So maybe the Sub-prime mortgage crisis isn?t that big of a deal after all

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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So maybe all the doom and gloom about the sub-prime mortgage crisis doesn?t reflect reality and is just another example of bad news getting ratings and selling news papers.

Of all the mortgages in the country only 14% are sub-prime and of those only 13% are late on payments.

Also there are 254,000 mortgages in foreclosure right now, this compares to 219,000 at this point last year.
Read the article and draw your own conclusions.
Link with nice chart
Ben Stein said it well this past Saturday on Fox?s Cavuto on Business: The sub-prime mortgage problem is grossly overstated; the sector is just too small.

Smart guy, Ben. Ferris Bueller never should have skipped school that day ? he would have learned economics from a master. (Stein, for those who might have missed it, played Bueller?s (Matthew Broderick?s) high-school teacher in the pop hit, Ferris Bueller?s Day Off.)

But let?s switch movie metaphors for a moment. In Rain Man, autistic savant Raymond Babbitt (Dustin Hoffman) is asked two economics questions by Charlie, his money-loving younger brother (Tom Cruise).

Charlie: Raymond, how much does a candy bar cost?

Raymond: About a hundred dollars.

Charlie: Raymond, how much does an automobile cost?

Raymond: About a hundred dollars.

The questions are designed to reveal a systematic flaw in the way Raymond looks at the world. For all his skill at counting the minutia in life (like toothpicks), he just doesn?t understand the issue of scale. He doesn?t have an inherent sense of how big things are.

I?ve thought a lot about Rain Man over the past few months as I?ve been following the press coverage of the sub-prime mortgage crisis. The story?s been on the front page of the Wall Street Journal nearly every day. Pretty much every show on CNBC ? except Kudlow & Co. and one or two others ? has been obsessed with the topic. Yet no one seems to be asking the Rain Man question: ?How big is the sub-prime mortgage market??

And the answer, as Ben Stein makes clear, is not very big at all.

Currently there are about 44 million mortgages in the U.S., and less than 14 percent of them are sub-prime. And only about 13 percent of those are late on payments, with the majority of late payers working through their problems with the banks.

So, all in all, when you work through the details and get down to the number that really matters, only about 0.6 percent of U.S. mortgages are currently in foreclosure. That?s up a hair from roughly 0.5 percent last year. That?s it.

Actually, that?s not it. Things are actually better than the numbers suggest, since sub-prime-mortgage homes are less expensive than prime-mortgage homes. This makes sense. Wealthier people, generally, can afford costlier homes than less-wealthy people. The recent sub-prime surge brought large numbers of moderate-income families into the home-ownership market, and their houses are less expensive than most. Therefore, the dollar impact of the sub-prime default is smaller than if it were a prime default.

With approximately 254,000 mortgages in foreclosure at the moment ? up from roughly 219,000 last year ? the sub-prime meltdown has given us an increase of 35,000 mortgage foreclosures over the last quarter. Since the average sub-prime mortgage clocks in at almost exactly $200,000, we?re looking at an approximate $7 billion increase in foreclosed value in the first quarter of this year.

Raymond, how big is household net worth in the U.S.? About a hundred dollars?

Actually, it?s a lot bigger than that ? about $53 trillion. In other words, the recent increase in sub-prime foreclosures amounts to 0.01 percent of net U.S. household wealth.

That?s toothpicks, Raymond.
An article with both Rainman and Ferris Bueller references? how cool is that?
 
Jun 27, 2005
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The market ran up in large part due to SP lenders handing money out like candy. 100% stated income loans to 520 FICO scores? Come on. A lot of those foreclosures are held by SP lenders. So they have moved to protect themselves... And most of this has happened in the last 30 days.

Here's what happens. SP lends to pretty much anyone creating a huge pool of buyers. Prices go up. Way up. Prices level off. Investors get caught and default. SP makes a tweak here and a tweak there to protect themselves moving forward. The tweaks slightly shrink the buyer pool.

Fewer buyers, fewer sales. Prices slip. More defaults. SP closes more programs. Buyer pool shrinks even further. Prices slip farther. More defaults... Dangerous levels of defaults... SP banks start to reel. One goes bankrupt.

Then last week the shit hit the fan and e-mails were sent out telling LOs to "lock now or lose the deal". Deals that were in the pipeline were cahnged or repriced on the fly by the lenders. SP is as we knew it for the last 6-7 years is gone, litterally overnight. No more funny money.

Fast forward to today...

The pool of buyers is gone. No more buyers that qualify for homes at the inflated prices of the last 6-7 years.

Prices have to fall. And they will. Most people who bought in the last three years or so (depending on where they are) will find themselves upside down in their mortgage. This isn't a problem if they plan to stay in the home for the long haul, but for those who need to sell... (see next paragraph) Who can cough up $100k to get out from under their mortgage? THIS is the danger. Beause this affects more than just SP people. If your house drops 20% the year after you buy it, it doesn't matter what kind of loan you got. You're stuck.

Which brings us to the interest only and ARMS and negative am product that is ratcheting up as we speak... "I want the cheapest loan I can get cause I'm only holding on to this sucker for the minimum term to avoid cap gains then I'm selling it and making a mint"

Well... When those start to go (and they are) look for the wave. When there are a ton of cheap bank foreclosures for sale on the market, they pull everyone else's value down with them.

It isn't the number of homes currently in foreclosure that is worrisome... it's the homes that are going to be in foreclosure in the next 1-3 years. I don't care what Ben says. We're in for some tough sledding over here.







 

kedlav

Senior member
Aug 2, 2006
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While it is overstated, there are a number of things going on worth mentioning:
-It is having an effect on the market
-It probably isn't over yet
-It shows why big business should be trusted just as much as politicians
-It sure does suck if you were suckered into one of these loans
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,216
1
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Originally posted by: kedlav
While it is overstated, there are a number of things going on worth mentioning:
-It is having an effect on the market
-It probably isn't over yet
-It shows why big business should be trusted just as much as politicians
-It sure does suck if you were suckered into one of these loans

1. Yes. A big effect and about to get bigger
2. It's only just begun.
3. Kinda.
4. I really hate that attitude. Very few people were suckered. People were entering into business deals and thinking with their hearts instead of their heads. The banks were saying no but these other guys could get us in. "Please please please... we really want this house!"

