Maximilian
Lifer
- Feb 8, 2004
- 12,604
- 15
- 81
That involved micro and knowing when to retreat, also you shouldnt be blindly running into the opponents base with your entire army not knowing whats there, thats an idiots tactic, scout first.
I said "few in number and easily fixable" with regards to imbalances. Can you read?
You have no clue in hell what the facts are with c&c 3.
You think online is broken due to people tank rushing
You think most of the units are useless (because you build the wrong units for the task most likely)
You think lack of strategic zoom is a problem... in a c&c game.. Did you play any other c&c game? I think not.
The first factual thing youve stated about c&c 3.
At least ive learned to quote, unlike mr click the quote button and leave it like that, creating a total mess of an arguement which i have to clean up when i reply. Take your sorry grammar nazi ass and go back to germany, waste of space.
CNC Online - is terrible right now with all the cheating, exploits, discons, etc - it's quickly going the way of Generals, yes there is a patch coming out and it's supposed to fix a lot of things, but that remains to be seen. EA is claiming to be banning people for cheating but most of the top 100 players are cheaters, so meh.
As for build order - both games require you to have your build order down pat and in fact, SupCom players are more likely to be insanely anal about doing calculations and so forth, just look at the forums. Also, if you screw up your BO in SupCom you pretty much lost and it's extremely hard to recover from, CNC is a little more forgiving in that regard.
As for build order - both games require you to have your build order down pat and in fact, SupCom players are more likely to be insanely anal about doing calculations and so forth, just look at the forums. Also, if you screw up your BO in SupCom you pretty much lost and it's extremely hard to recover from, CNC is a little more forgiving in that regard.
Ive run into about 300 different strategies in supcom so far. All of which have strengths and weaknesses.
I have covered from a resource and military deficit to win games before.
(im not even arguing about C&C here, just saying that some of that info is false)
Nothing I said was false, it's far easier to screw yourself in SupCom and much harder to recover from. I wasn't saying that there is only one BO, just countering the claim made by others that BO doesn't matter as much in SupCom - in fact it matters more.
So I've been watching from afar here. I hated the last C&C so I didn't bother getting into the new one. With no educated opinion to offer I've just silently watched this unfold. Until now. What kind of nutbag logic is this??
"take your grammar nazi ass and go back to germany" isn't. Clean it up some guys. :roll:
You both agree this is true (again I wouldn't know unless you've agreed) but isn't a bit ridiculous? Is that like saying "other than cancer the patient is fine?".
"grammar nazi" is funny.
"take your grammar nazi ass and go back to germany" isn't. Clean it up some guys. :roll:
Hey hey, let's not insult Germany just for the heck of it. Taking 4 History courses gives you a better perspective on things.
Obviously scouting is important in both games, but in CnC you're quite likely going to find tanks on the other side. Except in exceptional cases, nothing much would change, in my experience. We're still all going to build tanks.
And Soviet, let me propose another analogy. If all the Quake games up to Quake 4 had remained with keyboard aiming controls, would you defend it? People will have been used to aiming with just keyboards, of course. Nevertheless, if Unreal Tournament had mouse aiming, would you consider it blasphemous to criticize Quake based on its controls?
See, it's not about me criticizing the game. You think it's wrong to criticize it at all. I state why I don't like it and you attack me by calling me a noob or whatever. SupCom had its issues, but they are currently resolved for the most part (I'm still playing to see how the balance tweaks work out). CnC3 has not yet had that redeeming patch. It may be easily fixable for all my programming illiteracy, but it's not fixed.
And Smilin, I'm not agreeing that it is true. Soviet is steadfastly refusing the tank imbalance as an issue at all, so I find there to be little else to say.
To ayabe: I agree the start-up of SupCom is difficult to learn. There's nothing that can be done except knowing how to balance your resources as to not run into deficits. It definitely takes time to understand. There's a new "no-rush" mode with the patch though, so that may give new players a chance to play around with BO's without fear of getting rushed by a forward base with artillery or something.
After the initial build-up phase of 3-10 minutes (depending on the map size, smaller ones generally make up the ranked games, so ranked games are usually quick), however, the strategies start to vastly differ, and the fun really begins, in my opinion.
And yes, I'm sorry I didn't quote anything this time. If you wish to treat me with disdain for this terrible transgression, go ahead.
Obviously scouting is important in both games, but in CnC you're quite likely going to find tanks on the other side. Except in exceptional cases, nothing much would change, in my experience. We're still all going to build tanks.
And Soviet, let me propose another analogy. If all the Quake games up to Quake 4 had remained with keyboard aiming controls, would you defend it? People will have been used to aiming with just keyboards, of course. Nevertheless, if Unreal Tournament had mouse aiming, would you consider it blasphemous to criticize Quake based on its controls?
See, it's not about me criticizing the game. You think it's wrong to criticize it at all. I state why I don't like it and you attack me by calling me a noob or whatever. SupCom had its issues, but they are currently resolved for the most part (I'm still playing to see how the balance tweaks work out). CnC3 has not yet had that redeeming patch. It may be easily fixable for all my programming illiteracy, but it's not fixed.
And Smilin, I'm not agreeing that it is true. Soviet is steadfastly refusing the tank imbalance as an issue at all, so I find there to be little else to say.
To ayabe: I agree the start-up of SupCom is difficult to learn. There's nothing that can be done except knowing how to balance your resources as to not run into deficits. It definitely takes time to understand. There's a new "no-rush" mode with the patch though, so that may give new players a chance to play around with BO's without fear of getting rushed by a forward base with artillery or something.
After the initial build-up phase of 3-10 minutes (depending on the map size, smaller ones generally make up the ranked games, so ranked games are usually quick), however, the strategies start to vastly differ, and the fun really begins, in my opinion.And yes, I'm sorry I didn't quote anything this time. If you wish to treat me with disdain for this terrible transgression, go ahead.
Bump for the proposed topic. There's still the new patch that greatly increases performance that people may not know about. Do we have a SupCom community here on AT? Just maaaybe? Perhaps after you try out the new patch after having stashed away SupCom for its performance problems?
Maximilian
Lifer
- Feb 8, 2004
- 12,604
- 15
- 81
Im insulting you not germany, in fact it was a german who i learned a good chunk of my c&c 3 strategies from, theres a lot of them on c&c 3.
c&c 3 IS all about tanks, it IS a tank driven game.
Thats just daft thats a control scheme your comparing it to.. im talking about a feature that would have no use at all in c&c 3 gameplay, in a long drawn out battle, or a short 1v1, strategic zoom wouldnt be useful at all.
Where did i say "noob"? i said you suck at it and thats why you dont like it. Simple as, its a fair enough reason not to like something. You simply criticized c&c 3 with outright wrong statements which ive gone over to no avail, so im not gonna repeat myself again.
Its a minor issue, in fact just a little question for you. HOW are tanks imbalanced? I know this already and i suppose its nothing google couldnt tell you, but we shall see anyway. How exactly are tanks imbalanced?
Wow, nice timing. And I had thought you'd have been gone by now.
Take a good look at what you said. Taking my "grammer nazi ass back to Germany"? Because of your malicious intent to insult me, it qualifies the quote as not being offensive to Germany?
I find it hard to believe that there would be *zero* uses for strategic zoom in CnC, especially since a few others and I have pointed out situations in which it might help. Why does CnC have a zooming feature in the first place? I'm sure you play at nothing but the most zoomed out setting. If suddenly you were locked in to the most zoomed-in setting in CnC, you'd find yourself complaining as well. We want to see more of the battlefield and strategic zoom has proven its worth against the likes of the minimap.
I'd like to think I'm average at CnC. My statements are not outright wrong. They are opinions based off of as many facts and experiences that I have been able to muster. What do you want me to say? "Let us praise the bountiful uses of tanks and their omnipotent abilities, for all who shun its use may suffer the label of 'suck'".
Strategy games should not have a single, dominant tactic. It removes the imagination and intelligence from the game. I *know* you can use certain other units in certain situations. I *know* there are air units which show their face from time to time. Overpowered tanks stymie the development of different styles of play and it is not good for the longevity of the game.
Again, I want to reinforce the release of the new patch. Performance has increased. Try SupCom again without the worries of performance issues. If it ends up like TA, so be it, but definitely give it a chance now.
Take a good look at what you said. Taking my "grammer nazi ass back to Germany"? Because of your malicious intent to insult me, it qualifies the quote as not being offensive to Germany?
I find it hard to believe that there would be *zero* uses for strategic zoom in CnC, especially since a few others and I have pointed out situations in which it might help. Why does CnC have a zooming feature in the first place? I'm sure you play at nothing but the most zoomed out setting. If suddenly you were locked in to the most zoomed-in setting in CnC, you'd find yourself complaining as well. We want to see more of the battlefield and strategic zoom has proven its worth against the likes of the minimap.
I'd like to think I'm average at CnC. My statements are not outright wrong. They are opinions based off of as many facts and experiences that I have been able to muster. What do you want me to say? "Let us praise the bountiful uses of tanks and their omnipotent abilities, for all who shun its use may suffer the label of 'suck'".
Strategy games should not have a single, dominant tactic. It removes the imagination and intelligence from the game. I *know* you can use certain other units in certain situations. I *know* there are air units which show their face from time to time. Overpowered tanks stymie the development of different styles of play and it is not good for the longevity of the game.
Again, I want to reinforce the release of the new patch. Performance has increased. Try SupCom again without the worries of performance issues. If it ends up like TA, so be it, but definitely give it a chance now.
Maximilian
Lifer
- Feb 8, 2004
- 12,604
- 15
- 81
You wish
Germany had nazis in it, its a fact, most germans accept theres a connection between the word nazi and the country germany, miss out on wwII history classes did we? Go cry about it if you cant deal with facts.
This is not a c&c oriented forum, theres more posts about oblivion and rpg games than c&c 3 and starcraft 2 put together. The thing is, the most zoomed in setting is unusable for actual gaming, its there to zoom in and look at the pretty mammoth mark III etc. I still say strategic zoom wouldnt be useful at all in c&c 3
Works for me lol.
Which overpowered tanks? You didnt answer my question from before, youve got no idea which tanks are overpowered. Some are perfectly fine.
Another argument has just sprung to mind... THE SCRIN!! They dont even use tanks and they have the best late game vehicle, especially coupled with corrupters. Theyre all air power say some, but as i said their late game vehicle is the best of the 3 sides.
Raduque
Lifer
- Aug 22, 2004
- 13,140
- 138
- 106
Why did you even come into this thread? It's about SupCom not CnC3. Go start your own wank thread.
Ichigo, you have great arguments. It's too bad Soviet simply dismisses them out of hand because his "precious" doesn't have those features. How much do you want to bet if CnC3 had strategic zoom and SupCom didn't, that he'd call it the future of RTS? :disgust:
For the record, I like both games, but I enjoy CnC3 a heck of a lot more. I've a long and storied history with the Command and Conquer series, from the original way back in the day (and I've still got an original GDI CD... I've long since lost my NOD CD) to the disappointment of Generals, and now Tiberium Wars.
However, I do believe that while SupCom is the "serious" RTS, CnC3 has supertanker loads more style.
I do find it hilarious that most people like C&C for nostalgia and not innovative improvements to gameplay.
/flamesuit
The patch increased my average fps by about 6 at max settings 1680x1050 with an 8800GTS and Core 2 Duo @ 3.15ghz
/flamesuit
The patch increased my average fps by about 6 at max settings 1680x1050 with an 8800GTS and Core 2 Duo @ 3.15ghz
Maximilian
Lifer
- Feb 8, 2004
- 12,604
- 15
- 81
Starbuck1975
Lifer
- Jan 6, 2005
- 14,698
- 1,909
- 126
I just completed the UEF campaign, and overall, I found SC to be a huge disappointment.
The storyline is a fairly standard "galactic conquest" setup...three races...one human/Terrain, one cybernetic, and one spiritual.
The end of the UEF campaign was fairly anti-climatic...push the super weapon button, THE END...not much of a payoff at all.
A few more gripes about the game:
1. The three factions are carbon copies of one another. Sure, the equivalent units for each faction have some minor differences, but not enough to truly change the tactics.
2. The same tactics work under all conditions. It is very easy to establish a turtle base, sit back, and watch wave after wave of enemy units impale themselves...just build enough AA batteries, shields and turrets, with walls of obstacles to slow down approaching enemies, and you can pretty much focus on building an assault force.
3. Which leads me to the offensive. Every mission, the same tactic works...build infrastructure to support building of defenses to protect construction buildings to build assault force. I always build a monster balanced assault force, put them in formation, and CTRL click the center of the enemy base...the assault force crawls forward, and just decimates the enemy base in a matter of seconds.
I will give SC this...the strategic zoom feature is a nice addition to the RTS genre...the scope of the game is amazing...the story and gameplay, not so much.
The storyline is a fairly standard "galactic conquest" setup...three races...one human/Terrain, one cybernetic, and one spiritual.
The end of the UEF campaign was fairly anti-climatic...push the super weapon button, THE END...not much of a payoff at all.
A few more gripes about the game:
1. The three factions are carbon copies of one another. Sure, the equivalent units for each faction have some minor differences, but not enough to truly change the tactics.
2. The same tactics work under all conditions. It is very easy to establish a turtle base, sit back, and watch wave after wave of enemy units impale themselves...just build enough AA batteries, shields and turrets, with walls of obstacles to slow down approaching enemies, and you can pretty much focus on building an assault force.
3. Which leads me to the offensive. Every mission, the same tactic works...build infrastructure to support building of defenses to protect construction buildings to build assault force. I always build a monster balanced assault force, put them in formation, and CTRL click the center of the enemy base...the assault force crawls forward, and just decimates the enemy base in a matter of seconds.
I will give SC this...the strategic zoom feature is a nice addition to the RTS genre...the scope of the game is amazing...the story and gameplay, not so much.
@Starbuck1975: Single-player gameplay differs vastly to the mulitplayer, the same as all games, in general. Perhaps play some skirmishes before heading online? I believe I've responded to all three of your gripes in previous posts, but I don't know if you'd care to search through the warzone above. Hah.
"I guess on the surface it could be possible to see each faction's units as carbon copies, but they're not. Their armour is different(some have shields, others just straight up armour), different movement abilities/speed(a cetain Cybran water unit can crawl onto the land, while the other factions' equivalents can't), ballistic [weapons] properties(it is a completely simulated physics system, not just random dice rolls, so whether the damage is AoE, laser-based, etc. makes a huge difference), the kind of stuff you discover after a few battles."
Online, turtling tactics are not nearly as effective as in the campaign, and that goes for other games like Starcraft as well. Multiplayer gameplay is very quick, at least for ranked games. Different strategies comes with experience, since I myself was turned off at the scope of the game at first. SupCom is really a game you need to know to love. It's difficult to pick it up quickly.
@Soviet: I don't understand how you're trying to justify the German comment. The Nazi regime is in Germany's history, yes, but that is in the past. It doesn't seem at all unfair to you to place that generalization on today's Germany? There's more to Germany than the Nazi's, which you may know had you taken history beyond merely WWII. Know a guy named Bismark?
I'm not sure what Oblivion has to do with strategic zoom... In any case, CnC's most zoomed out view seems confining to some SupCom players, and they are dismayed by the lack of it. They've (and me) used it and loved it. You may not. I don't think you can really speak for everyone when you disregard its significance and usability, even in a skirmish-based game like CnC.
All tanks seem to have more bang for the buck (I sound like I'm in the Video forum, haha) than other units. Maybe not the Stealth Tank, at times. I'm talking mostly about Predators, Scorpions, and Mammoth's if the game gets that far. Though matches usually don't have a very long lategame, which kind of discounts the Scrin's advantages.
