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so there's an asian guy in the NBA that's not 8 ft tall?

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pelov said:
I agree, but the Knicks didn't because he isn't worth that much cash.

Marketing and fan appeal Lin has aside, the Knicks need a championship. It's been near 30 years since the last one. That's the #1 goal. I've been to MSG many times and I've been to Knick games. Believe me, they don't need a Jeremy Lin to sell tickets. You've also got Carmelo and Stoudemire, and Lin, while he's a decent player, doesn't mesh with the team they have. The Knicks could afford paying him that much, luxury tax or not. They've got billions and an owner with billions so the money, while it was part of the problem, wasn't the only reason they let him walk. They genuinely believed they could be a better team without him and he wasn't worth that much money when they can spend it elsewhere. Considering how he played with Carmelo in the lineup (who's not going anywhere) and how his numbers took a nosedive, mainly his poor assist-to-TO ratio, means that you need a better pure PG like a Rondo rather than a scorer like Lin.
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The Knicks are idiots, flat out. Quit talking about championships. With or without Lin it ain't happening. What they did do though is totally lose tons of cash and they lost a much better point guard than anything currently on the team. Now instead of the whole world wanting to watch primetime big money making games of the knicks featuring Lin and Melo-drama and that whole fiasco, the knicks are right back at the boring mediocre team they've been for the last decade that no one cares to watch.
So they lost out on tons of revenue and lost a better player than Jason "I should retire" Kidd and fat Felton.
I also didn't mention they are in salary cap hell anyways so they aren't making any significant moves regardless.
 
OILFIELDTRASH said:
The Knicks are idiots, flat out. Quit talking about championships. With or without Lin it ain't happening. What they did do though is totally lose tons of cash and they lost a much better point guard than anything currently on the team.
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Lin is not a passing point guard, he's a shooting guard in a PG position.

The Knicks don't need the cash. It's less about the cash and more about having a better team. This is the NY Knicks we're talking about, not the Toronto who-fucking-cares-when-they're-playing Raptors.

The Knicks had no trouble scoring. They ranked 11th in scoring in the league but they had way too many TO's. Lin would help with the scoring, which doesn't need help, but would add to the ball TO rate and wouldn't offer much on the defensive end. Melo is even worse defensively, but Melo is also a much better scorer.

The Knicks wouldn't be a better team with Lin playing unless Melo was traded or dropped. Since that wasn't going to happen they let him go. They're not winning the title with Kidd or Felton, but at least they have a better shot of getting through the first round of the playoffs than they would have with Lin there. The team as a whole was unimpressive with Jeremy Lin playing a large role in the offense (his defense is crap), so they offered the money they thought he was worth and they wouldn't overpay yet another mediocre player a large sum of money.

I feel as though everyone forgot that Lin had as many shitty games as he had good games and somehow everyone got caught up in the momentum in the beginning that they completely forgot he sucked it up after. The team flat out didn't impress with Lin playing and Melo there.
 
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pelov said:
...The team as a whole was unimpressive with Jeremy Lin playing a large role in the offense (his defense is crap), so they offered the money they thought he was worth and they wouldn't overpay yet another mediocre player a large sum of money....
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http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id...g-new-york-knicks-james-dolan-blundered-again

Does it seem weird to anyone else that the one team willing to take on Lin's now-huge salary is the one team that has direct knowledge of just how much money an Asian star player can bring a franchise via international marketing?

I'm just asking.
 
sunzt said:
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id...g-new-york-knicks-james-dolan-blundered-again

Does it seem weird to anyone else that the one team willing to take on Lin's now-huge salary is the one team that has direct knowledge of just how much money an Asian star player can bring a franchise via international marketing?

I'm just asking.
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They don't need the money. It would help and it'd be nice, sure, but the Knicks need a better team first and foremost with the money as an afterthought. This was quite clear with the cash they threw at Melo, Stoudemire and Chandler. Offense, offense/defense and defense respectively.

But about the money... would you pay an unproven player that kind of cash that has shown he can't function well under new management and with the returning big names? That's been anything but consistent on both ends of the floor?

Chandler won defensive player of the year last season and has consistently proven he's a great defensive player. He earned his paycheck and the team is better with him there.