Probably better to blame it on the "I want it now and I don't care about tomorrow" mentality of the US consumer in general.
 

imported_Tick

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
4,682
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Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: kedlav
While it is overstated, there are a number of things going on worth mentioning:
-It is having an effect on the market
-It probably isn't over yet
-It shows why big business should be trusted just as much as politicians
-It sure does suck if you were suckered into one of these loans

1. Yes. A big effect and about to get bigger
2. It's only just begun.
3. Kinda.
4. I really hate that attitude. Very few people were suckered. People were entering into business deals and thinking with their hearts instead of their heads. The banks were saying no but these other guys could get us in. "Please please please... we really want this house!"

Probably better to blame it on the "I want it now and I don't care about tomorrow" mentality of all consumers in general.

Fixxed.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
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0
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: kedlav
While it is overstated, there are a number of things going on worth mentioning:
-It is having an effect on the market
-It probably isn't over yet
-It shows why big business should be trusted just as much as politicians
-It sure does suck if you were suckered into one of these loans

1. Yes. A big effect and about to get bigger
2. It's only just begun.
3. Kinda.
4. I really hate that attitude. Very few people were suckered. People were entering into business deals and thinking with their hearts instead of their heads. The banks were saying no but these other guys could get us in. "Please please please... we really want this house!"

Probably better to blame it on the "I want it now and I don't care about tomorrow" mentality of the US consumer in general.

The sign of good con is when you have the mark begging to get conned.
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
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When pundits on tv says that subprime is "contained", I think they are saying that the direct economic effects of decreased consumption on the part of the unfortunate people being foreclosed on will be contained (i.e. it will be a drag on GDP, but not pull the whole economy into recession). Consumption of "rich" people, for whom the economy and stock market is still booming, more than offsets decreased consumption of those being foreclosed upon, thus subprime is "contained".

The panic you are seeing on Wall Street is because so many hedge funds, banks, brokers, insurance companies, etc. all around the world used cheap borrowed money and lots of leverage and bought up these crappy packaged mortgages. Because of the leverage employed, losses around the world could be huge (Cramer thinks $500 billion - and I don't know if he just meant within the U. S.), and because institutions aren't telling people what their true exposure is, there is this liquidity crunch everybody is talking about on tv.

BNP Paribas has suspended redemptions on it's three hedge funds overnight because it said it couldn't price these securities in the U. S. since Monday and the ECB apparently just started injecting a lot of liquidity into the banking system there.

Whether or not this "subprime crisis" will be contained or not, I think is too early to tell.






ECB Lends Unlimited Cash at 4% as Money Rates Surge (Update2)
By Christian Vits and Gabi Thesing


Headquarters of the ECB
Aug. 9 (Bloomberg) -- The European Central Bank said it will provide unlimited funds today at 4 percent after demand for cash in the European money markets drove interest rates higher.

A reluctance to lend money after concern over U.S. subprime mortgage losses roiled credit markets pushed overnight euro rates to as high as 4.7 percent today, compared with the ECB's benchmark refinancing rate of 4 percent. The rate for borrowing dollars overnight jumped to 5.86 percent from 5.35 percent yesterday.

Borrowing rates are rising on concern banks face growing losses on investments linked to U.S. mortgages. BNP Paribas, France's biggest bank, today halted withdrawals from three investment funds, saying a lack of liquidity meant it couldn't ``fairly'' value the holdings.

``No one really knows how big the current credit problems are,'' said Charles Diebel, head of European rate strategy at Nomura International Plc in London in a note e-mailed after the ECB announced its liquidity-providing operation. ``This is undermining confidence in the system as a whole and hence the reaction this morning.''

In a statement today, the ECB said it was providing emergency funds ``to assure orderly conditions in the euro money market'' and that it ``intends to allot 100 percent of the bids it receives.''

BNP joined Bear Stearns Cos. and Union Investment Management GmbH in stopping fund redemptions. Dutch investment bank NIBC Holding NV said today that it lost at least 137 million euros ($188) on U.S. subprime investments this year.

``Every bank is being suspected now, so no one is willing to lend money to anyone,'' said Ina Steinke, a money-market trader at NordLB in Hannover.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
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www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
So maybe all the doom and gloom about the sub-prime mortgage crisis doesn?t reflect reality and is just another example of bad news getting ratings and selling news papers.

Of all the mortgages in the country only 14% are sub-prime and of those only 13% are late on payments.

Also there are 254,000 mortgages in foreclosure right now, this compares to 219,000 at this point last year.

Read the article and draw your own conclusions.

The only conclusion here is you are a sad man.

If you loved your country you would expect a whole lot better for it.
 

imported_Shivetya

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2005
2,978
1
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
So maybe all the doom and gloom about the sub-prime mortgage crisis doesn?t reflect reality and is just another example of bad news getting ratings and selling news papers.

Of all the mortgages in the country only 14% are sub-prime and of those only 13% are late on payments.

Also there are 254,000 mortgages in foreclosure right now, this compares to 219,000 at this point last year.

Read the article and draw your own conclusions.

The only conclusion here is you are a sad man.

If you loved your country you would expect a whole lot better for it.


One conclusion is that there are people who got a mortgage that should not have one.

Another is that 87% of the people with sub prime mortgages have houses that otherwise would not have one. I guess that isn't a good thing in your book?


Look, the press is over exaggerating this like everything else. They need to sell papers, experts need to have invites so they can make money and sell books, so they take a small problem and make it seem as if the end of the world is at hand.

Just like we SUDDENLY have a crumbling infrastructure, when in fact our highway system is one of the best in the world. If states would quit burning tax money of wasteful earmarks (yes, happens at local level too) they wouldn't have to go begging for more money. (actually they don't beg, they hold a gun to your head and take it)
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
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The Fed just injected $12 billion in temporary reserves into the U. S. Banking system.




Yen Carry Trade and Unwinding Derivatives?: http://www.usagold.com/derivativeschapman.html

The Derivatives Mess

by Robert Chapman

"Editor's Note: We continue to get questions about derivatives. This has to be one of the least understood areas of the investment markets today. I recently came across a highly entertaining and instructive article in the Financial Times by John Train of Montrose Advisers in New York City. In it, he summarizes the problem for Long Term Capital Management's John Merriwether as follows: "It was not that his team (which included two Nobel Prize winners) necessarily was wrong in its calculations. It is just that, in the rapture of having made huge amounts of money themselves in recent years, they assumed they could do no wrong and exposed themselves to an unforeseen event which promptly occurred. I do not have precise religious ideas, but I do observe that God is like that. He observes our proud manoeuvres here below and says to himself (or herself, or itself): 'Oh, he thinks that does he? He says that does he?' Zap! Hubris really does lead to nemesis."

