judgements. You on the other hand read a question that represented a slight possibility of a right-leaning thought process on a single issue, and to you I am now apparently satan's stupid inbred cousin.

Let me know when you get back on your meds, k?
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91

rivan

Diamond Member
Jul 8, 2003
9,677
3
81
From the story:
Veterinarian and rancher Mike Vickers heads the Texas Border Volunteers...<snip>
In order to prove their claims that thousands of smugglers and illegal immigrants are crossing private American land, the Texas Border Volunteers have erected hidden cameras and share the images with state and federal agents. Describing one of the pictures, Vickers said, "This individual's got at least 80, maybe 100 pounds on his back. This is probably marijuana with a canvas covering." Another black and white photograph showed a man hoisting a smaller load. "You know he's carrying at least 40 pounds of drugs in that backpack. We suspect cocaine."

O RLY? How do we know that?

I mean, he very well might be right, but he's guessing right there.
 

CrackRabbit

Lifer
Mar 30, 2001
16,642
62
91
I've driven that stretch of I-8 several times.
There is nothing in the way of civilization between Casa Grande and Gila Bend, and it is very very rugged and dry country.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,859
4,972
136



The Pinal County Sheriff is full of half truths, outright lies and hyperbole; he pumps out the fear mongering and the fools in the state legislature send him checks.

Seriously, Pinal County is not the epicenter of smuggling in Arizona, not even close. Babeau is a political opportunist, fear monger and Joe Arpaio wanna be.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
The air force has started deploying a small fleet of predator drones over the southern borders to help . You don't hear a lot about it in the news because they really don't want it plastered all over the tv that they have drones watching the borders, you hear an article about it every now and then but nothing major.

The predator drones can fly for 19 hours without refueling, can track people at night, and fly at heights they cannot be seen from the ground, so they are pretty good at watching the border.


Looks like they will have 6 of them watching the border by year end.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/13/feds-use-more-unmanned-ai_0_n_1090973.html
The agency received its second Predator B aircraft in Texas last month and will add its sixth overall on the Southwest border when another is based in Arizona by the end of the year.

The Predators, which were being used in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, were introduced on the border in 2005, the year before Mexican President Felipe Calderon declared war on his country's drug gangs and violence along the border exploded. Since then, the aircraft have logged more than 10,000 flight hours and aided in intercepting 46,600 pounds of illegal drugs.
 
Last edited: