So many similarities between Bush admin (and supporters) and repression

[daveshel]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
What an interesting topic. I just learned that Bush (and his supporters) are similar to facists. He (and his supporters) are like Joseph McCarthy. He (and his supporters) parallel the actions of Hitler. He (and his supporters) are evil. I am told that Bush (and his supporters) are more dangerous than Japan in WWII, the Soviets during the Cold War, and the issue of slavery and the Civil War was. His (and his supporters) actions are compared to the Crusades.

I am astonished that nobody speaks up. People tear into Bush like he's the anti-christ himself, comparing him to the most evil, dangerous, and wrong-headed people and actions in history. This is rational discusion? I can't believe there is such intolerant, hateful, bone-headed extremism... and it's just accepted. Never in my wildest dreams would I say such over-the-top things about someone I disagreed with politically. I thought Clinton has some bad ideas and leadership/character issues, but I do believe he's a patriot and wanted to help America. A lot of people don't care for Kerry, but I'm not hearing them say he's the evil spawn of satan... they're just saying he's wrong.

Such insanely vicious statements are not only obviously false, but it totally undermines any real, logical arguments that do exist. It demeans the presidency, it de-values the greatness of this country, and assaults tens of millions of decent people who have an honest difference of opinion with you. The fact that people can casually sit back and make the most outlandish claims is disturbing and shameful. Thankfully, average and normal people will see it for what it is: disgusting lies from hateful people.

You might get more mileage out of stating arguments that counter those with which you disagree than just condemning those making the arguments on the basis that they are extreme.

 

[etech]

But don't you see Conjur, I've decided to let you and your group of lefties win. Contine posting your biased hyperbole. Continue your rants without facts. Ban the people that disagree with you. Continue on as you and your buddies have been. It really doesn't matter to me. I came back for one reason and that reason was in another forum. I am just acknowleding that I am letting you win.

You can't fight city hall you know.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: daveshel
OK, both are wars in which there is a good deal of public sentiment that the government is not being honest about our reasons for being there. In Viet Nam, the media's capabilities to bring the killing into our living rooms caught the government by surprise. Have they learned nothing? And I believe you are trying to advocate keeping the truth from our soldiers so as to keep them committed to their mission. By now it should be clear that the truth is going to come out, thanks to a vigilant media. Don't you think a better strategy to keep morale high in the military would be to tell the soldiers the truth rather than to attempt to supress it?

Just look at Rumsfeld calling on a ban of digital cameras used by troops.

Look at the order to no longer photograph the coffins arriving at Dover.

There are other instances where Rumsfeld has tried and/or succeeded in restricting media access to news of the ongoing conflict.

And, look at the overall secrecy of this administration. The press corps is aware of it and has complained about it. Waxman, of the bi-partisan Government Reform Committee, has issued documents describing the lengths this administration has gone to operate in secrecy.

Ashcroft has written memos to various departments that he will back their rejections of FOIA requests.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: conjur

Try reading before you dismiss the content.

BTW, what do you think the Watergate scandal was all about? Hmmm? Have *any* sort of clue?

Technical Surveillance Counter Measures (TSCM) is our specialty. Bugsweeping for telephone line bugs and wiretaps (using wiretap detection), computer data line taps and bugs (telecommunications security), and bugsweep your conference rooms (using electronic room sweeping).

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C-mon conjur, they are peddling their wares, snakeoil or what not using this tidbit of info you linked to...to even think of calling this a credible source is laughable at best...my previous points still stand.

 

[daveshel]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: daveshel
OK, both are wars in which there is a good deal of public sentiment that the government is not being honest about our reasons for being there. In Viet Nam, the media's capabilities to bring the killing into our living rooms caught the government by surprise. Have they learned nothing? And I believe you are trying to advocate keeping the truth from our soldiers so as to keep them committed to their mission. By now it should be clear that the truth is going to come out, thanks to a vigilant media. Don't you think a better strategy to keep morale high in the military would be to tell the soldiers the truth rather than to attempt to supress it?

Honestly I am advocating nothing of the sort, merly saying that I can understand why the govt during vietnam or any war would want to reduce critical comment...is it wrong? sure...but do I see it happening this go around? nope...especially not with movies like F911 and all of the other critical pieces comming out. I am more curious as to what influence the media has on the public and if pushing an agenda effects the populations sentiments, remember Katie Couric cried...

It's like the clean hands doctrine: if you want to reduce critical comment, put your cards on the table and don't try lie about your motives.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
What an interesting topic. I just learned that Bush (and his supporters) are similar to facists. He (and his supporters) are like Joseph McCarthy. He (and his supporters) parallel the actions of Hitler. He (and his supporters) are evil. I am told that Bush (and his supporters) are more dangerous than Japan in WWII, the Soviets during the Cold War, and the issue of slavery and the Civil War was. His (and his supporters) actions are compared to the Crusades.

And where did you learn of these? You were the first to mention Hitler, the Soviets, and Japan.

I'm not equating Bush with Hitler. Far from it.

I'm talking about the actions of the administration as a whole and the move toward authoritarianism and repression (of basic civil rights)

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: conjur

Try reading before you dismiss the content.

BTW, what do you think the Watergate scandal was all about? Hmmm? Have *any* sort of clue?

<BS rant snipped>

Still waiting on that answer.

 

[AntiEverything]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
What an interesting topic. I just learned that Bush (and his supporters) are similar to facists. He (and his supporters) are like Joseph McCarthy. He (and his supporters) parallel the actions of Hitler. He (and his supporters) are evil. I am told that Bush (and his supporters) are more dangerous than Japan in WWII, the Soviets during the Cold War, and the issue of slavery and the Civil War was. His (and his supporters) actions are compared to the Crusades.

I am astonished that nobody speaks up. People tear into Bush like he's the anti-christ himself, comparing him to the most evil, dangerous, and wrong-headed people and actions in history. This is rational discusion? I can't believe there is such intolerant, hateful, bone-headed extremism... and it's just accepted. Never in my wildest dreams would I say such over-the-top things about someone I disagreed with politically. I thought Clinton has some bad ideas and leadership/character issues, but I do believe he's a patriot and wanted to help America. A lot of people don't care for Kerry, but I'm not hearing them say he's the evil spawn of satan... they're just saying he's wrong.

Such insanely vicious statements are not only obviously false, but it totally undermines any real, logical arguments that do exist. It demeans the presidency, it de-values the greatness of this country, and assaults tens of millions of decent people who have an honest difference of opinion with you. The fact that people can casually sit back and make the most outlandish claims is disturbing and shameful. Thankfully, average and normal people will see it for what it is: disgusting lies from hateful people.

Notice how you have been ignored.

Also notice how DealMonkey earlier in this thread can see that "neocons" call the left unpatriotic, but yet can't see any correlating action by the left. Hmmm, the left says that if you vote for Bush you're either stupid or evil. Seems to me that's the exact same thing as calling the left "unpatriotic". But DealMonkey is blind, just like the rest of the left.

The left is blind to their own hypocrisy, and that's why Kerry can only rougly equal a bad president like Bush in the polls.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
Also notice how DealMonkey earlier in this thread can see that "neocons" call the left unpatriotic, but yet can't see any correlating action by the left. Hmmm, the left says that if you vote for Bush you're either stupid or evil. Seems to me that's the exact same thing as calling the left "unpatriotic". But DealMonkey is blind, just like the rest of the left.

The left is blind to their own hypocrisy, and that's why Kerry can only rougly equal a bad president like Bush in the polls.

Hmmm, I suppose. I know I haven't said anything to that effect, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. Then again, that's why I phrased it as a question.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: AntiEverything

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Notice how you have been ignored.

Notice how you are wrong (I and daveshel both replied to cwjerome)

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: conjur

Try reading before you dismiss the content.

BTW, what do you think the Watergate scandal was all about? Hmmm? Have *any* sort of clue?

<BS rant snipped>

Still waiting on that answer.

little strawman here eh....sorry but try staying on topic.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: etech
Don't expect unbiased moderation in this forum.

It's obvious that the lefties are in charge here.

So be it, there are better places to discuss politics where people aren't banned because the mods don't like their politics.

First, welcome back. Second, while I studiously avoid comments about the moderation here -- it's their sandbox and we're all freeloaders, so they can do whatever they please -- you have piqued my curiousity. Can you point to any cases where someone was vacationed solely because of their politics and NOT because of the way they chose to express them? In every case I can think of, the vacation was prompted by particularly nasty personal attacks, incessant blatant trolling, and other similar offenses.

Oh that's right. Getting you to answer questions was always a challenge. Your typical M.O. was to drop some absurd claim and run away. It's a shame that hasn't changed.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Oh that's right. Getting you to answer questions was always a challenge. Your typical M.O. was to drop some absurd claim and run away. It's a shame that hasn't changed.

Drive-by trolling. :thumbsdown:

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: conjur

Try reading before you dismiss the content.

BTW, what do you think the Watergate scandal was all about? Hmmm? Have *any* sort of clue?

<BS rant snipped>

Still waiting on that answer.

little strawman here eh....sorry but try staying on topic.