He goes on to say that today's derivatives are simply another form of margin, the nemesis which caused the last great market crash. This time though it's "different enough from the last time so no one realizes what is happening." He uses this analogy: "...it is like the floor show in a seedy nightclub. A sequence of girls trots on the scene, first a collection of Apaches, then some ballerinas, then cowgirls and so forth. Only after a while does the bemused spectator realize that, in all cases, they were the same girls in slightly different costumes." In other words he concludes, "the so-called hedge fund actually was an excuse for a margin account." With that more or less philosophical background courtesy of Mr. Train, we introduce Mr. Chapman and his all encompassing rendition of this vast morality play titled simply and appropriately: The Derivatives Mess. He deftly paints the backdrop, candidly introduces the players, intricately weaves the plot dynamics and inevitably leads us to some formidable conclusions.

Sidenote: We do not necessarily agree with Mr. Chapman's strong views. We simply present them for your review. Please direct your comments for further discussion to the USAGOLD FORUM.

Even though there was considerably less volume during the second half of the year, due to the Asian financial crisis, the OTC market had outstanding derivatives contracts with a national value of $29 trillion, up 14.1% from 1996. Turnover in exchange derivatives grew 11% according to the BIS. The survey covers currency swaps and interest rate swaps and options, but does not include credit and equity derivatives. The drop in second half volumes was attributed to a drop in interest rate swaps in EU currencies in the emerging markets. The Chicago Mercantile Exchange is seeking regulatory approval to trade futures and options contracts offering investors a means to hedge their holdings in U.S. real estate. There are some who say that there are $140 trillion in face value of derivatives outstanding in the world today and we agree. As you can see, world markets are a giant casino. The BIS says there are $82.6 trillion worth. That is still twice the world's GDP, and five to six times the world's annual productive product. Those are 1996 figures, so if usage grew 15% in 1997 that figure would be $95 trillion...that they'll admit to.

One-third of the 1996 figures or $27.7 trillion is held by 20 U.S. institutions. That is compared to $12.1 trillion held by nine Japanese institutions, $10.5 trillion at eight French banks, $9.2 trillion at eight English institutions, $7.5 trillion at three Swiss banks and $6.6 trillion at seven German banks. The Japanese government, in closing the Long-Term Credit Bank, is attempting to salvage $350 billion in derivatives. If there is a chain reaction derivative collapse, the U.S. may get hit first and hardest with some 30% of the total or $40 trillion. Even the FDIC says U.S. commercial banks have $26.7 trillion in off balance sheet derivatives. That is over five times their $5.1 trillion in assets. As you can see, world financial markets are vulnerable. One major negative event and it is over. Trading volumes on the world's leading derivatives exchange have soared during late August and in September. The euro-lira interest rate future and the short sterling option posted record activity. The exchange volatility indexes have been going wild.

Floor traders and others say the final culprit in the Monday 6.37% plunge of the Dow was a flurry of mutual fund sell orders executed in the final 40 minutes of trading, when index levels peaked the cost to investors of protecting their gains began to soar. It had become practically impossible to use derivatives for their main purpose: to protect a portfolio. That being so, investors resorted to the ultimate hedge, or protective strategy: selling their holdings. It was the absence, rather than the presence, of the right kind of derivative products at an affordable price that made the sell-off almost inevitable. Due to downward market pressure it is not surprising that the cost to hedge portfolios doubled or trebled during the course of August. Moreover, even at those hefty premiums, many of the large banks and investment dealers that traditionally sell that kind of downside protection effectively retreated from the business. Liquidity dried up. The cost of derivatives had doubled. In the past when put options became costly, investors sold call options and used the premiums received from those transactions to finance the cost of the puts. As you can see, derivatives continue to distort markets unnaturally heightening the casino atmosphere.

Those in the yen carry trade received quite a jolt as hedge funds headed for the exits, as they had been forced to repay the yen loans they took out earlier to finance investments in the U.S. market. As they repay the loans, the demand for yen rises causing it to get stronger and incurring losses for the yen borrower. That in turn encourages profit taking and the sale of dollars. Now you can see why the yen rallied to 1.1173. The FED has to lower interest rates to take the heat off of world currencies. That will allow the yen to remain in the 1.15-1.25 area and the D-mark to trade 1.50-1.65.

The Japanese daily Kochi Shimbun, says the top 19 Japanese banks have potential derivatives losses of $180 billion. Fuji Bank's national volume of outstanding derivatives contracts at the end of March was $3 trillion. The estimated figure of derivatives worldwide from all sources is $140 trillion. Russian default has frozen settlement of $100 billion in contracts. We recently had a broker ask if the figure of $140 trillion in derivatives outstanding a misprint. He is a friend and has been a broker for 25 years. We mention this because the implications of derivatives are staggering, and we see few articles in the media pertaining to their negative possibilities.

The losses due to Asia and Russia will be $250-300 billion and a global loss of liquidity of 16%. That means world monetary authorities will have to increase monetary aggregates by that amount or face a sharp contraction in lending activity. All the figures you see regarding derivative exposure are guesses, because no one really knows for sure. Just one segment, equity derivatives, alone has and could further stagger the stock market. As the market plunged, dealers had to rebalance their portfolios by selling stocks to reduce exposure to further declines. This increased volatility, expedited the downside and caused costs to soar, which rendered averaging impossible. Many dealers closed up shop because they had mispriced their product. This mispricing was widely prevalent.

Major dealers, such as Merrill, Morgan Stanley, J.P. Morgan, Bankers Trust and Goldman Sachs, holding equity of $33 billion had exposure of over $400 billion. This tremendous world derivative exposure explains the 50% retreat of the stocks of many excellent companies. Drops now have little to do with reality but more to do with derivative gambling. The Comptroller of the Currency guesses that the national amount of derivatives in the portfolios of U.S.-based banks is $28.2 trillion, of which 95% is held by the eight largest banks and their off-balance sheet exposure is 243% of their risk based capital. Not to make this exposure diminutive, but Japanese banks have exposure four times their GDP. As we can see, derivatives have already inflicted incalculable collateral damage to the global economy, which we sadly predicted. Now concentration of the primary market makes vulnerability even greater as derivatives grow 4-5 times faster than GDP. This could well leave us in a situation like we just witnessed at Russian banks. One dealer will go bust sooner or later, and the whole house of cards will collapse.