@Acanthus: What kind of fps are you getting in mid to lategame in SupCom? I've been thinking of getting an 8800GTS 640MB since I play at 1920x1200. I currently am using an X800XL and pre-patch I had to play on low. Post-patch I've been able to bump textures and fidelity to medium without much problems (I might drop into the 20's I guess, but I did pre-patch as well, and I find anything +20 playable). I just want an idea of what I might expect with an 8800GTS.
@Raduque: I've never disagreed with that point. CnC has a far better presentation by all accounts, from the menus to the awesome HD cutscenes. I really can't complain much about the single-player part of the game. It's good for what it is.
"I guess on the surface it could be possible to see each faction's units as carbon copies, but they're not. Their armour is different(some have shields, others just straight up armour), different movement abilities/speed(a cetain Cybran water unit can crawl onto the land, while the other factions' equivalents can't), ballistic [weapons] properties(it is a completely simulated physics system, not just random dice rolls, so whether the damage is AoE, laser-based, etc. makes a huge difference), the kind of stuff you discover after a few battles."
Online, turtling tactics are not nearly as effective as in the campaign, and that goes for other games like Starcraft as well. Multiplayer gameplay is very quick, at least for ranked games. Different strategies comes with experience, since I myself was turned off at the scope of the game at first. SupCom is really a game you need to know to love. It's difficult to pick it up quickly.
@Soviet: I don't understand how you're trying to justify the German comment. The Nazi regime is in Germany's history, yes, but that is in the past. It doesn't seem at all unfair to you to place that generalization on today's Germany? There's more to Germany than the Nazi's, which you may know had you taken history beyond merely WWII. Know a guy named Bismark?
I'm not sure what Oblivion has to do with strategic zoom... In any case, CnC's most zoomed out view seems confining to some SupCom players, and they are dismayed by the lack of it. They've (and me) used it and loved it. You may not. I don't think you can really speak for everyone when you disregard its significance and usability, even in a skirmish-based game like CnC.
All tanks seem to have more bang for the buck (I sound like I'm in the Video forum, haha) than other units. Maybe not the Stealth Tank, at times. I'm talking mostly about Predators, Scorpions, and Mammoth's if the game gets that far. Though matches usually don't have a very long lategame, which kind of discounts the Scrin's advantages.
@Acanthus: What kind of fps are you getting in mid to lategame in SupCom? I've been thinking of getting an 8800GTS 640MB since I play at 1920x1200. I currently am using an X800XL and pre-patch I had to play on low. Post-patch I've been able to bump textures and fidelity to medium without much problems (I might drop into the 20's I guess, but I did pre-patch as well, and I find anything +20 playable). I just want an idea of what I might expect with an 8800GTS.
@Raduque: I've never disagreed with that point. CnC has a far better presentation by all accounts, from the menus to the awesome HD cutscenes. I really can't complain much about the single-player part of the game. It's good for what it is.
LintMan
Senior member
- Apr 19, 2001
- 474
- 0
- 71
I found SupCom to be awesome in some ways, and yet terribly devoid of personality. I love the point-and-zoom feature; it's addictive: I found myself trying to use it while web browsing, etc. Unfortunately, the large scale encourages you to play the game fairly zoomed out to the point where the already bland units are almost indistinguishable.
The reduced micromanagement gameplay style of TA and SupCom is my favorite RTS style, but I'm a single-player-only guy and the campaigns are the main things I buy RTS's for. And unfortunately SupCom's campaigns are rather blah. With the big new patch out now, I wish I had some reason to fire the game up again, but I don't really see one yet.
Maximilian
Lifer
- Feb 8, 2004
- 12,604
- 15
- 81
Ill re-iterate again.... It was fine in sup com, it would be useless in c&c3
Well what the hell do you want? I bet if they strapped legs onto the tanks and called them mechs you wouldnt complain.
