So... thinking of leave grad school (long post warning)

[njdevilsfan87]

I am Phd student in Mechanical Engineering. My advisor is beginning to stress me the **** out. It's actually been building up for a year now. Up to now, I've learned enough to really take over my work as an almost independent researcher. I'm now entering my third year in this research.

1) He assigns tasks that are very side-tracking to me overall goal. Almost like optimization tasks, that could honestly be another thesis on its own. I get it. Advisors will use their students. I know that. But I'm not here to stay 7 years to obtain my Phd. And getting stressed out over work I feel I shouldn't even be spending my energy on, is very aggravating.

2) When stuff doesn't work, it's almost like it's somehow my fault like. But the thing that bothers me the worst, is the constant asking of "why". Like how should I know why a certain experimental section broke (and then takes time for me to repair). Being asked questions I cannot answer (feeling like I get backed into a corner) is... very depressing almost. Because then I do feel like I am fault. And then I'm just a poor worker. But later once the initial shock wears off, that goes away and starts turning into stress and anger.

3) He does have anger management issues. He seems to take it out on the students that work under him. It doesn't happen all the time, or even that often, but when it does it's just so overboard that it sticks with you. I understand being strict will get more out of your workers. Hell, I definitely accomplished a lot more than I normally would have. But... I'm not sure I'm even happy about that now.

4) We've had 5 or 6 students come and go within the past year. All of these students stuck around for maybe 2 months before leaving. So it's definitely not just me. Or maybe it is? And I was just able to get through enough up until now. Now I'm feeling like I'm at the breaking point.

It's really a shame because I do like the research itself, but it's getting to the point where it's just not feeling worth it anymore. I'm really having thoughts of taking a M.S., as I have done more than enough work to write up a lengthy thesis. And maybe continuing elsewhere should the opportunity of paid education present itself again. But job or none, that's how high my stress levels have gotten. All day. Every day. Here on Friday night I am stressed out over work I'm getting paid a fraction of what I would be getting otherwise in the industry or government. But I don't care about that (the pay). It's just the stress now. It just doesn't stop.

So what it all comes down to : Is this... normal? I was told grad school was tough, but I wasn't expecting anything like this. My head no longer feels like it's in the right place, so I need to get it on straight now.

 

[BoomerD]

Another "Student knows more than teacher" thread...

 

[T9D]

Another "Student knows more than teacher" thread...

Yeah cause all teachers are wonderful and great at what they do

 

[uclaLabrat]

Another "Student knows more than teacher" thread...

First off, you have no fucking clue. I'll leave it there.

 

[uclaLabrat]

I am Phd student in Mechanical Engineering. My advisor is beginning to stress me the **** out. It's actually been building up for a year now. Up to now, I've learned enough to really take over my work as an almost independent researcher. I'm now entering my third in this research.

1) He assigns time wasting tasks. Almost like optimization tasks, that could honestly be someone else's thesis. These experimental tasks, that are a waste of MY time. Because they hold me back from reaching my long term goal. I don't think he quite grasps that setting up and running experiments are very time consuming, and don't allow for much else. Maybe he does, and just doesn't care. If I focus on coding, analyzing data, or reading other papers, I'll likely forget about 50% of the experiments I'm running and "lose them". But if I'm focused on the experiments, it makes it hard to focus on the other work. I wouldn't mind it if it was useful work towards my final goal, but more often than not, it's not. I'm not here to stay 7 years to obtain my Phd. And getting stressed out over work I feel I shouldn't even be doing is very aggravating.

2) When stuff doesn't work, it's almost like it's somehow my fault like I did something wrong. Or when I have an opposing point of view, I just can't be right. Even though I'm the one really investigating a certain area (ie lit. review). But the thing that bothers me the worst, is the constant asking of "why". Like how should I know why the thermocouples solder points came lose? Or why epoxy got into my heating element and caused it to burn out? Maybe I should ask God.

3) He has anger management issues. And the worst part - he seems to take it out on the students that work under him. It doesn't happen all the time, or even that often, but when it does it's just so overboard that it sticks with you.

It's really a shame because I do like the research itself, but it's getting to the point where it's just not feeling worth it anymore. I'm really thinking of just taking a M.S. (I've done more than enough work to write a Master's thesis) and leaving, and maybe continuing elsewhere should the opportunity of paid education present itself again. But job or none, that's how high my stress levels are getting. All day. Every day. It doesn't stop. And now stress is slowly turning into anger.

