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So there is a consensus on global warming huh?

ProfJohn

Lifer
In thread after thread the GW crowd rolls out their lines about how united the scientific community is on GW and how there is this great consensus on global warming.
But the truth seems to be far from what they want us to believe.

When Al Gore made this 1992 statement "Only an insignificant fraction of scientists deny the global warming crisis. The time for debate is over. The science is settled." 53% of scientists actively involved in global climate research did believe GW had occurred. So much for the debate being settled huh?

But wait there is more?.
A survey of the National Registry of Environmental Professionals found only 59% think human activities are largely responsible for the warming that has occurred. Some consensus huh?

I wonder how much longer before we can take the GW debate out of the hands of the politicians and fear mongers and return it to the scientific community.
Link
Only an insignificant fraction of scientists deny the global warming crisis. The time for debate is over. The science is settled."

S o said Al Gore ... in 1992. Amazingly, he made his claims despite much evidence of their falsity. A Gallup poll at the time reported that 53% of scientists actively involved in global climate research did not believe global warming had occurred; 30% weren't sure; and only 17% believed global warming had begun. Even a Greenpeace poll showed 47% of climatologists didn't think a runaway greenhouse effect was imminent; only 36% thought it possible and a mere 13% thought it probable.

Today, Al Gore is making the same claims of a scientific consensus, as do the United Nation's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and hundreds of government agencies and environmental groups around the world. But the claims of a scientific consensus remain unsubstantiated. They have only become louder and more frequent

More than six months ago, I began writing this series, The Deniers. When I began, I accepted the prevailing view that scientists overwhelmingly believe that climate change threatens the planet. I doubted only claims that the dissenters were either kooks on the margins of science or sell-outs in the pockets of the oil companies.

My series set out to profile the dissenters -- those who deny that the science is settled on climate change -- and to have their views heard. To demonstrate that dissent is credible, I chose high-ranking scientists at the world's premier scientific establishments. I considered stopping after writing six profiles, thinking I had made my point, but continued the series due to feedback from readers. I next planned to stop writing after 10 profiles, then 12, but the feedback increased. Now, after profiling more than 20 deniers, I do not know when I will stop -- the list of distinguished scientists who question the IPCC grows daily, as does the number of emails I receive, many from scientists who express gratitude for my series.

Somewhere along the way, I stopped believing that a scientific consensus exists on climate change. Certainly there is no consensus at the very top echelons of scientists -- the ranks from which I have been drawing my subjects -- and certainly there is no consensus among astrophysicists and other solar scientists, several of whom I have profiled. If anything, the majority view among these subsets of the scientific community may run in the opposite direction. Not only do most of my interviewees either discount or disparage the conventional wisdom as represented by the IPCC, many say their peers generally consider it to have little or no credibility. In one case, a top scientist told me that, to his knowledge, no respected scientist in his field accepts the IPCC position.

What of the one claim that we hear over and over again, that 2,000 or 2,500 of the world's top scientists endorse the IPCC position? I asked the IPCC for their names, to gauge their views. "The 2,500 or so scientists you are referring to are reviewers from countries all over the world," the IPCC Secretariat responded. "The list with their names and contacts will be attached to future IPCC publications, which will hopefully be on-line in the second half of 2007."

An IPCC reviewer does not assess the IPCC's comprehensive findings. He might only review one small part of one study that later becomes one small input to the published IPCC report. Far from endorsing the IPCC reports, some reviewers, offended at what they considered a sham review process, have demanded that the IPCC remove their names from the list of reviewers. One even threatened legal action when the IPCC refused.

A great many scientists, without doubt, are four-square in their support of the IPCC. A great many others are not. A petition organized by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine between 1999 and 2001 claimed some 17,800 scientists in opposition to the Kyoto Protocol. A more recent indicator comes from the U.S.-based National Registry of Environmental Professionals, an accrediting organization whose 12,000 environmental practitioners have standing with U.S. government agencies such as the Environmental Protection Agency and the Department of Energy. In a November, 2006, survey of its members, it found that only 59% think human activities are largely responsible for the warming that has occurred, and only 39% make their priority the curbing of carbon emissions. And 71% believe the increase in hurricanes is likely natural, not easily attributed to human activities.