Long-Term Capital management was bailed out by 14 institutions to the tune of $3.6 billion. An example of too big to fail or let's throw good money after bad, so we don't have to show the losses now. This piece of wayward financial management was rewarded by S&P with a downgrade to negative, or junk bond status, of Lehman Bros., Merrill Lynch and Goldman Sachs. Long-Term's fallout was reflected in Convergence Asset Management, which so far shows losses of 30%. At its height, Long-Term's actual total market exposure was $200 billion, or over 300 times its capital base. This is what we have been warning about month after month and no one would listen. Convergence was never that wild they only leveraged 15 times assets. For eight years we told you this was coming and it is here. Feigning concern, Robert Rubin has called for an inter agency study of hedge fund operations and the House Banking Committee will hold hearings. Don't hold your breath. The financial community has 90% of these politicians bought and paid for. Nothing will happen and we'll have a financial collapse.

Four LTCM partners personally borrowed and speculated $43 million. This underscores the extent partners are personally on the hook. They'll probably go bankrupt and the lenders will eat the losses. Our question is how did these people get such enormous loans to gamble with? How did the banks and the FED allow this major breech of lending ethics?

As a result of Long-Term capitals' problems, Julian Robertson's Tiger Management with $20 billion in assets, has unilaterally imposed a 5% exit fee on investors who want to cash out of Tiger and Jaguar in less than 12 months. On 10/7/98 Tiger lost $2 billion while unwinding its yen carry position. They had to buy $10 billion worth of yen. They are still up 10% for the year. Chase has total exposure to hedge funds of $3.2 billion or 2% of its loans, 9% or $300 million is unsecured.

The daily volume of OTC, currency and interest rate derivatives in London has more than doubled from $74 to $171 billion, over the last three years, outstripping New York and Tokyo turnover, which increased from $464 to $637 billion, or 37%. The BIS estimated daily global trading averaged $1.26 trillion in April, 1995, so our $140 trillion figure three years later has to be conservative. The daily average exchange traded interest rate derivatives increased from $177 to $345 billion.

We think that hedge funds are the New Barbarians at the Gate. Had not the FED and the lenders stepped in on LTCM the markets would have had to absorb a $80 billion hit. Tens of billions of illiquid securities would have been dumped on an already brutalized market. The tip off to the gravity of the situation was UBS (Union Bank Swisse) has taken a $700 million writeoff due to LTCM's collapse. LTCM was too big to fail. Now, who is going to bail out the rest of the collapsing hedge funds, most of which are offshore, outside U.S. jurisdiction. Intervention has created the same moral hazard problem that the IMF is so guilty of. If unsuccessful funds are not allowed to fail someone will have to bail them all out. Then maybe they'll bail out the losing margin stock buyer. There is no discipline left. The international monetary system is out of control. Saving LTCM was cronyism at its finest. Look at the connections of the so-called geniuses who ran the fund. And the sanctimonious U.S. turns its nose up at cronyism in Asia and Latin America. We have plenty of the home grown variety right here. Than again isn't membership in the Council on Foreign Relations and The Trilateral Commission supposed to mean something? Those of you who would like to see how it works get a copy of the Brotherhood of the Bell, starring Glenn Ford, produced in the late 60s or early 70s. LTCM was bankrupt and its rescue was funded by banks, the FED engineered the entire operation. This rescue can only lead to loss of credibility and stability in world markets. There is no transparency in world markets and no regulation of derivatives, which we've been calling for since 1974 when we said they would eventually destroy the stock market.

Now, how can the U.S. ask its Japanese counterpart to clean up its banking system and let the weaklings fail? How can we chastise China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Thailand, Malaysia, India, Argentina and Brazil for intervening in supposed, purported free markets? There are no free markets, they are obviously all rigged. Just as the junk bond craze ended we are now seeing the beginning of the end of the abuses in hedge funds sponsored and natured by the international banking community in their greed and lust for more wealth and power. Congress having been paid-off will produce little if any meaningful legislation and regulation. The banks will cut back exposure and most of the excesses will die for lack of funds. Banks don't like losing money or being wiped out. And those noble nitwits should return to their ivory towers where they belong. The majority of hedge funds are operated offshore outside of U.S. jurisdiction, so they can't be controlled by U.S. regulations. It's the banks who have to be brought to heel before Congress and that is never going to happen, because the bankers own 90% of Congress. You can be sure eventually hedge fund losses will be shared by government guaranteed deposit institutions, which means you'll pay these losses.

Brooksley Born, CFTC Chairwoman, has been against all odds trying to get OTC-derivatives regulations, but Congress, the Treasury, the SEC and the FED have stopped her. You talk about a conspiratorial cabal. Banks have gotten filthy rich off derivatives and, of course, cheap give away money from the FED. Born says, "we are the only federal agency with statutory authority to regulate hedge funds and a certain portion of the swaps market" and she is right. It should be noted Richard Lindsay of the SEC said, "uncertainty created by concerns about the imposition of new regulatory costs may stifle innovation and push transactions offshore." Alan Greenspan testified that "no doubt derivatives loses will mushroom at the next significant downturn" he nevertheless saw "no reason to question the underlying stability of OTC markets, or the overall effectiveness of private-market discipline, or the prudential supervision of the derivatives activities of banks and other regulated participants." They knew we would have major hedge fund or bank failures, but were unwilling to do anything to stop it, so banks and their clients, hedge funds, could continue to enrich themselves and destroy whichever economy or country they were directed too. It is not only the money these entities made, but the destruction and recolonization of countries throughout the world. The operation was one of financial and political warfare, a context our kept media dares not discuss.

Just to show you how dishonest and corrupt Congress is during this stock market correction and hedge fund debacle, the House and Senate agreed on Monday 9/27/98 to a six-month moratorium of any expansion of OTC-derivatives authority for the CFTC. This follows a one-year moratorium. Now we ask you, does this smack of cronyism? This moratorium was backed by Senator Robert Smith (R-Ore.) and Senator Richard Lugar (R.Ind.), Chairmen of the Congressional Agriculture Committees that oversee the CFTC. You might write and ask them to explain such behavior in the midst of a multi-trillion dollar crises. Of course, the banks, brokerage houses, hedge funds, the Treasury and the FED were jubilant. Let the looting continue.

