so Manifest Destiny is racist now?

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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Just find me one post where I claimed I was a patriot. Just one.

My bad, your loyalties lie with the cult of corporate propagandists. How silly of me to assume any less.

You would make a good propagandist for the Chinese or Northern Koreans to make capitalism look stupid.

Cash in while you are ahead!
 
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Vic Vega

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2010
4,536
3
0
LOL @ "native Mexican population". I guess if you live somewhere for 200 years after killing off or enslaving a population you're now a native.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
LOL @ "native Mexican population". I guess if you live somewhere for 200 years after killing off or enslaving a population you're now a native.
? I'd say there are many more ethnically Mexican Mexicans than ethnically Spanish Mexicans, if that's what you're implying.

One people conquering another is indeed the way the world worked, including among the Native American tribes, and not particularly racist. However, Manifest Destiny refers not to that process, but to an attempt to explain that process as G-d's will and therefore a good and holy thing rather a typically human but arguably evil thing. That is why the shirt is offensive, and while I have no problem with it, I certainly wouldn't want it sold in my business. Unless of course my business was the selling of offensive tee shirts.
 

Fayd

Diamond Member
Jun 28, 2001
7,971
2
76
www.manwhoring.com
? I'd say there are many more ethnically Mexican Mexicans than ethnically Spanish Mexicans, if that's what you're implying.

since "mexican" literally means mixture, i'm not really sure where you're going with this. if you're saying that people ethnically "mexican" are not ethnically spanish, then you're wrong. if you're saying people that aren't ethnically spanish are more popular in mexico than those ethnically spanish, you're still wrong.

indians are a minority down there. and they're treated pretty bad, as well.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,442
7,506
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Manifest Destiny was simply the declaration that the United States would conquer as much of North America as it could get away with. This is a social conquest, does not give two shits about skin color.

Like saying it's racist to invade Canada.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
since "mexican" literally means mixture, i'm not really sure where you're going with this. if you're saying that people ethnically "mexican" are not ethnically spanish, then you're wrong. if you're saying people that aren't ethnically spanish are more popular in mexico than those ethnically spanish, you're still wrong.

indians are a minority down there. and they're treated pretty bad, as well.
Pure-blooded natives are a minority, yes, but so are pure-blooded Europeans. From the wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Mexico#Ethnic_groups
In May 2009, Mexico's National Institute of Genomic Medicine issued a report on a genomic study of 300 mestizos from the states of Guerrero, Sonora, Veracruz, Yucatán, Zacatecas, and Guanajuato. The study found that the Mestizo population of these Mexican states were on average 55.2% of indigenous ancestry followed by 41.8% of European, 1.8% of African, and 1.2% of East Asian ancestry. The study also noted that whereas Mestizo individuals from the southern state of Guerrero showed on average 66% of indigenous ancestry, those from the northern state of Sonora displayed about 61.6% European ancestry. The study found that there was an increase in indigenous ancestry as one traveled towards to the Southern states in Mexico, while the indigenous ancestry declined as one traveled to the Northern states in the country, such as Sonora.[76]

In addition, several genetic studies have shown that the average Mexican from Mexico City, the capital of the nation, has on average of over 65% of indigenous ancestry.[77]

In 2004, the Mexican government founded the National Institute of Genomic Medicine (INMEGEN) which launched the Mexican Genome Diversity Project. In May 2009, the Institute issued a report on a major genomic study of 300 mestizos in the Mexican population. Among the findings it was reported that over 80% of the population is mestizo and that the proportions of European and indigenous ancestry are approximately even.[78] The proportions of admixture were found to vary geographically from north to south, as previous pre-genomic studies had surmised, with the European contribution predominating in the north and the indigenous component greater in the south. One of the significant conclusions of the study as reported was that even while it is composed of diverse ancestral genetic groups from around the world, the Mexican population is, more or less, genetically distinctive among the world's populations.[79] Some Mexicans of mixed descent also have a very small amount of African blood, with the most significant amount being found in southern central Mexico. Mexicans of East Asian descent are also very low in number, but can be found in significant levels in Baja California, especially Mexicali, as well as a select few other parts of Mexico.[80] Some researchers, however, also believe that there are no "pure races" among the ethnically Mexican population.[81]
Not as high an indigenous percentage as I'd thought, but evidently 80% of the population is mestizo, and according to whose figures you believe, the mestizo population averages either 55% to 42% indigenous, or roughly even. Either way though I don't think it's fair to refer to the Mexicans as conquerers (except in the vein that virtually all peoples are conquerers.)
 

slayernine

Senior member
Jul 23, 2007
895
0
71
slayernine.com
Manifest Destiny was simply the declaration that the United States would conquer as much of North America as it could get away with. This is a social conquest, does not give two shits about skin color.

Like saying it's racist to invade Canada.

I wonder if Romney would consider invading Canada for oil? As a Canadian I would consider it very rude but not racist. Perhaps racist if you mistreated the native population worse that we do? But really are they any more native than someone like myself whose family has lived here for many many generations.

Also Perknose, our tank locations are very well know to the USA. In fact the American military often comes up here in Alberta for training collaboration exorcises in Wainwright. Or so I've heard from people in the Canadian Armed Forces. I'm also curious what America plans to do in relation to all the claims being thrown around with the North Pole region.

Romney has mentioned respect for Canada's current conservative policies in relation to tax and industry and Obama has cock blocked our pipeline and oil interests. However I see Romney as more of a threat, he seems more aggressive, more of a manifest destiny type president.

As weird as it sounds, I really wish I could vote for the American President. I do have one Grandmother from Oklahoma but more so because American politics have far reaching implications on Canada.