Such diversity of views is also present in the wider scientific community, as seen in the World Federation of Scientists, an organization formed during the Cold War to encourage dialogue among scientists to prevent nuclear catastrophe. The federation, which encompasses many of the world's most eminent scientists and today represents more than 10,000 scientists, now focuses on 15 "planetary emergencies," among them water, soil, food, medicine and biotechnology, and climatic changes. Within climatic changes, there are eight priorities, one being "Possible human influences on climate and on atmospheric composition and chemistry (e.g. increased greenhouse gases and tropospheric ozone)."

Man-made global warming deserves study, the World Federation of Scientists believes, but so do other serious climatic concerns. So do 14 other planetary emergencies. That seems about right. - Lawrence Solomon is executive director of Urban Renaissance Institute and Consumer Policy Institute, divisions of Energy Probe Research Foundation.
 
You know what? You're right. If only 60% of scientists in the field accept that humans are largely responsible, (with god knows how many accepting that humans are partially responsible) I guess that means global warming isn't real.

Same goes for all your other threads. If Al Gore uses paper instead of plastic at the supermarket, that also means global warming isn't real.

Although I think that article and their poll are crap, it isn't even important. Say you are 100% right and humans only play a small role in global warming. (that we do play a role is, I believe beyond dispute by even the craziest most bought off global warming deniers) The results of this warming are... catastrophic. If we can prevent even 1 degree of warming from occuring, that will mitigate the catastrophe... and is certainly worth it. To not act in the face of this is mind bogglingly arrogant and stupid.

How incredibly stupid would we sound to future generations if global warming is correct when our excuse is "well, only 60% of our scientists thought we were largely responsible".
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
You know what? You're right. If only 60% of scientists in the field accept that humans are largely responsible, (with god knows how many accepting that humans are partially responsible) I guess that means global warming isn't real.

Same goes for all your other threads. If Al Gore uses paper instead of plastic at the supermarket, that also means global warming isn't real.

Although I think that article and their poll are crap, it isn't even important. Say you are 100% right and humans only play a small role in global warming. (that we do play a role is, I believe beyond dispute by even the craziest most bought off global warming deniers) The results of this warming are... catastrophic. If we can prevent even 1 degree of warming from occuring, that will mitigate the catastrophe... and is certainly worth it. To not act in the face of this is mind bogglingly arrogant and stupid.

How incredibly stupid would we sound to future generations if global warming is correct when our excuse is "well, only 60% of our scientists thought we were largely responsible".
I still say it - if it comes to pass that global warming does cause catastrophic consequences, we will hear one or more of these:
From the government: "No one could have predicted that this would happen."
From the citizens: "Why didn't the scientific community warn us about this?"
"Why didn't the government do anything about this?"
 
What's the problem here, except partisan nonsense? The earth is ALWAYS either warming or cooling. Throughout its 4 billion years, it's either one or the other. I, for one, am glad that it's warming rather than cooling in my lifespan.

Oh sh!t... did I step on your agenda? <^>
 
Originally posted by: Vic
What's the problem here, except partisan nonsense? The earth is ALWAYS either warming or cooling. Throughout its 4 billion years, it's either one or the other. I, for one, am glad that it's warming rather than cooling in my lifespan.

Oh sh!t... did I step on your agenda? <^>

:thumbsup: :laugh:
 
Originally posted by: Vic
What's the problem here, except partisan nonsense? The earth is ALWAYS either warming or cooling. Throughout its 4 billion years, it's either one or the other. I, for one, am glad that it's warming rather than cooling in my lifespan.