Tanks in every c&c game have always had the best bang for buck, theyve always been dominant, its what i wanted, its what the majority of other c&c fans wanted and its what we got, a tank dominated game. There is absolutely no problem in giving the fans what they want.
Starbuck1975
Lifer
- Jan 6, 2005
- 14,698
- 1,909
- 126
Actually I found SC rather easy to pick up...the base and resource management and tech tree of the game doesn't prove all that challenging...need more energy, build more generators...don't have access to enough mass, build fabricators...and link everything in a network to maximize efficiency, surround it all with shields, and put up lots of defenses.
The Total War series and Rise of Nations are the only RTS games I can think of that truly have a steep learning curve.
@Starbuck1975: And what I'm saying is that teching is much more difficult online or against one of the fan-created AI's. You can't be at a point where the game tells you that you need more mass or energy because that slows you down significantly. Linking absolutely everything to power generators means that when one building goes down, the entire link goes down. So it may not always be the best plan. Turtling up has its uses, but it becomes easy to crack if you turtle predictably, especially if they know how to use artillery bases.
@Soviet: I would not find strategic zoom useless in CnC. This has been agreed upon by other people in this thread. So you do not get to discredit our opinions and pretend that yours overrules all others. If mechs were overpowered... they'd still be overpowered. What's your point here? Since when do you speak for the majority of CnC players? For what reasons would the majority of them not want a balanced game?
@Soviet: I would not find strategic zoom useless in CnC. This has been agreed upon by other people in this thread. So you do not get to discredit our opinions and pretend that yours overrules all others. If mechs were overpowered... they'd still be overpowered. What's your point here? Since when do you speak for the majority of CnC players? For what reasons would the majority of them not want a balanced game?
Maximilian
Lifer
- Feb 8, 2004
- 12,604
- 15
- 81
You wouldnt find it useless and the rest of the sup com players wouldnt, the rest of the c&c 3 players would because there is no need for it. Tanks are not over powered for the 3rd or 4th time, the game is meant to be that way. In fact earlier today i won a game with tanks and infantry, which would have been lost with just tanks.
What... if we played both? Doesn't that make our opinions supported by a broader base by a CnC player who has never bothered to try out strategic zoom? And judging by the amount of complaints about tanks in CnC, the game *shouldn't* be that way. Of course, anyone who posts a disagreement with you "sucks", according to you.
Maximilian
Lifer
- Feb 8, 2004
- 12,604
- 15
- 81
Its the silent majority that counts, the people whining on EA's forum are a tiny minority, have you even read half of their posts?! It would be tiberian sun 2 if they got their way. Most people are fine with the way c&c 3 is, all it needs is this coming balance patch and itll be sorted.
Besides your pathetic inability to read shows again, i already told you about twice already, i have played both. Ill make it easier for you I have played both
So you're part of that noble silent majority? I do not go on EA forums therefore I do not see the posts there. Yet it seems to me the "vocal minority" (which I'm having difficulty believing is a minority) are not the only ones with the kind of posts to which you are referring. By the way, the silent do not have their voices heard and will not have their opinion honoured. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this whole "silent" business.
You seem to selectively ignore many of my previous posts in your responses. I've acknowledged the next CnC patch, but I've also noted that it is *not* here yet.
I mean you don't seem to have used it much more than a few minutes, given by your attitude towards it. You are so far the only one to say that strategic zoom would have irrelevance in CnC. Everyone else who gave their opinion in their topic disagreed with you. Are you going to call us SupCom fanatics again and insinuate that we like the feature merely because it is in SupCom and ignore its usability?
You seem to selectively ignore many of my previous posts in your responses. I've acknowledged the next CnC patch, but I've also noted that it is *not* here yet.
I mean you don't seem to have used it much more than a few minutes, given by your attitude towards it. You are so far the only one to say that strategic zoom would have irrelevance in CnC. Everyone else who gave their opinion in their topic disagreed with you. Are you going to call us SupCom fanatics again and insinuate that we like the feature merely because it is in SupCom and ignore its usability?
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