The point everyone misses is buying derivatives is not investing. It is gambling, insurance and high stakes bookmaking. Derivatives create nothing. Rick Grove, top man at the International Swaps and Derivatives Association defends the lack of legislation contending it inhibits investment. What investment? Thus hedge funds will be studied to death and legislation will be forthcoming when it is too late and the world's financial markets will have collapsed.

Recent volatile markets have allowed market makers to again cheat buyers and sellers. Orders are being broken into pieces and being scaled up for buyers and down for sellers and with little or no regulation they can do as they please. Many traders have been running naked, having avoided hedging options they sold, because contracts were too expensive to be effective hedges. Stocks have fallen so much that many traders lost money. Some will go out of business.

Finally Alan Greenspan painted a frightening picture of the potential damage LTCM's failure could have inflicted in an address to Congress on Oct. 1. He said,

"on occasion there will be mistakes made, as there were in LTCM and I will forecast without knowing who, what or where, that there will be many more. I would suspect there are potential disasters running into a very large number, in the hundreds."

Where has Greenspan been for the last six years as the derivative problem was building to a climax? We were one of only three publications, that we know of, that consistently warned the world public of the impending problem. With all of this said, Greenspan said he didn't think more regulations would work, using the old canard that the funds would go offshore. Legislators responded by saying oversight was lax and that the bailout was an improper helping hand to rich speculators. Jim Leach (R.Iowa), who is a darling of the banks, suggested that the consortium violated anti-trust laws and questioned its financial concentration. He urged the Justice Department to review the bailout. John Meriwether was a consummate Wall Street insider who manipulated the FED and was able, through whatever devices, to coax billions of dollars in uncollateralized loans from Wall Street. Why was LTCM leveraged some 300 times its capital base? Why was Warren Buffett's offer rejected? He was willing to put up $4 billion with $3.75 billion going to run the portfolio. The cartel put up $3.65 billion for 90% of the fund, leaving principals and investors with a 10% stake, worth $405 million. That left Meriwether and crew with almost twice as much as the truly private bid they turned down. The principal beneficiaries of the rescue, however, were the lenders who advanced the money that built the 300 to 1 leverage. This exercise in crony capitalism, this sweetheart deal, was used to pay deferred management fees that were owed the management company that created the disaster. The fees were used to pay off a $38 million inter company loan, another $50 million loan owed to a bank that was part of the consortium and about $7 million in non-partner deferred employee compensation. The bailout was a back-room deal.

Russia's debt moratorium has forced restructuring of its Treasury bill (GKO) market and has sparked a flood of disputes between western banks over repayment of debts associated with their holdings of such ruble-denominated debt. Derivative protection bought from Russian banks to protect investments is worthless since the government declared a 90-day moratorium and there is no reference rate for the ruble. The derivative credit default swaps at issue should be paid out, because a moratorium is a default. But in a criminal society it might mean something else.

There is growing concern over the credit profile of some of the world's top banks and it has sparked a demand for credit derivatives to insure against possible loan defaults and to limit exposure to these banks. Banks are also taking out protection against each other as a perception grows that they need to insure against banks failing to repay anything from commercial loans to bonds issued by banks themselves. Premiums for AA rated European banks has widened by 1/2% in the last two months due to exposure to Russian and emerging market debt. Credit risk is everywhere. The total outstanding value of credit derivatives is expected to jump to $350 billion by the end of this year and reach $740 billion by 2000. Who writes this insurance and how solvent are they? There are few publications in the world where you can get this kind of information early enough to protect yourself. What the biggest banks in the world are saying is we could all go under. That is right, the credit system could well collapse. The answer is to have small denomination U.S. currency, gold and silver coins and stocks and food and protection. You may well need them if panicking bankers are any indication.

Lipper Analytical Services, says the best performing equity fund in the work, is a hedge fund called Lancer Voyager Fund. Their data base shows assets of $30 million, but no information on what those assets are. Lancer is promoted to the public by web site from So. Africa. If one accesses the Edgar Online web site their securities are shown to be illiquid, highly speculative and of dubious promise. All Lancer does is promote 122% growth in 1997 failing to disclose what their portfolio holds, unless you hunt for it. Only Lancer knows for sure what is in its portfolio. Investors, unless an investment has fully and total transparency, don't buy it.

The BIS survey says, buying and selling of the dollar accounts for 85% of total turnover in London, the world's leading center for foreign exchange. Forty percent of those trades are dollar-euro trades. Turnover in New York has grown 43% since 1995 or an average of $351 billion a day in April versus $224 billion in 1995. In N.Y. swaps accounted for 47% of the foreign exchange volume compared to 42% spot volume. Foreign exchange and interest rate derivatives have increased 75% in 3 years, compared to a 42% increase in spot volume. London OTC derivative currency trading rose 131%. London overall volume is double that of N.Y. This shows you the real derivative exposure and problems could be twice as bad in London than in N.Y.

[THE FOLLOWING IS TO BE IN THE DEC. 98 ISSUE OF INTERNATIONAL FORECASTER DERIVATIVES:]

The exposure of derivative losses continues. Cargill, member of the commodity cartel, lost $200 million. Brooksley Born, head of the CFTC, has called for more transparency in OTC derivatives by demanding more information for creditors and counter parties and the reporting of certain positions to federal regulators. The LTCM, registered with the CFTC, is being investigated. She said, regulators needed to address the issue of excessive leverage by hedge funds and insufficient prudential controls. An Ohio hospital was awarded $21.5 million in arbitration against Kidder Peabody regarding derivative transactions. Turnover in the OTC derivative market soared by 85% since 1995. The D-mark has overtaken the dollar as the most important currency in OTC rate swap transactions with 30% of the market. Volume has risen seven fold. George Soros is shutting down his emerging markets hedge fund Quantum Fund, which lost 31% of its value this year.

The explosive growth of credit derivatives is causing great concern. Some banks may be exposed to significant risks they still do not fully understand. Credit derivatives allow investors worried that a borrower may default or a bond may not be repaid to sell the risk to a third party. Essentially an insurance or bookmaking transaction. The global market for credit derivatives will grow from $180 billion in 1997 to $740 billion in 2000. Experts say there are dangerous hidden risks and that the market has moved far beyond the present, almost non-existent, regulatory environment.