Oh sh!t... did I step on your agenda? <^>

Wow, Vic. I'm nearly speechless.. umm, excellent post. Very concise! :thumbsup:


obligatory liberal response to ProjJohn..
"The guy writing that article is in Canada, and everyone knows those selfish Canadians have everything to gain from global warming!!11!!1"
 
the only reason our industrial base so despises those that champion a cleaner environment and doing something about global warming is that it gets in the way of acquiring higher short term profit margins and the fact that there's hardly a way to make fighting global warming a a"for-huge-instant-profit" venture.

this is, to me anyway, the crux of the problem we face in deciding whether to buy in to the idea that we humans are a major contributor toward global warming or not. if big business could figure out a way to make fighting global warming profitable, it wouldn't be the contentious issue that it is. for many, if ignoring the warning signs that we're now getting from those in the science community meant more pay and higher returns on investments then so be it. for them, there will never ever be enough "concrete" evidence to change their opinion on the matter. their priorities are elsewhere. therefore, the effects we humans have on global warming must be either played down or ignored.

it's silly to encourage big business and those whose livelihoods depend on it to give up their mindset when even their businesses' long term projections are based on short term gains. for them, deconstructing the regulatory agencies that cost them potential profits is a major part of their agenda. discrediting, minimizing or eliminating those that would stand in the way of more profit is only natural.

what seems logical though, is that we're ignoring the debt-ridden back end of the deal to make the front end pay off at a higher rate. so be it. for some it's a worthwhile gamble because they feel they won't be around by the time the balloon payement is due. i guess they do not care about the fact that it's their children that will suffer the consequences of their actions.

what's being ignored here is that we're accellerating our own demise faster than we can turn a dime into a dollar.

i can hear it now: "so what are you going to do about huh?"

to that i reply: i do what i can practically do at my level. however, it's not me that decides whether to gut our regulatory agencies to provide an easier path to profit and let the consumer beware. it's not me that pays our politicians millions in campaign donations to "see things their way". it's not me that voted for those that are pro-business/anti-environmental. however, there are industries that are proactive about how their business practices affect our environment and i support them wholeheartedly.

a really great place to start is to just enforce the regulations that are already on the books. the current administration is well-known for turning a blind eye and deaf ear toward those heavy industries that are major polluters just as it is well known for doing the same about our borders in the name of helping big business squeeze profits out of an already well-wrung corrupted rag. what's so wrong with simply obeying the law of the land?

oh, yeah....profits... it's all about the profits.







 
Text

Climate change sceptics sometimes claim that many leading scientists question climate change. Well, it all depends on what you mean by "many" and "leading". For instance, in April 2006, 60 "leading scientists" signed a letter urging Canada's new prime minister to review his country's commitment to the Kyoto protocol.

This appears to be the biggest recent list of sceptics. Yet many, if not most, of the 60 signatories are not actively engaged in studying climate change: some are not scientists at all and at least 15 are retired.

Compare that with the dozens of statements on climate change from various scientific organisations around the world representing tens of thousands of scientists, the consensus position represented by the IPCC reports and the 11,000 signatories to a petition condemning the Bush administration's stance on climate science.

The fact is that there is an overwhelming consensus in the scientific community about global warming and its causes. There are some exceptions, but the number of sceptics is getting smaller rather than growing.

Even the position of perhaps the most respected sceptic, Richard Lindzen of MIT, is not that far off the mainstream: he does not deny it is happening but thinks future warming will not be nearly as great as most predict.

Of course, just because most scientists think something is true does not necessarily mean they are right. But the reason they think the way they do is because of the vast and growing body of evidence. A study in 2004 looked at the abstracts of nearly 1000 scientific papers containing the term "global climate change" published in the previous decade. Not one rejected the consensus position. One critic promptly claimed this study was wrong ? but later quietly withdrew the claim.

It doesn't matter how many irrelevant bloggers whine about there being no consensus. In the scientific community the reality is that almost every peer-reviewed paper takes the consensus view - that anthropogenic global warming is real.

Text

BEYOND THE IVORY TOWER:
The Scientific Consensus on Climate Change
Naomi Oreskes*

Policy-makers and the media, particularly in the United States, frequently assert that climate science is highly uncertain. Some have used this as an argument against adopting strong measures to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. For example, while discussing a major U.S. Environmental Protection Agency report on the risks of climate change, then-EPA administrator Christine Whitman argued, "As [the report] went through review, there was less consensus on the science and conclusions on climate change" (1). Some corporations whose revenues might be adversely affected by controls on carbon dioxide emissions have also alleged major uncertainties in the science (2). Such statements suggest that there might be substantive disagreement in the scientific community about the reality of anthropogenic climate change. This is not the case.

The scientific consensus is clearly expressed in the reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). Created in 1988 by the World Meteorological Organization and the United Nations Environmental Programme, IPCC's purpose is to evaluate the state of climate science as a basis for informed policy action, primarily on the basis of peer-reviewed and published scientific literature (3). In its most recent assessment, IPCC states unequivocally that the consensus of scientific opinion is that Earth's climate is being affected by human activities: "Human activities ... are modifying the concentration of atmospheric constituents ... that absorb or scatter radiant energy. ... [M]ost of the observed warming over the last 50 years is likely to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations" [p. 21 in (4)].

IPCC is not alone in its conclusions. In recent years, all major scientific bodies in the United States whose members' expertise bears directly on the matter have issued similar statements. For example, the National Academy of Sciences report, Climate Change Science: An Analysis of Some Key Questions, begins: "Greenhouse gases are accumulating in Earth's atmosphere as a result of human activities, causing surface air temperatures and subsurface ocean temperatures to rise" [p. 1 in (5)]. The report explicitly asks whether the IPCC assessment is a fair summary of professional scientific thinking, and answers yes: "The IPCC's conclusion that most of the observed warming of the last 50 years is likely to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations accurately reflects the current thinking of the scientific community on this issue" [p. 3 in (5)].

Others agree. The American Meteorological Society (6), the American Geophysical Union (7), and the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) all have issued statements in recent years concluding that the evidence for human modification of climate is compelling (8).

The drafting of such reports and statements involves many opportunities for comment, criticism, and revision, and it is not likely that they would diverge greatly from the opinions of the societies' members. Nevertheless, they might downplay legitimate dissenting opinions. That hypothesis was tested by analyzing 928 abstracts, published in refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, and listed in the ISI database with the keywords "climate change" (9).

The 928 papers were divided into six categories: explicit endorsement of the consensus position, evaluation of impacts, mitigation proposals, methods, paleoclimate analysis, and rejection of the consensus position. Of all the papers, 75% fell into the first three categories, either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change. Remarkably, none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position.

Admittedly, authors evaluating impacts, developing methods, or studying paleoclimatic change might believe that current climate change is natural. However, none of these papers argued that point.

This analysis shows that scientists publishing in the peer-reviewed literature agree with IPCC, the National Academy of Sciences, and the public statements of their professional societies. Politicians, economists, journalists, and others may have the impression of confusion, disagreement, or discord among climate scientists, but that impression is incorrect.

The scientific consensus might, of course, be wrong. If the history of science teaches anything, it is humility, and no one can be faulted for failing to act on what is not known. But our grandchildren will surely blame us if they find that we understood the reality of anthropogenic climate change and failed to do anything about it.

Many details about climate interactions are not well understood, and there are ample grounds for continued research to provide a better basis for understanding climate dynamics. The question of what to do about climate change is also still open. But there is a scientific consensus on the reality of anthropogenic climate change. Climate scientists have repeatedly tried to make this clear. It is time for the rest of us to listen.

This is a scientific study of the scientific consensus. It's not hear-say, conjecture or meaningless "I know a scientist who says..." BS, it is just the hard facts.

I also don't understand this part of the article ProfJohn posted
The federation, which encompasses many of the world's most eminent scientists and today represents more than 10,000 scientists, now focuses on 15 "planetary emergencies," among them water, soil, food, medicine and biotechnology, and climatic changes. Within climatic changes, there are eight priorities, one being "Possible human influences on climate and on atmospheric composition and chemistry (e.g. increased greenhouse gases and tropospheric ozone)."
Man-made global warming deserves study, the World Federation of Scientists believes, but so do other serious climatic concerns. So do 14 other planetary emergencies. That seems about right.

That was presented as one of the arguments against the GW consensus. Why? He is basically saying that there is no consensus because some scientists are studying things other than climate change? I don't get it.


 
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: Vic
What's the problem here, except partisan nonsense? The earth is ALWAYS either warming or cooling. Throughout its 4 billion years, it's either one or the other. I, for one, am glad that it's warming rather than cooling in my lifespan.