Is this... normal? I was told grad school was tough, but I wasn't expecting anything like this. I honestly can't think of any time I've ever so stressed out in my entire life.

Second off, yeah, sounds like a fairly typical Ph. D. program. Your relationship with your PI is about average, what are you looking to get out of this? Do you need to have a Ph. D. to do what you want to do? What are your career opportunities without one? In chemistry, you have a ceiling without one, it may be different in M. E. If you have to have one, suck it up and get through it. Learn to manage your boss. Network now, you need connections, especially if you're not sure you can rely on your PI's recommendation. Explore your options. But if you need to have the degree to be where you want to be, stick it out. If you just want a job, you're probably more employable with a M.S.

 

[busydude]

Shit happens man, some times advisors can be a real PITA.. and some do tend make life harder for everyone around them.

My only advise is... rather than leaving altogether why don't you apply to a different university.

 

[UncleWai]

You are getting paid to do research at a university. Life is gonna suck a lot more in the real world.

 

[uclaLabrat]

Shit happens man, some times advisors can be a real PITA.. and some do tend make life harder for everyone around them.

My only advise is... rather than leaving altogether why don't you apply to a different university.

Depends on the situation and the program, he may be able to transfer his coursework, but maybe not. At any rate, he'll throw away any time invested that he already has, and at this rate, he's likely 2 years away from graduating and thus closer to his degree than starting over. Might be better to walk, might be better to stick it out. Might be better to have a come to jesus meeting with the PI.

 

[uclaLabrat]

You are getting paid to do research at a university. Life is gonna suck a lot more in the real world.

Yeah, no. Few things suck more than grad school. But it can be worth it, sometimes. He's probably working twice as hard for a fifth the pay. What do you think the real world is like? My limited experience in industry was absolute cake compared to grad school.

 

[njdevilsfan87]

he's likely 2 years away from graduating and thus closer to his degree than starting over. Might be better to walk, might be better to stick it out. Might be better to have a come to jesus meeting with the PI.

Pretty much. I know where I'm at, and I know the time I've invested. I guess that's also what's stressing me out. I think I will have to have the jesus meeting as well. I just need to be in the right mind when I do, and right now I'm not.

uclaLabrat - thanks for the comments. Really. I appreciate it.

You are getting paid to do research at a university. Life is gonna suck a lot more in the real world.

I have plenty of engineering friends that went on to get jobs with their B.S. degrees and they seem alright. My older brother and his friends have some higher degrees and went on to work in government labs, and they seem pretty happy overall. I get paid to go to school because I picked a degree where something like that... is actually common? Especially when you did very well as an undergraduate student and became involved in uni research such as I did. I didn't just have something like this handed over to me.

 

[uclaLabrat]

Pretty much. I know where I'm at, and I know the time I've invested. I guess that's also what's stressing me out. I think I will have to have the jesus meeting as well. I just need to be in the right mind when I do, and right now I'm not.

uclaLabrat - thanks for the comments. Really. I appreciate it.



I have plenty of engineering friends that went on to get jobs with their B.S. degrees and they seem alright. My older brother and his friends have some higher degrees and went on to work in government labs, and they seem pretty happy overall. I get paid to go to school because I picked a degree where something like that... is actually common? Especially when you did very well as an undergraduate student and became involved in uni research such as I did. I didn't just have something like this handed over to me.

You busted your balls and did well, but every science and engineering Ph. D. gets paid to go to school, or should. You're already a slave, it would be a crock of shit to actually have to pay to BE a slave.

Honestly, in all fairness, your boss is just questioning you, and I think I'll reply to you OP in bold.

 

[Red Squirrel]

TLDR but never quit school. Yes school is pretty much pointless as far as skill goes, the system is broken, but just go with it, get your papers, then you'll have an easier time getting a job.

I actually got offered a job after my 1st year of college, I was summer student and they were ready to hire me as full time. I was thankful for the offer but completed my remaining 2 years, I wanted to play it safe. I ended up working for the same company anyway, but had I not finished those 2 years, and something happens down the line where I get laid off I would be screwed.

 

[uclaLabrat]

I am Phd student in Mechanical Engineering. My advisor is beginning to stress me the **** out. It's actually been building up for a year now. Up to now, I've learned enough to really take over my work as an almost independent researcher. I'm now entering my third year in this research.
Depends on your outlook. I was never an independent researcher, I was always essentially a hired gun. I never picked a project since I went to grad school, including two post docs. I was told, "this is what we have, this is where we're trying to go, get us there". I succeeded and failed. I had good times and some really, really fucking shitty ones. 10% good, 90% shitty. And I got out the other side realizing, holy shit, I have to go back to school to get a job. Which is where I am now, because the reality of the world is that no one wants just a Ph. D., unless you're the top 5% of Ph. D.s Because now, those guys are just commodities, and they're being shipped to China and India.