Credit default swaps offers insurance against defaults and total return swaps allow an institution to acquire the cash flows of a bond or other investment without holding the instrument physically. The big buyers are banks, insurance companies and corporations. Both vehicles carry a predetermined premium calculated on the perceived risk. Analysts say there is insufficient liquidity in the credit default swap market to be able to extract enough information about default probability for pricing purposes. There is no model for pricing because the information about default probability isn't there. Who knows the price of a defaulted asset? Then there is the risk of the sellers. Buyers cannot be sure they'll remain in business. Buyers cannot always be sure they are risk-free, such as large hedge funds, which borrow heavily to fund risky positions.

The whole use of derivatives as hedging instruments has come into doubt because many of the counter parties have become dubious. There is a risk of a chain reaction through the entire system. The contracts and terms used from country to country in derivatives are wide open to conflicting interpretation, particularly when it comes to determining if a credit event has occurred, such as with Russian banks. A moratorium has been called. The banks won't pay because they say that doesn't constitute a default. As you can see, derivatives can be classed with land mines. You never know when you'll step into the wrong one and be destroyed.

Julian Robertson said his Tiger funds had lost 17%, or $3.4 billion, through October and he has reduced his debt ratio to 4 to 1. The large cash position is to meet potential demands for more collateral from lenders and requests by investors to cash out at year-end. The 450 investors at the annual meeting were feted to a sumptuous gala diner and dance at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Speaking was Dame Margaret Thatcher, a Tiger board member.

Over the past few years we have warned repeatedly that the derivative markets would be the undoing of the financial system. We just had the first close call with LTCM. In spite of the fact Brooksley Born, chairman of the CFTC, is a long time friend of Hillary Clinton, we think she's done a great job over the past year of warning Congress and the public that OTC derivatives were out of control. Arthur Levitt, Robert Rubin, Alan Greenspan and a purchased Congress have tried to muzzle her, much as they did Henry Gonzalez when he confronted the Fed. Then came the LTCM collapse of Fed sponsored bailouts which rocked already-shaky world financial markets. Ms. Born has resisted intense pressure to back off but hasn't done so. This is the woman who almost became Attorney-General. Ms. Born is an idealist who isn't going to back down. That is until she's told, if you don't, you'll have some very permanent problems.

There is absolutely no regulation or control of the privately traded OTC derivatives market. All those instruments have little collateral, they are off balance sheet and their complexity makes monitoring them extremely difficult, as we've seen with LTCM. If one goes they could all go and bring down the whole financial system. That is why rules and regulations are needed. Alan Greenspan contends hedge funds and others are sophisticated investors and lenders already provide plenty of oversight in the interest of protecting investments. Well, if that were so LTCM would never have happened. Derivatives are out of control and should be strictly regulated by the CFTC.

Afterword:

Reuters reports that UBS entered into its investment with LTCM knowing its leverage was 250 times, breaching the Swiss bank's own guidelines of 30 times, which we consider preposterous. UBS invested $800 million, wrote off $733 million and contributed $300 million to LTCM's rescue. UBS said, "given the very high leverage, we must place great reliance on LTCM's risk management and controls. The business imperative is that this is an important trading counter-party for the bank." LTCM had eight strategic investors, "generally government owned banks in major markets," which owned 30.9% of its capital. They gave LTCM "a window to see the structural changes occurring in these markets to which the strategic investors belong."

There you have it. The Fed was bailing out central banks who owned almost 1/3 of the fund. As you can see UBS and others were also involved with LTCM because they were able to see central bank moves prior to their being known by the public, which is called inside information."
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
Breaking News on CNBC:

AIG Insurance Company sees deliquencies spreading from sub-prime to prime mortgages.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
I really get a kick out of these people thinking this is an isolated thing. Subprime purchased houses support Alt-A purchased houses which support Conforming purchased houses.

If you remove one link in this chain the entire thing falls appart. In 2006 Subprime and Alt-A combined totalled 40% of all originated mortgages. If 20% of those default, which is a fair guesstimate, then 8% of all homes purchased in 2006 go back on the market. As a result, the prices for everything else drops, resulting in further people walking away from their homes.

This is the key difference people forget about. You cannot consider subprime in a vacuum. As you see from mshan above, the next highest borrower, whether that be Alt-A or conforming/prime feels the pressure from below. The next riskiest borrower *will* feel pressure.

What happens if an additional 10-15% of prime borrowers defaults? That tags on a blended default rate of what? 12%? Thats a lot of money gone.

Ben Stein, the commedian/actor is now some sort of economic guru to be parroted everywhere?

Naturally, people are screaming "media media" as HSBC takes a 9 billion dollar hit and other companies take multi-billion dollar hits. This is not a media caused problem.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Did I hear Hillary Clinton talk about bailing out these sub prime lender under the guise of helping the home owners?

What a noble women to spend tax dollars bailing somebody else out of a bad investment
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
Sad thing is that these bailout plans (Chuck Schumer, anyone) are probably really meant to bailout the big banks that provide so much PAC money to them, and in the process kill off competition in the secondary market for the big banks from others lenders and drive mortgage brokers out of business.

If you listen carefully on tv, you will almost never hear people say "banks" in a negative context; it is always "mortgage broker", or at worst "lender". Same thing is probably true if you listen carefully to any Congressional hearing you may see on tv.

Money speaks.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Genx87
Did I hear Hillary Clinton talk about bailing out these sub prime lender under the guise of helping the home owners?

What a noble women to spend tax dollars bailing somebody else out of a bad investment

Agreed. What a ridiculously slippery slope. Does that mean I should rush out, try to find a deadbeat mortgage broker, buy up a ton of properties and hope the gubment will hand out the cheese?

It's pathetic how far we go to prevent or pay for somebody else's poor choices.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: mshan
Sad thing is that these bailout plans (Chuck Schumer, anyone) are probably really meant to bailout the big banks that provide so much PAC money to them, and in the process kill off competition in the secondary market for the big banks from others lenders and drive mortgage brokers out of business.

If you listen carefully on tv, you will almost never hear people say "banks" in a negative context; it is always mortgage broker, or at worst lender.

Money speaks.