Oh sh!t... did I step on your agenda? <^>

:thumbsup: :laugh:

I second that.

:thumbsup: :laugh:
 
Originally posted by: XMan
There is no such thing as consensus science. If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period.

Read it all.

You can't have "consensus" in science. As Crichton says, "Consensus is invoked only in situations where the science is not solid enough. Nobody says the consensus of scientists agrees that E=mc2. Nobody says the consensus is that the sun is 93 million miles away. It would never occur to anyone to speak that way."
(Pssst. Crichton writes fiction for a living.)
 
There's a consensus about a lot of things in science actually. I think people are understating the meaning of the term.

You could say there's a 'consensus' in the scientific community about evolution. Doesn't make it 'not science'. Chrichton is a hack. He likes to sounds science-y and technical in his fiction because that's his schtick. But he pushes his nose into every aspect of the scientific community. Please don't take his word over hundreds of climatogolists, earth history scientists, etc. who actually know what they're talking about.

People claim that there's no 'consensus' about global warming. There is. It's warming. There is absolutely no support to negate that claim. The effect humans have on this warming is what is up for debate. But there is little debate that at the least, we are rubbing the proverbial salt on the wound.

When there are actual peer-reviewed articles showing strong evidence that in fact the earth is NOT warming, or that humans putting tons of crap into the atmosphere has absolutely no effect on anything regarding global warming, people might believe you. But even the world's largest backer of global-warming critics has pulled a U-Turn and is now going to the G8 conference. Please, give it up.

There is no room in the scientific world for clear-cut obstructionists. You're like the creationists and their silly museum - you serve no purpose whatsoever to anyone.
 
Originally posted by: tweaker2
there's hardly a way to make fighting global warming a a"for-huge-instant-profit" venture.
Really? Al Gore seems to be doing so with his carbon credit business. And his highly dramatized films. And his lectures.

Oops... silly me... I just shot down your argument.
 
Originally posted by: Vic
What's the problem here, except partisan nonsense? The earth is ALWAYS either warming or cooling. Throughout its 4 billion years, it's either one or the other. I, for one, am glad that it's warming rather than cooling in my lifespan.

Oh sh!t... did I step on your agenda? <^>
I think this is really the crux of the issue. The climate is always changing. People, in their shortsightedness, built a lot of waterfront property. Now that the waterline is thinking about moving a few miles inland, they're all up in arms and insist that we somehow find a way to stop nature. What they don't seem to realize is that whether or not humans are contributing isn't necessarily important - the temperature will go up at some point. That is, unless we begin policies of climate manipulation that could have even more serious effects on the global environment than our current blight of greenhouse gases. In any case, the bottom line is that your beachfront property will be at the bottom of the ocean in the not-so-distant future, regardless of how stringent we make CO2 emission restrictions.
 
Wheeee we're doing the stupid global warming dance again. Now soon someone's going to come in and start offering to sell carbon credits and think that they're really funny. Then some people are going to attack the messenger in Al Gore some more. Maybe a few links to individual climatologists who don't agree with global warming? This is so old... and so dumb... and such a waste of time. The global warming deniers have a lot in common with the creationists.
 
No kidding, wooooo it's time for the GW-rejectionists to trot out a 1992 quote from Al Gore. Holy solar-variance Batman, he's right! Global Warming IS a myth! That's right old chum, it's a damned liberal treehugging conspiracy and that quote from Al Gore proves it.
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Wheeee we're doing the stupid global warming dance again. Now soon someone's going to come in and start offering to sell carbon credits and think that they're really funny. Then some people are going to attack the messenger in Al Gore some more. Maybe a few links to individual climatologists who don't agree with global warming? This is so old... and so dumb... and such a waste of time. The global warming deniers have a lot in common with the creationists.

And then there is the other side of the coin... those who blindly reject anything not in line with their side, and label anybody who doesn't believe them as idiots.