Melo is one of the best scoring players in the league and has been one of the leading scorers in the league for his entire career. He was also the #1 scorer for the Knicks. He earned his paycheck.

Stoudemire I think is overrated, but he brings a mix of offense and defense that the Knicks need. He had some great seasons in a Suns uniform and he clearly wants the team to win and gives it his all (remember him punching a fucking fire extinguisher when they lost? not exactly the brightest idea, but at least you know he's devoted to the franchise).

Lin OTOH went up and then fell back down to earth. He played extremely well under the old head coach who could barely get the team to break .500 and with their leading scorer out. As soon as his offensive role diminished he showed that he was a shitty PG who turned the ball over way too many times and couldn't gel with Carmelo there and the new coach's style of running both ends of the court.

Is he worth 30-40mil if you don't exactly need the money? Is he even worth the roster space or a starting PG position considering he didn't play well with the team under the coach and all the players there?
 
pelov said:
Lin OTOH went up and then fell back down to earth. He played extremely well under the old head coach who could barely get the team to break .500 and with their leading scorer out. As soon as his offensive role diminished he showed that he was a shitty PG who turned the ball over way too many times and couldn't gel with Carmelo there and the new coach's style of running both ends of the court.
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you keep lying about this. lin/melo/amare were rolling together under woodson, to the tune of 6-1 or 7-1, with lin flat out dominating the pacers twice and 76ers.

"here's what YOU are currently ducking:

why did you duck the medical reports?
why did you duck max and marcellus citing factual salary cap figures?
why did you duck video proof of lin playing well with melo and amare under woodson (and winning at that)?
why did you duck the grantland factual article destroying your entire dollar argument?

edit: 😀😀😀😀😀😀 inc more duckings.
 
I was just struck by the fact that the Knicks went out and got Jason Kidd, Marcus Camby and Kurt Thomas. That's three of the six oldest players in the league. Are they trying to qualify for social security? Are they hoping they can swing deals for Juwan Howard and Grant Hill, then set the record for "Oldest 5 man unit fielded by an NBA franchise," a record which probably doesn't exist, but absolutely should? Or is Dolan hoping that surrounding Anthony with people who can't move will just help when they're all standing around watching him hold the ball for 20 seconds and jack up a brick?

Back on topic, Jeremy Lin is better than Ray Felton. Anyone who thinks otherwise didn't watch Ray Felton last year. I did. A lot. I saw Felton in around 50 games, and he looked just flat-out awful. Jamal Crawford made a better point guard than Felton last year, and he was having his worst year in a decade. I also got to see Lin, since ESPN hopped on that bandwagon, and he had his moments of looking really good and his moments of looking totally outclassed. But he was better than Felton. Felton really has only ever put up good numbers under D'Antoni... whoops.
 
http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/sto...-turnovers-end-new-york-knicks-winning-streak

Two can play this game.

you keep lying about this. lin/melo/amare were rolling together under woodson, to the tune of 6-1 or 7-1, with lin flat out dominating the pacers twice and 76ers.
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His 45 turnovers in his first seven career starts were the most since individual turnovers began being tracked in 1977–78
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Lin averaged 18.5 points and 7.6 assists during his 26 games as an everyday player. In the first 10 games, he averaged 24.6 points and 9.2 assists, shooting 49.7 percent from the field but with 5.6 turnovers [D'Antoni]. In the next seven games, he averaged 16 points and 7.7 assists with 3.9 turnovers. In the last nine games, Lin averaged 13.6 points and 5.9 assists and shot only 39.1 percent while dealing with his then-undisclosed knee injury.
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This is also a good read and parallels the current Lin situation with an up-and-coming player given the spotlight in the absence of the star player(s).

Lin missed 12 regular season games at the end due to the injury.

Without Lin the Knicks went from 27-27 to 36-30 to finish off the season. Hardly missing him, wouldn't you agree?

With Lin playing his first significant minutes (double digits) the team started 7 straight wins. Then it came crashing down with them winning 3 and losing the next 9. After the 7-0 run they were 9-10 with him playing significant minutes until his injury.

You'll have to forgive me, I don't see the reason for the hype.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–12_New_York_Knicks_season
 
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pelov said:
Lin is not a passing point guard, he's a shooting guard in a PG position.