1) He assigns time wasting tasks. Almost like optimization tasks, that could honestly be someone else's thesis. These experimental tasks, that are a waste of MY time. Because they hold me back from reaching my long term goal. I don't think he quite grasps that setting up and running experiments are very time consuming, and don't allow for much else. Maybe he does, and just doesn't care. If I focus on coding, analyzing data, or reading other papers, I'll likely forget about 50% of the experiments I'm running and "lose them". But if I'm focused on the experiments, it makes it hard to focus on the other work. I wouldn't mind it if it was useful work towards my final goal, but more often than not, it's not. I'm not here to stay 7 years to obtain my Phd. And getting stressed out over work I feel I shouldn't even be doing is very aggravating. Yeah, that's a test. He's been there, he knows. Maybe he thinks you're not working hard enough. Maybe he's insane. If so, you picked a shitty boss. Hopefully you picked a shitty boss who was at least famous, because you can get something out of it. If not, that sucks. Now you just have to deal with it. You have to understand his frame of mind: He got a Ph. D., made it through the hiring process (which is brutal) and is a professor. Maybe even with Tenure (god help you if he isn't). He's fairly well convinced (with at least a good amount of evidence) that his shit doesn't stink. However, he's human, and therefore wrong more often that not. But he doesn't know that. As far as he is concerned, he may not be a walking deity, but he's close.

2) When stuff doesn't work, it's almost like it's somehow my fault like I did something wrong. Or when I have an opposing point of view, I just can't be right. Even though I'm the one really investigating a certain area (ie lit. review). But the thing that bothers me the worst, is the constant asking of "why". Like how should I know why the thermocouples solder points came lose? Or why epoxy got into my heating element and caused it to burn out? Maybe I should ask God. Two points: Maybe he's testing you. It is his job, after all, to make sure you know your shit. You're his brand. If you can't come up with at least a plausible answer as to why something fucked up, it looks bad on him. You are his product. If that stresses you out, you're in the wrong business. It's ok to be wrong, but at least be wrong with a defensible position. Make some shit up if you have to, but for fuck's sake, figure it out. It may not be your fault, maybe it is, but you better be able to fucking explain it. Any idiot can say "I don't know", but a Ph. D. should be able to say "I don't know, but here's what I think..."

3) He has anger management issues. And the worst part - he seems to take it out on the students that work under him. It doesn't happen all the time, or even that often, but when it does it's just so overboard that it sticks with you.
Shocking. Scientists, engineers, and Ph. D. in general are maladjusted, socially retarded, ugly, stupid fuckwits. They don't give a flying goddamn about you or your problems, and if they did, they still wouldn't know how to deal with them. Seriously. They're fucking idiots who don't understand the human psyche. They love what they do, and don't understand why anyone else doesn't. That's why they're proffs: it takes that level of commitment (or retardation) to make it to that level, it's self-selecting.

4) We've had 5 or 6 students come and go within the past year. All of these students stuck around for maybe 2 months before leaving. So it's definitely not just me. Yeah, welcome to academia. You only have to have a good research CV to be a proff...they don't teach management courses in grad school....and if they did, everyone would fail and there'd be no professors. Bad managers are the norm rather than the exception (true in industry as well) so suck it up and learn how to manage people (and expectations) yourself.

It's really a shame because I do like the research itself, but it's getting to the point where it's just not feeling worth it anymore. I'm really thinking of just taking a M.S. (I've done more than enough work to write a Master's thesis) and leaving, and maybe continuing elsewhere should the opportunity of paid education present itself again. But job or none, that's how high my stress levels are getting. All day. Every day. It doesn't stop. And now stress is slowly turning into anger. You've got a lot more invested already than you have left to complete, so you really need to ask yourself if it's worth it to walk away....see my previous comments. If it's what you need to do to get where you want to be, stick it out, sack up, hunker down, and fucking get through it. If your boss is a homicidal maniac (or makes you want to turn into one, google the stanford solution math department, it might come up) then get the fuck out and re-evaluate....go somewhere else if you need to, walk with a master's if you don't.

Is this... normal? I was told grad school was tough, but I wasn't expecting anything like this. I honestly can't think of any time I've ever so stressed out in my entire life. Yeah, pretty normal.