What's your point?
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Wheeee we're doing the stupid global warming dance again. Now soon someone's going to come in and start offering to sell carbon credits and think that they're really funny. Then some people are going to attack the messenger in Al Gore some more. Maybe a few links to individual climatologists who don't agree with global warming? This is so old... and so dumb... and such a waste of time. The global warming deniers have a lot in common with the creationists.

Indeed. YASGWT. SSDD.
 
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Wheeee we're doing the stupid global warming dance again. Now soon someone's going to come in and start offering to sell carbon credits and think that they're really funny. Then some people are going to attack the messenger in Al Gore some more. Maybe a few links to individual climatologists who don't agree with global warming? This is so old... and so dumb... and such a waste of time. The global warming deniers have a lot in common with the creationists.

And then there is the other side of the coin... those who blindly reject anything not in line with their side, and label anybody who doesn't believe them as idiots.

What's your point?

Is the point this hard to figure out? I'll help you.

Your side's argument in this thread is "in the most favorable poll we could find, only 60% of people agreed global warming is caused by man". That's pathetic. All your guys' posts in other threads tend to link to debunked theories, or just involve ignorant personal opinions coupled with a collection of smiley faces or thumbs up pictures. This is not the sign of a well supported argument. This is also the sign of people who should be called idiots.
 
The reason that GWB&co. catches hell from the scientific community is mainly based on the fact that they censor taxpayer supported Science and demand that it reach unwarranted conclusions. The understanding of global warming is still changing and somewhat under new debate because new evidence has come in. But in terms of other measures such a CO2 levels, that debate is long over and its man made.

But especially with the new evidence coming in, it now looks like earlier predictions are not quite panning out with either actual results or in computer simulated climate models. But the hypothesis of lets do nothing until we perfectly understand is very risky---and boils down to what many global warming critics are arguing.

Just because Al Gore and others are overstating their case does not mean that they are 100% wrong. And its terms of % right---its hard to do worse than the GWB&co. almost 0%.
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: XMan
There is no such thing as consensus science. If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period.

Read it all.

You can't have "consensus" in science. As Crichton says, "Consensus is invoked only in situations where the science is not solid enough. Nobody says the consensus of scientists agrees that E=mc2. Nobody says the consensus is that the sun is 93 million miles away. It would never occur to anyone to speak that way."
(Pssst. Crichton writes fiction for a living.)


Pssst. Al Gore makes a living off of man made global warming.
 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Vic
What's the problem here, except partisan nonsense? The earth is ALWAYS either warming or cooling. Throughout its 4 billion years, it's either one or the other. I, for one, am glad that it's warming rather than cooling in my lifespan.

Oh sh!t... did I step on your agenda? <^>
I think this is really the crux of the issue. The climate is always changing. People, in their shortsightedness, built a lot of waterfront property. Now that the waterline is thinking about moving a few miles inland, they're all up in arms and insist that we somehow find a way to stop nature. What they don't seem to realize is that whether or not humans are contributing isn't necessarily important - the temperature will go up at some point. That is, unless we begin policies of climate manipulation that could have even more serious effects on the global environment than our current blight of greenhouse gases. In any case, the bottom line is that your beachfront property will be at the bottom of the ocean in the not-so-distant future, regardless of how stringent we make CO2 emission restrictions.

That sentence I bolded is a non sequitur, and while it's been getting the anti-global warming folks a lot of mileage, it's a silly argument. Of course there are NATURAL fluctuation in the temperature of the planet...and we don't (and shouldn't) have any control over those changes. But in addition to NATURAL changes, there are MAN-MADE changes. Possibly those man-made changes are occurring in the same direction as the natural changes (both contribute to warming), perhaps they are opposed (the natural change is cooling, but the human race is heating things up). In either case, there is the natural course our climate SHOULD be taking, and the divergent course it IS taking due to human actions.

Any other debate is missing the point. It's not about warming vs cooling or whether such processes happen naturally...it's about whether human actions are making the global climate do something different than it would naturally be doing. While natural climate change (either warming or cooling) is normal and even beneficial to life on earth, man-made interference with that process is almost certainly NOT beneficial. Anti-climate change advocates always point to evidence showing the lack of warming somewhere or that warming has naturally occurred in the past and crow about how this disproves man-made climate change. But they're missing the point entirely, "global warming" is a misnomer, as man-made interference does not always have to result in warming everywhere, nor does it mean warming can ONLY be the result of human actions. It would be helpful to the debate if people (and I'll admit, they are on both sides) do not either intentionally or unintentionally try and derail the debate.