The Knicks don't need the cash. It's less about the cash and more about having a better team. This is the NY Knicks we're talking about, not the Toronto who-fucking-cares-when-they're-playing Raptors.

The Knicks had no trouble scoring. They ranked 11th in scoring in the league but they had way too many TO's. Lin would help with the scoring, which doesn't need help, but would add to the ball TO rate and wouldn't offer much on the defensive end. Melo is even worse defensively, but Melo is also a much better scorer.

The Knicks wouldn't be a better team with Lin playing unless Melo was traded or dropped. Since that wasn't going to happen they let him go. They're not winning the title with Kidd or Felton, but at least they have a better shot of getting through the first round of the playoffs than they would have with Lin there. The team as a whole was unimpressive with Jeremy Lin playing a large role in the offense (his defense is crap), so they offered the money they thought he was worth and they wouldn't overpay yet another mediocre player a large sum of money.

I feel as though everyone forgot that Lin had as many shitty games as he had good games and somehow everyone got caught up in the momentum in the beginning that they completely forgot he sucked it up after. The team flat out didn't impress with Lin playing and Melo there.
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Bolded is not a bad thing in todays NBA. See Westbrook, Rose, Wade, etc.. for examples. Traditional point guards are nice but not necessarily a deal breaker. There are only a few guys you can call true points so if you're knocking Lin for it you should be knocking 90% of the other guards in the league as well.
I don't really see why you keep bringing up the better team aspect? I don't really see it as a valid discussion. The knicks with Lin are a better team. If Lin was taking time from DWill or Nash you'd have an argument but its Lin vs Kidd or Felton.
You also haven't explained how the knicks are using the money they saved to acquire better players.
 
al981 said:
you keep lying about this. lin/melo/amare were rolling together under woodson, to the tune of 6-1 or 7-1, with lin flat out dominating the pacers twice and 76ers.

"here's what YOU are currently ducking:

why did you duck the medical reports?
why did you duck max and marcellus citing factual salary cap figures?
why did you duck video proof of lin playing well with melo and amare under woodson (and winning at that)?
why did you duck the grantland factual article destroying your entire dollar argument?

edit: 😀😀😀😀😀😀 inc more duckings.
Click to expand...


Holy cr@p I just remembered why I put you on 'ignore.' Are there any fvcking threads in this forum you're not combative in? Even if by chance you make a good point you're attacks are annoying as hail.
 
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OILFIELDTRASH said:
You also haven't explained how the knicks are using the money they saved to acquire better players.
Click to expand...

I agree with that, though. They made horrible moves in the off-season but keeping Lin on a lavish contract wouldn't have been a good move either.

They shouldn't have signed Kidd and they shouldn't have signed Camby either. Felton played well for NY when he played for the Knicks. They should also cut Baron Davis and they shouldn't have let Fields go. What this has to do with keeping Lin, though, I suppose I can ask you that as well...

Knicks made stupid moves in the off-season but letting him go was actually one of the better ones. Unfortunately, in typical Knicks fashion it's one step forward and 2 steps back.
 
pelov said:
I agree with that, though. They made horrible moves in the off-season but keeping Lin on a lavish contract wouldn't have been a good move either.

They shouldn't have signed Kidd and they shouldn't have signed Camby either. Felton played well for NY when he played for the Knicks. They should also cut Baron Davis and they shouldn't have let Fields go. What this has to do with keeping Lin, though, I suppose I can ask you that as well...

Knicks made stupid moves in the off-season but letting him go was actually one of the better ones. Unfortunately, in typical Knicks fashion it's one step forward and 2 steps back.
Click to expand...

Its relevant to the knicks because they are in salary cap hell and really have no way of improving the team. They were able to keep Lin's bird rights so they could go over the salary cap to sign him. With the albatross contracts of Amare, Chandler, and Melo this is basically their only avenue of retaining/obtaining some young talent with loads of potential. It might be a bit much for what he's shown on the court but the knicks don't have any other avenues for improving and there is a small window for their big three to get something done.
 
pelov said:
snipped for hilarity
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you continuously cite games pre woodson. danphoney games do not count (read: when linsanity was at its "peak"), since danphoney is long gone, and for good reason.