That is what I am alluding to in my post as well. Hillary comes out talking about helping the home owner when the fact of the matter is she is getting tax money into the coffers of the banks who made a poor lending decision.
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
"It was not that his team (which included two Nobel Prize winners) necessarily was wrong in its calculations. It is just that, in the rapture of having made huge amounts of money themselves in recent years, they assumed they could do no wrong and exposed themselves to an unforeseen event which promptly occurred."
http://www.usagold.com/derivativeschapman.html


I believe there is plenty of blame to spread all along the food chain here (e.g. unsophisticated foreign investors snatched up these bundled mortgages because the yields were so high. Lenders (banks and others) would kick back like over an additional 3% more of mortgage amount to loan originator for these subprime loans because they were so profitable for them. This is vs. the standard 0.5% rate bump (triples originator profit from 1% to 3%) on standard mortgage loans (google "yield spread premium" and "bank service release premium"). This huge hidden kickback is probably why seedy mortgage brokers talked people who could get a good loan into this subprime junk.



Mortgage Shopping Resources:
- According to the most recent Mortgage Insider podcast ( http://themortgageinsider.net/...der-show-8-3-2007.html ), the true "par" wholesale mortgage rate for prime borrowers was 6.25% last week.
(google "yield spread premium" and "bank service release premium")
- Excellent, more mainstream book on how to shop for a mortgage: http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ...33/102-7310916-5234569
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,839
2,624
136
I've got to disagree with your rosey hopes/conclusion, PJ. For at least a decade we have been dealing with extremely easy credit, esp. as exemplified by the current overblown subprime market.

If you are old enough to remember the last great real estate depression-the one associated with S&L failures-you would remember that credit was very tight then. I had many small business clients with great track records who were having their lines of credit closed (or not renewed), regardless of interest rate. Home mortgages were almost as tight. The result-a huge stoppage of a substantial amount of "Main Street' type economic activity-workmen laid off, suppliers, developers & stores out of business. Wall Street was hit much less harder than the rest of America.

I'm anticipating (with dread) something similar happening soon. We are far more dependant on easy (and continued) credit now, the effects will be far worse. The only way to stave it off will be for the Fed to keep the money pipelines wide open. In a war economy this will be flirting with inflation, something the Fed & Wall Street) despise most of all.

BTW, I don't blame this fiasco on GWB (directly-his obsession with dismantling regulatory controls certainly didn't hinder). Also, a 20% increase, nationally, in foreclosures, is nothing to ignore. Certain areas of the country are also hit far worse.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Heh.

One conclusion is that there are people who got a mortgage that should not have one.

Another is that 87% of the people with sub prime mortgages have houses that otherwise would not have one. I guess that isn't a good thing in your book?

Flip that over-

One conclusion is that there are people who collected fees on mortgages that never should have been made.

Another is that 87% of the people with sub prime mortgages now have mortgage obligations that they can't really afford, on over valued real estate. They don't have "Houses" any more than passengers had "cabins" when the Titanic went down...

And the phenomenon of being over valued extends well beyond the sub prime market, to residential real estate in general, and to the financial health of the lending institutions holding any kind of mortgage securities. Mortgage lending in general is drying up as a result, hastening the price correction required to restore health to the market...

Today's paper equity is an illusion, so anybody not having a great deal of it doesn't really have anything except a place to live and an obligation to pay the lender... or to default, an increasingly popular option...
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,993
4,605
126
ProfJohn, we were at historically low foreclosure rates for a while. Housing prices were skyrocketting and houses were easilly sold. Thus, almost anyone with financial problems could sell the house and not need to foreclose.

So, your article points out that the foreclosure rate is low. That isn't disputed (although the 0.6% number isn't correct, it is far higher than 0.6%, but it is still historically pretty low).

The point I want you to see (and if you would, please comment on it) regards the foreclosures that are COMING. Housing prices have stopped rising so much and houses are sitting on the market longer. You can't just sell the house and be fine if you are in trouble. Combined with the ARM mortgages which are going to increase in monthly payments quite soon, you can see that people who are on the edge might not make it. Look here. See how the resets were low, but we are just on the cusp of a massive increase. It'll be 3-4 times the level it was just a few months ago. In the NEXT year foreclosures will rise (and they have been rising a bit).

It isn't where foreclosure rates are now that bothers people. Now it is not too bad. It is what will happen that matters. And that is a potentially big foreclosure rate. Oct 2007 is when the parade will start coming. Of course, it takes a couple months for a foreclosure to happen. So, watch foreclosure rates around Jan 2008.

You are correct that they are low now. But what happens now and what happens in the future are two completely different things. Do you see the difference?
 

imported_Shivetya

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2005
2,978
1
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Heh.

One conclusion is that there are people who got a mortgage that should not have one.

Another is that 87% of the people with sub prime mortgages have houses that otherwise would not have one. I guess that isn't a good thing in your book?

Flip that over-

One conclusion is that there are people who collected fees on mortgages that never should have been made.
...

Sorry, but I prefer to have these people paying on a home than throwing it down a rat hole at an apartment.



Another is that 87% of the people with sub prime mortgages now have mortgage obligations that they can't really afford, on over valued real estate. They don't have "Houses" any more than passengers had "cabins" when the Titanic went down...

Well that is just stupid to say, if 13% are having problems then how do you assume the other 87 are? Huh?????? How do you know they cannot really afford it? Are you one of these people who drives down the road and passes judgement on other drivers ... uh... she can't really afford that Mercedes - damn trophy?

What an arrogant little shit you are
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
"Sorry, but I prefer to have these people paying on a home than throwing it down a rat hole at an apartment."

EDIT: other sad thing about this housing bubble is that a foreclosure will probably scar these former home owner's credit so badly that they may never be able to purchase a home again.


April 11, 2007
Economix
A Word of Advice During a Housing Slump: Rent

By DAVID LEONHARDT
A promotional spot for the National Association of Realtors came on the radio the other day. The spot, introduced as something called ?Newsmakers,? was supposed to sound like a news report, with the association?s president offering real estate advice.

?This is the best time to buy,? Pat Vredevoogd Combs, the president, said cheerfully. ?There?s a lot of inventory in the marketplace. Interest rates are low. It?s a wonderful tax deduction.?

By the Realtors? way of thinking, it?s always a good time to buy. Homeownership, they argue, is a way to achieve the American dream, save on taxes and earn a solid investment return all at the same time.