I also feel compelled to point out that, whatever the scientific debate is here, I think there is an important debate ABOUT science as well. Science is not politics, and it's not religion...I think the misconception comes from the fact that, for whatever reason, most of the people involved in the climate change debate are folks who USUALLY arguing some political or religious point, where every idea and point of view is equally valid, and it's whoever makes the best or loudest argument that is eventually declared to be "right". But science isn't like that, it's an attempt to describe and explain the natural world. And as such, there are very much right and wrong answers. It doesn't matter if 100% of scientists believe it or none of them do, the world wasn't any flatter when the majority of the world believed it to be, and it hasn't become any more round since everyone decided THAT to be the truth. Crichton is right or wrong, it doesn't matter how smart or reasonable he sounds, or whether you think he's a scientific genius or a jackass author who's full of himself. It's already been decided, we just don't realize it yet.

Before I get too carried away with my eulogy of scientific debate, I'll skip down to the end of the page. Debates like this are stupid, and people who start them are lost in their own stupid partisan world. Conservatives like ProfJohn, for whatever reason (certainly not a scientific one), have decided that human beings are NOT causing global warming, and they attack that issue like they do gay marriage...science is just politics in another arena. So whatever stupid argument they can come up with, they throw out there...whether it's conducting a poll or making fun of Al Gore, because the objective isn't to figure out the truth of the debate (this is politics, EVERYONE already knows "The Truth"), it's to make a good argument and beat the enemy into submission. But the great thing about science is that it's already decided, so no matter how many threads ProfJohn starts on the topic, it makes not the slightest bit of difference...if we wait long enough, we'll find out who's right and who's wrong. But in the meantime, it would be nice if more people stopped treating this like just another political cat fight and started approaching the issue like scientists...studying the facts and figuring it out for yourself. And if you DON'T want to do that, I think those of us that do would appreciate it if you'd shut your pie hole.

Edit: And I know, I know, "but I don't approach the issue like that". Of course you do, that's why man-made climate change is divided almost perfectly along the left/right divide. There is no earthly reason that voting for Bush in 2004 should be an accurate predictor of how someone feels about global warming, but it most certainly is. And that goes for lefties as well...why don't all of you pick up a damn science textbook instead of falling all over yourselves to make this the new gay marriage?
 
Originally posted by: Rainsford
That sentence I bolded is a non sequitur, and while it's been getting the anti-global warming folks a lot of mileage, it's a silly argument. Of course there are NATURAL fluctuation in the temperature of the planet...and we don't (and shouldn't) have any control over those changes. But in addition to NATURAL changes, there are MAN-MADE changes. Possibly those man-made changes are occurring in the same direction as the natural changes (both contribute to warming), perhaps they are opposed (the natural change is cooling, but the human race is heating things up). In either case, there is the natural course our climate SHOULD be taking, and the divergent course it IS taking due to human actions.
It's not a non sequitur - it's simply a statement of fact. It may not be very pertinent when considering man-made global warming, but I think it's an essential point that people need to recognize at some point. Eventually, your beachfront property will go underwater. This will happen whether or not we limit CO2 emissions. The limiting of CO2 emissions will affect the dynamics of the system, to be sure, but it is not likely to affect the amplitude of the oscillating steady state much. Nature is a robust nonlinear system with considerable built-in damping factors that prevent things from getting too hot or too cold. Once the temperature goes up, the cloud cover must also go up, thereby decreasing the amount of absorbed radiation. The net effect: less absorbed energy, lower temperatures, and the cycle starts on its downswing. From the seminars I've attended, it looks like man is speeding up the upswing, though to what degree is still unclear. However, the basic principles that lead to the downturn still hold. The final analysis is that we are essentially increasing the frequency of the temperature cycles without altering the amplitude much at all.