it was YOUR claim that lin doesn't work with melo and amare. under danphoney no, because he's a shit coach. under woodson (and top eastern teams), they all excelled together, as proven by his statistics, video, and 7-1 record. and he went against some of the best defensive teams/guards /centers during that run as well.

you have outright refused to acknowledge such a basic fact. keep ducking and citing jordan flu games, mental midget 😀
 
jjsole said:
Holy cr@p I just remembered why I put you on 'ignore.' Are there any fvcking threads in this forum you're not combative in? Even if by chance you make a good point you're attacks are annoying as hail.
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this isn't the first time you've whined about another poster making you feel uncomfortable. i'd suggest you man up and grow a pair.
 
al981 said:
this isn't the first time you've whined about another poster making you feel uncomfortable. i'd suggest you man up and grow a pair.
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I just find you annoying as fvck with the social skills of a frustrated 13 child who didn't get dessert because he wouldn't eat his peas. That's all I'll say about this.
 
OILFIELDTRASH said:
Its relevant to the knicks because they are in salary cap hell and really have no way of improving the team. They were able to keep Lin's bird rights so they could go over the salary cap to sign him. With the albatross contracts of Amare, Chandler, and Melo this is basically their only avenue of retaining/obtaining some young talent with loads of potential. It might be a bit much for what he's shown on the court but the knicks don't have any other avenues for improving and there is a small window for their big three to get something done.
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chandler and camby should be keeping things in check, even with shumpert out. and it should allow melo / smith's chucking continuously to still get them far in the playoffs.

no baron davis sucking it up is also a big plus.

citing factual salary cap issues is too much to handle for little pelov, btw!
 
OILFIELDTRASH said:
Its relevant to the knicks because they are in salary cap hell and really have no way of improving the team. They were able to keep Lin's bird rights so they could go over the salary cap to sign him. With the albatross contracts of Amare, Chandler, and Melo this is basically their only avenue of retaining/obtaining some young talent with loads of potential. It might be a bit much for what he's shown on the court but the knicks don't have any other avenues for improving and there is a small window for their big three to get something done.
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So that would have been the least worst move?

The Knicks have never been consistent with respect to attracting and keeping talent. Letting Lin go considering the ridiculous amount of money Houston tacked onto his contract was at least sensible. The team played well under Woodson without Lin but they clearly needed a PG. They went out and got two of them. Granted, they're not the youngest, most slim and athletic and nor are they going to bring them a championship, they at least recognized they needed a solid PG who makes smart decisions and won't cough up the ball every time they head down the court like Lin did. To cure that ailment they picked up an old and fat but still smart PG in Jason Kidd (arguably the smartest PG to ever play the game with regards to decision making on the court). I think Woodson might have signed Kidd to mentor Lin into the player that the Knicks needed but Houston offered Lin too much money and the Knicks, sensibly, wouldn't match it. Felton might have been one of those "Oh shit, what do we do now?" signings.

Lin leaves, Knicks are stuck with an aged player without anyone to teach and a mediocre Felton (who I think is a better match for NY than Lin with this current lineup and system).
 
jjsole said:
I just find you annoying as fvck with the social skills of a frustrated 13 child who didn't get dessert because he wouldn't eat his peas. That's all I'll say about this.
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annoying because i call out liars and dodgers until they man up and respond?

tough shit for you, son. i would suggest you man up and grow a pair as well.
 
pelov said:
Felton played well for NY when he played for the Knicks.
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He played for the Knicks two years ago in a D'Antoni system that makes point guards look good. He's now older, that coach is gone, and he's packed on 30 pounds of "not muscle." Maybe you're blinded by nostalgia; did you watch a single Blazers game last year? It wasn't good.
 
Atomic Playboy said:
He played for the Knicks two years ago in a D'Antoni system that makes point guards look good. He's now older, that coach is gone, and he's packed on 30 pounds of "not muscle." Maybe you're blinded by nostalgia; did you watch a single Blazers game last year? It wasn't good.
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Yea, he did slump. But, again, I don't think the Knicks were planning on losing Lin to Houston either until they upped the offer or heard rumors of Houston pretty much willing to do anything to get him.

Not the smartest decision, no, but keep in mind the Knicks played very well without Lin under Woodson as well. With Lin or with Felton or without either of them, that's unlikely to change.
 
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