That?s how it has worked out for much of the last 15 years. But in a stark reversal, it?s now clear that people who chose renting over buying in the last two years made the right move. In much of the country, including large parts of the Northeast, California, Florida and the Southwest, recent home buyers have faced higher monthly costs than renters and have lost money on their investment in the meantime. It?s almost as if they have thrown money away, an insult once reserved for renters.

Most striking, perhaps, is the fact that prices may not yet have fallen far enough for buying to look better than renting today, except for people who plan to stay in a home for many years.

With the spring moving season under way, The New York Times has done an analysis of buying vs. renting in every major metropolitan area. The analysis includes data on housing costs and looks at different possibilities for the path of home prices in coming years.

It found that even though rents have recently jumped, the costs that come with buying a home ? mortgage payments, property taxes, fees to real estate agents ? remain a lot higher than the costs of renting. So buyers in many places are basically betting that home prices will rise smartly in the near future.

Over the next five years, which is about the average amount of time recent buyers have remained in their homes, prices in the Los Angeles area would have to rise more than 5 percent a year for a typical buyer there to do better than a renter. The same is true in Phoenix, Las Vegas, the New York region, Northern California and South Florida. In the Boston and Washington areas, the break-even point is about 4 percent.

?House prices have to fall more before housing becomes a clear buy again,? says Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody?s Economy.com, a research company that helped conduct the analysis. ?These markets aren?t as overvalued as they were a year ago or two years ago, but they?re still unfriendly. And that?s one of the reasons the market is still soft ? people realize it?s not a bargain.?

There is obviously no way to know what home prices will do in the next few years. But there are two big reasons to doubt the real estate boosters who insist that it?s once again a great time to buy.

The first is history. After the last big run-up in house prices, in the 1980s, a long slump followed. In the New York area, prices peaked in early 1989 and then fell 9 percent over the next three years, according to government data. (Adjusted for inflation, the drop was much bigger.) Not until 1998 did prices pass their earlier peak.

Keep in mind that the 2000-5 boom was even bigger than the ?80s boom and that house prices on the coasts, according to the official numbers at least, have fallen only slightly so far. So it is hard to imagine that prices will rise 5 percent a year, or another 28 percent in all, over the next five years.

The second reason for skepticism is that buying has never been quite as beneficial as Realtors ? and mortgage brokers, home builders and everybody else who makes money off home purchases ? have made it out to be. Buyers have to pay property taxes on top of their mortgage, while renters have the taxes included in their monthly rent bill. Buyers also face thousands of dollars in closing costs (and, in Manhattan, co-op charges). Renters, meanwhile, can invest what they would have spent on closing costs and a down payment in the stock market, which hasn?t exactly delivered a bad return over the last 20 years.

And that famous mortgage-interest tax deduction? Yes, it reduces the borrowing costs that come with a mortgage, but it doesn?t eliminate them. Renters don?t face any such borrowing costs.

Almost two years ago, I interviewed a thoughtful 37-year-old man named Tchaka Owen, who happens to be a real estate agent. (Whatever the sins of the Realtors? association, there are a lot of smart, helpful agents out there. Just remember that they have a financial interest in getting you to buy a house.)

Mr. Owen and his girlfriend, Polly Thompson, had recently moved from the Washington suburbs to the Miami area and decided to rent a two-bedroom apartment with spectacular bay views. ?You can get so much more for your money, renting instead of buying,? he said at the time.

Sure enough, house prices soon began to fall in South Florida, and Mr. Owen and Ms. Thompson started to think about buying a place. A three-bedroom Mediterranean-style house that they liked was originally listed for $620,000 last year, but the price was later cut to $543,000. They bought it in June for $516,000. Since then, the market has fallen further, but Mr. Owen said he didn?t mind, because they plan to stay in the house at least a decade. ?We love it,? he told me.

Clearly, there are benefits to owning a house beyond the financial, like the comfort of knowing you can stay as long as you want or can fix the roof without permission. But real estate has been sold as more than a good way to spend money. It has been sold as a can?t-miss investment. Back in 2005, near the peak of the market, the chief economist of the Realtors? association, David Lereah, published a book called ?Are You Missing the Real Estate Boom?? The can?t-miss argument was wrong then, and it may still be wrong today.

After hearing that radio spot, I called Ms. Combs and asked her whether she thought there was any chance that she and her fellow Realtors had gone a bit too far in promoting the boom. ?I absolutely disagree,? she said, still cheerful. ?We help people look at the marketplace.?

So I asked what advice she gave her own clients in Grand Rapids, Mich., where she is an agent. ?We often tell people that they need to stay in a house five to six years for it to make sense,? she said.

That?s a nuance that didn?t make it into her ?Newsmakers? interview. In Grand Rapids, where the median home costs $130,000, it is probably good advice. In a lot of other places, it may still be too optimistic.


NY Times Rent. vs. Buy Calculator (adjust advanced settings for your situation): http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04...97f7ae4ce33648&ei=5070
 

jman19

Lifer
Nov 3, 2000
11,225
664
126
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Genx87
Did I hear Hillary Clinton talk about bailing out these sub prime lender under the guise of helping the home owners?

What a noble women to spend tax dollars bailing somebody else out of a bad investment

Agreed. What a ridiculously slippery slope. Does that mean I should rush out, try to find a deadbeat mortgage broker, buy up a ton of properties and hope the gubment will hand out the cheese?

It's pathetic how far we go to prevent or pay for somebody else's poor choices.

An even bigger danger with bailouts is that once they happen, the expectation of them in the future will affect the mindsets of lenders - when they eventually don't come, the problem is even worse than it originally was.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Whadda Con job . . .
Also there are 254,000 mortgages in foreclosure right now
What Johnny is not saying is that foreclosures are on track to exceed 2 million homes in the next year . . .

And while it is safe to assume the truth always lies somewhere in the middle, when "pundits" predict land/home values to fall in some areas between 10-20% by the end of 20080 that affects everyone . . .
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,993
4,605
126
How about a link with actual numbers to back up my previous post. One of the biggest lenders says:
[*]Delinquencies were 2.5%
[*]10.8% subprime are 60+ days late.
[*]4.6% late in category above subprime
[*]Delinquency rates for first mortgages had risen to 3.98% in June from 3.56% in April and a low of 3.08% in July 2005.

While this doesn't include all mortgages in the US, it is a fairly accurate representation of them. Note how it isn't 0.6%, but about 4 times greater. Also note how the delinquency rates are really just starting to tick up.