That said, what do I think we should do about it? I think we should try as much as possible to limit our contribution to the temperature cycle. This means decreasing GLOBAL emissions of greenhouse gases, especially water and CO2. Most efforts (such as Kyoto) focus only on local regulations, but these are essentially useless and shortsighted because they totally ignore the developing world. I've been saying this for years since I did my masters work in environmental engineering, and recently published works have confirmed it unequivocally (I can give refs if you want, but I don't have my seminar notes binder at the house right now, so I'd have to get them tomorrow from the lab).
Any other debate is missing the point. It's not about warming vs cooling or whether such processes happen naturally...it's about whether human actions are making the global climate do something different than it would naturally be doing. While natural climate change (either warming or cooling) is normal and even beneficial to life on earth, man-made interference with that process is almost certainly NOT beneficial. Anti-climate change advocates always point to evidence showing the lack of warming somewhere or that warming has naturally occurred in the past and crow about how this disproves man-made climate change. But they're missing the point entirely, "global warming" is a misnomer, as man-made interference does not always have to result in warming everywhere, nor does it mean warming can ONLY be the result of human actions. It would be helpful to the debate if people (and I'll admit, they are on both sides) do not either intentionally or unintentionally try and derail the debate.
I agree 100%, and this was not at all what I was trying to do. In fact, I was implicitly agreeing with this and instead trying to frame the debate regarding what we should actually do about it rather than whether it's happening. I think this was also Vic's original point - that warming is happening whether or not we are the cause, so we need to be ready for it.
I also feel compelled to point out that, whatever the scientific debate is here, I think there is an important debate ABOUT science as well. Science is not politics, and it's not religion...I think the misconception comes from the fact that, for whatever reason, most of the people involved in the climate change debate are folks who USUALLY arguing some political or religious point, where every idea and point of view is equally valid, and it's whoever makes the best or loudest argument that is eventually declared to be "right". But science isn't like that, it's an attempt to describe and explain the natural world. And as such, there are very much right and wrong answers. It doesn't matter if 100% of scientists believe it or none of them do, the world wasn't any flatter when the majority of the world believed it to be, and it hasn't become any more round since everyone decided THAT to be the truth. Crichton is right or wrong, it doesn't matter how smart or reasonable he sounds, or whether you think he's a scientific genius or a jackass author who's full of himself. It's already been decided, we just don't realize it yet.
I think there is a lot more religion than people realize in science. 😛 If there are 10 labs working on a given problem, each of these has their own concept of what is actually going on in the process they're looking at. To each of these labs in isolation, they think they know exactly what is going on and are working independently to try to show that. They will laugh at the work of the other 9 labs because they have it all wrong. This is true in any field, whether it's open to media frenzy or not. The bottom line is that scientists do not know exactly why things behave the way they do. They spend their entire lives trying to design clever experiments to test a certain hypothesis, then the results are often inconclusive because they didn't consider some factors. The next generation rinses and repeats and science slowly plods forward. It's not a cut-and-dry process that people think it is. I've stated my views on the ridiculous politicking going on in the current 'peer review' process plenty of times before and will leave that out for now. In the end, you're certainly correct in that there is truth that science seeks, but the perception of this truth is always colored by our own biases, erroneous conclusions, bad experiments, and many other factors.

edit: fixed bad quote tag
 
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: tweaker2
there's hardly a way to make fighting global warming a a"for-huge-instant-profit" venture.
Really? Al Gore seems to be doing so with his carbon credit business. And his highly dramatized films. And his lectures.

Oops... silly me... I just shot down your argument.

sorry jrenz, i guess i should have been more explicit. my use of the word "hardly" does not mean "never".

try again.😉
 
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: XMan
There is no such thing as consensus science. If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period.

Read it all.

You can't have "consensus" in science. As Crichton says, "Consensus is invoked only in situations where the science is not solid enough. Nobody says the consensus of scientists agrees that E=mc2. Nobody says the consensus is that the sun is 93 million miles away. It would never occur to anyone to speak that way."
(Pssst. Crichton writes fiction for a living.)


Pssst. Al Gore makes a living off of man made global warming.

Many doctors make a living off disease. That mean they're really pro-disease?

More logic from the right.
 
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