Ah, ok. You troll and divert and I call you on it and now you want to stay on topic in order to avoid answering a question that will prove my point?

 

[cwjerome]

Well, when someone says "Remember the rise of authoritarianism in 1930s Germany?" in a comparison to the current administration, I think Hitler plays an important role in that. Let's not beat around the bush, many people have said it on this website, you just implied it, MoveOn.org did it in an advertisment. Someone else in this topic said Bush was the greatest threat we've ever had... so obviously he meant EVER (Japan, Soviets). This is cartoon stuff... evil, facist, crusades... earlier today I was informed that conservatives are equal to the Taliban. Absurdist political nonsense. Daveshel, you have to be a fool to think I'm going to argue with this kind of garbage.

You people talk about "repression", "lies", "facism", "hate", "propaganda", etc etc... and it's YOU doing those very things. The worst thing is this hypocrisy is not sincere, far from it actually. You just say anything, no matter how crazed and extremist, but you don't really believe it. Your exagerrating -invalidating your position- because if you people believed that Bush (and almost half the country) was evil, facist, Hitler-like, Taliban Crusaders than you'd be advocating assasination (if you have a shred of morality) and there'd be civil war.

You guys are so used to it... saying radical, nutty things, that you can't even SEE the corollaries and consequences of the vile accusations. And it's utterly laughable that you want me to counter your guy's claims that Bush has a 5th century religious mentality and wants to conquer the Holy Land for Christianity (Crusades) or that he is a raving racist who's bent on world domination (Hitler), or any of the other weird, outlandish claims... oh my.

 

[conjur]

MoveOn.org did NOT do it in an advertisement. That's a distortion of the truth.

They had a contest and one of the submissions did equate Bush with Hitler. MoveOn.org removed that ad from their site.

Let's stick to the facts, eh?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Well, when someone says "Remember the rise of authoritarianism in 1930s Germany?" in a comparison to the current administration, I think Hitler plays an important role in that. Let's not beat around the bush, many people have said it on this website, you just implied it, MoveOn.org did it in an advertisment. Someone else in this topic said Bush was the greatest threat we've ever had... so obviously he meant EVER (Japan, Soviets). This is cartoon stuff... evil, facist, crusades... earlier today I was informed that conservatives are equal to the Taliban. Absurdist political nonsense. Daveshel, you have to be a fool to think I'm going to argue with this kind of garbage.

You people talk about "repression", "lies", "facism", "hate", "propaganda", etc etc... and it's YOU doing those very things. The worst thing is this hypocrisy is not sincere, far from it actually. You just say anything, no matter how crazed and extremist, but you don't really believe it. Your exagerrating -invalidating your position- because if you people believed that Bush (and almost half the country) was evil, facist, Hitler-like, Taliban Crusaders than you'd be advocating assasination (if you have a shred of morality) and there'd be civil war.

You guys are so used to it... saying radical, nutty things, that you can't even SEE the corollaries and consequences of the vile accusations. And it's utterly laughable that you want me to counter your guy's claims that Bush has a 5th century religious mentality and wants to conquer the Holy Land for Christianity (Crusades) or that he is a raving racist who's bent on world domination (Hitler), or any of the other weird, outlandish claims... oh my.

Your whole argument smacks of the claims of those opposing same-sex marriage calling people like me a bigot because I'm intolerant of their intolerance.

Sorry, that doesn't wash.

There's a right way and a wrong way.

Stomping on civil rights and suppressing free speech and the freedom of assembly is the WRONG way. No ifs, ands, or buts.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: etech
Don't expect unbiased moderation in this forum.

It's obvious that the lefties are in charge here.

So be it, there are better places to discuss politics where people aren't banned because the mods don't like their politics.

First, welcome back. Second, while I studiously avoid comments about the moderation here -- it's their sandbox and we're all freeloaders, so they can do whatever they please -- you have piqued my curiousity. Can you point to any cases where someone was vacationed solely because of their politics and NOT because of the way they chose to express them? In every case I can think of, the vacation was prompted by particularly nasty personal attacks, incessant blatant trolling, and other similar offenses.

Oh that's right. Getting you to answer questions was always a challenge. Your typical M.O. was to drop some absurd claim and run away. It's a shame that hasn't changed.

Like he wouldn't have been banned if he presented such a case? Are you that naive?:roll:
The mods don't allow public challenges to their actions and they've stated that on many occasions.

Nice try though Bow.

CsG

 

[daveshel]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Well, when someone says "Remember the rise of authoritarianism in 1930s Germany?" in a comparison to the current administration, I think Hitler plays an important role in that. Let's not beat around the bush, many people have said it on this website, you just implied it, MoveOn.org did it in an advertisment. Someone else in this topic said Bush was the greatest threat we've ever had... so obviously he meant EVER (Japan, Soviets). This is cartoon stuff... evil, facist, crusades... earlier today I was informed that conservatives are equal to the Taliban. Absurdist political nonsense. Daveshel, you have to be a fool to think I'm going to argue with this kind of garbage.

You people talk about "repression", "lies", "facism", "hate", "propaganda", etc etc... and it's YOU doing those very things. The worst thing is this hypocrisy is not sincere, far from it actually. You just say anything, no matter how crazed and extremist, but you don't really believe it. Your exagerrating -invalidating your position- because if you people believed that Bush (and almost half the country) was evil, facist, Hitler-like, Taliban Crusaders than you'd be advocating assasination (if you have a shred of morality) and there'd be civil war.

You guys are so used to it... saying radical, nutty things, that you can't even SEE the corollaries and consequences of the vile accusations. And it's utterly laughable that you want me to counter your guy's claims that Bush has a 5th century religious mentality and wants to conquer the Holy Land for Christianity (Crusades) or that he is a raving racist who's bent on world domination (Hitler), or any of the other weird, outlandish claims... oh my.

If your argument consists of calling me a fool, maybe you shouldn't hang out at a discussion forum.

If your argememt consists of questioning the validity of my beliefs as unpatriotic, get in line, but I have the support of founding fathers and a former Republican president:

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

I speak after decades of silence because of my love for my country and what I see as backsliding and forgetting lessons we were have supposed to have learned long ago.

 

[conjur]

There's still one thing missing from this thread.

Someone supporting Bush showing, with proof, not rhetoric nor insults, that I'm wrong in positing the similarities from the OP.

 

[daveshel]

Originally posted by: conjur
There's still one thing missing from this thread.

Someone supporting Bush showing, with proof, not rhetoric nor insults, that I'm wrong in positing the similarities from the OP.

There have been some similarities listed, but no argument refuting them, just insults and accusations of bias.

 

[cwjerome]

Conjur, you say "Stomping on civil rights and suppressing free speech and the freedom of assembly is the WRONG way. No ifs, ands, or buts." That's good, state your position. With evidence, reasoning etc we have a good discussion. I'm happy.

But all I'm saying is you guys feel the need to go into these hateful, intolerant rants that turn things into a farce. Bush is not facist, there's no crusade, and I'm not Taliban, lol. I can argue points without saying that 100+ million Americans are facist-following evildoers, etc etc. Words having meaning, and you people say some whoppers without the slightest thought of the implications. I have more faith in people, America, our beliefs, and our institutions.

Daveshel: you say (quote) "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

and

"I speak after decades of silence because of my love for my country and what I see as backsliding and forgetting lessons we were have supposed to have learned long ago."

That's cool... I agree wiht your quote and respect your position. Do not, however, think either entails extremist, false, over-the-top accusations and indictments against me and other people.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Conjur, you say "Stomping on civil rights and suppressing free speech and the freedom of assembly is the WRONG way. No ifs, ands, or buts." That's good, state your position. With evidence, reasoning etc we have a good discussion. I'm happy.

But all I'm saying is you guys feel the need to go into these hateful, intolerant rants that turn things into a farce. Bush is not facist, there's no crusade, and I'm not Taliban, lol. I can argue points without saying that 100+ million Americans are facist-following evildoers, etc etc. Words having meaning, and you people say some whoppers without the slightest thought of the implications. I have more faith in people, America, our beliefs, and our institutions.

1) I never called Bush a Fascist.
2) I never said you were Taliban.
3) I never ranted in the OP.

I was posting my observations of what I've seen from the Bush administration and the Bush campaign and comparing it to other events in world and U.S. history.

Here we are, 70 posts later and NO ONE has offered any sort of refutation of my observations.

 

[jjzelinski]

One of the explicit goals of this amdinistration has been to strengthen the power of the executive branch, which put differently amounts to an effort to centralize more power unto one person. This administration has been especially secretive compared to previous ones, and Bush openly denounces "liberals", in essence disovowing them his allegigience to represent them as the nations foremost PUBLIC SERVANT. Personally, I'm extremely disappointed with the manner in which a large portion of our society tolerates this "style" of leadership when amounts to a big FU to the people of our nation.

 

[daveshel]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Daveshel: ...Do not, however, think either entails extremist, false, over-the-top accusations and indictments against me and other people.

You will have a hard time finding examples of me bringing these to the table. I stay focused on the argument, not the person making it. You, on the other hand, have made personal attacks in this very thread.