In bold.

 

[uclaLabrat]

TLDR but never quit school. Yes school is pretty much pointless as far as skill goes, the system is broken, but just go with it, get your papers, then you'll have an easier time getting a job.

I actually got offered a job after my 1st year of college, I was summer student and they were ready to hire me as full time. I was thankful for the offer but completed my remaining 2 years, I wanted to play it safe. I ended up working for the same company anyway, but had I not finished those 2 years, and something happens down the line where I get laid off I would be screwed.

Also, pretty much ignore very word of this. Including "I got offered a job" cause it won't happen to you straight out of school.

ok, it might, engineers are much more employable than scientists, but still, it's rough out there.

 

[uclaLabrat]

Also, brodeur is god, but the devils are dogshit and you should feel bad.

 

[njdevilsfan87]

Also, brodeur is god, but the devils are dogshit and you should feel bad.

This is all Kovalchuk's fault. Why do I still have him on my avatar? I need it changed asap. But priorities...

Also, sorry for the first post edit. I really needed to cut it down. Too much gibberish and written in a state that was... less stable than right now. Time for bed.

 

[Anonemous]

It's normal to feel what you are going through. There are tons of horror grad stories out there. Some of my colleagues had to go through 2-3 bipolar advisors, spending almost 8 years to graduate for an engineering degree (normal is 4-5). It comes down to you and like what uclalabrat said, there's no shame in a Masters (a lot of people in my program left and got jobs in industry). Actually a Masters will get your foot faster in Industry than a PhD (at least in my experience). If you want to pursue academia then be prepared to put up with this BS. It's cutthroat and I remember how some advisors would pit students against each other to publish x papers in a semester to avoid being cut from the lab.

 

[uclaLabrat]

This is all Kovalchuk's fault. Why do I still have him on my avatar? I need it changed asap. But priorities...

Also, sorry for the first post edit. I really needed to cut it down. Too much gibberish and written in a state that was... less stable than right now. Time for bed.

Jesus, your problem is fixing shit that doesn't need to be fixed...your first post was fine, and I ain't doing a re-write :biggrin:


I'm going to go all matrix on you: welcome to real life, there's a difference between knowing the path, and walking it. Grad school is hard because it forces you to grow under the most adverse conditions. Some people can adapt and overcome, some people can't, and some people decide it isn't worth it and quit. Decide which one you are soon, but do it objectively. There's no shame in quitting now if it gets you to where you want to go, with less pain and misery. In fact, that's the smart play...but if it doesn't, you better sack up and deal with it, because you'll never forgive yourself if you don't.

 

[gotsmack]

I agree with uclalabrat, on #2. You're a PhD student. It's your job to know why.

 

[Ricemarine]

It's your job to be a leader. It's his job to be a boss.

 

[OverVolt]

Here on Friday night I am stressed out over work I'm getting paid a fraction of what I would be getting otherwise in the industry or government.

This is probably false if you don't finish your program

 

[gorcorps]

Sounds like you're being prepared to handle the real world. This is exactly how some bosses act, and if you can't handle it now you may have a tough time later.


Good luck

 

[Azraele]

Is it possible to switch advisers?

 

[Whisper]

Second off, yeah, sounds like a fairly typical Ph. D. program. Your relationship with your PI is about average, what are you looking to get out of this? Do you need to have a Ph. D. to do what you want to do? What are your career opportunities without one? In chemistry, you have a ceiling without one, it may be different in M. E. If you have to have one, suck it up and get through it. Learn to manage your boss. Network now, you need connections, especially if you're not sure you can rely on your PI's recommendation. Explore your options. But if you need to have the degree to be where you want to be, stick it out. If you just want a job, you're probably more employable with a M.S.

Pretty much this. My experience was actually a very positive one, but I know quite a few folks (especially in engineering) whose grad school lives were very similar to what the OP's described. Ultimately, you just have to decide if you need a Ph.D., and/or if sticking around is worth it to you.

That being said, if you've already invested a couple years, my gut reaction is that you should stick it out. It's a bit odd, though, that within just the past year 5-6 folks have come and gone after ~2 months. That's just...weird for a doctoral program.

If you stick around, do everything you can to get a group of friends who either aren't in grad school, or at least aren't in your area of study. Hang out with them often. Find hobbies (e.g., the gym) that will help keep you sane. Grad school sucks, but it does end eventually.

 

[alphatarget1]

What's your research topic if you don't mind sharing?