Also if America wasn't so busy with it's civil war, Canada wouldn't have been able to defend its borders. So thanks for not manifest destining all over my backyard. ;)
 

Northern Lawn

Platinum Member
May 15, 2008
2,231
2
0
Manifest Destiny was the idea that white Americans were owed the continent by divine providence and used as justification for driving American Indians and Mexicans from their lands. It's been viewed as racist ever since we started feeling guilty about that.

Isn't this what is called "The Secret"?
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
1,338
5
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If it wasn't about race, shouldn't Americans have invaded all the Canadian territories in the name of Manifest Destiny.
Quite ignorant of history, eh? The entire label of Manifest Destiny directly arose due to US intent upon expanding into territories that were to become Canadian. "54-40 or fight!!" not ring a bell? Hint, that region remains well to the north of the US-Canadian border at the 49th parallel between BC and Washington state.

...tensions grew as American expansionists like U.S. Senator Edward A. Hannegan of Indiana, or Congressman Leonard Henly Sims, Missouri, which urged Polk to annex the entire Oregon Country north to the parallel 54°40′ north, as the Democrats had called for in the election. The turmoil gave rise to slogans like "Fifty-four Forty or Fight!" and the catchphrase "Manifest Destiny".
Now, as far as practiced bigotry and racism goes, there is a strong national moral character difference between the USA and many other states. The rule of thumb, is generally that the USA is quite tardy in catching up to the morality of more civilised states. This was true with concerns to slavery, genocidal war upon aboriginal populations, on through to more modern civil rights from that of disenfranchised blacks to homosexuals.

In terms of Manifest Destiny, a great contrast can be found between the expansion of Canadian territory to that of the USA. For far too long in the USA it was practiced and accepted that military warfare upon neighbouring aboriginal populations was an accepted method for expansion and of cleansing the territories for colonisation. A brief and simplistic contrast is that to 19th Canada, where rather than the marching and rampaging of military campaigns, the incorporation of the North West Mounted Police was employed to bring lawful resolution and often a buffer against the incursion of often US bred opportunists into Canada who retained their nationally honed and relatively uncivilised, barbarically violent intents against the natives:

The need was particularly urgent given reports of American whiskey traders, in particular those of Fort Whoop-Up, causing trouble in the region, culminating in the Cypress Hills Massacre. The new force was initially to be called the North West Mounted Rifles, but this proposal was rejected as sounding too militaristic in nature, which Macdonald feared would antagonize both aboriginals and Americans; however, the force was organized along the lines of a cavalry regiment in the British Army, and was to wear red uniforms.
..
The NWMP's early activities included containing the whiskey trade and enforcing agreements with the First Nations peoples; to that end, the commanding officer of the force arranged to be sworn in as a justice of the peace, which allowed for magisterial authority within the Mounties' jurisdiction. In the early years, the force's dedication to enforcing the law on behalf of the First Nations peoples impressed the latter enough to encourage good relations between them and the Crown. In the summer of 1876, Sitting Bull and thousands of Sioux fled from the US Army towards what is now southern Saskatchewan, and James Morrow Walsh of the NWMP was charged with maintaining control in the large Sioux settlement at Wood Mountain. Walsh and Sitting Bull became good friends, and the peace at Wood Mountain was maintained.

A brief case of such national discrepancies was recorded close to me, during the Fraser Canyon Gold Rush and the Fraser Canyon War that was incensed by US miners and their importation of sullied US ideals:

The Fraser Canyon War, also known as the Canyon War or the Fraser River War, was an incident between the Nlaka'pamux people and white miners in the newly declared Colony of British Columbia, which later became part of Canada, in 1858. It occurred during the Fraser Canyon Gold Rush, which brought a large number of white settlers to the Fraser Canyon area.

...

Meetings were held by the miners, most of whom had been in the California gold rush but were a diverse lot of men from all over the world. Of the six regiments hastily organized to respond to the war, one named the Austrian Company, captained by a John Centras, was composed of French and German irregulars who had served with the William Walker filibustering campaign in Nicaragua in 1853, and had relocated to the California goldfields afterwards, following the other Californian miners northwards to Yale when news of the Fraser rush reached San Francisco (many of the Americans in the goldfields had also served in Walker's rebellion). Another regiment, the Whatcom Company, was formed of mostly southerners under the command of Captain Graham. This regiment was of the "a good Indian is a dead Indian" persuasion and was bent on a war of extermination. The Whatcom Company's name was taken from that of the Whatcom Trail, which traversed what is now Whatcom County, Washington State from Bellingham Bay on Puget Sound, and which was used in open defiance of the British colonial administration's edict that access to the goldfields be made from Victoria and via steamboat from there only; in other words, their name implicitly indicated their annexationist sentiments.

..

At Camchin, the assembled leaders of the Nlaka'pamux and allies from the Secwepemc (Shuswap) and Okanagan peoples held council. The Nlaka'pamux war leader tried to incite the assembled warriors to wipe out the white men once and for all, but the Camchin chief Cxpentlum (known commonly in English as Spintlum, or David Spintlum), had good relations with Governor James Douglas and argued for peaceful co-existence.

Snyder and Centras marched into the midst of the Nlaka'pamux war council undaunted; if they had known about the thousands of warriors watching from the surrounding mountainsides they might not have been so bold. As per native custom, they were given the right to speak, presumably speaking through translators, and told the assembled natives that if the war were to continue, white men by the thousands would come and occupy the country and destroy all the natives forever (true enough). In their own notes they presumed it was because they showed the natives their more-modern rifles (most natives, if they had firearms, had only muskets and carbines) and thought that this had persuaded them to make peace. In reality, the decision to make peace had already just been arrived at, as the native account has shown, but it is probable that the notion that it would be impossible to wipe out all white men helped persuade any chiefs sitting on the fence to take the side of the peace-maker Cxpentlum.

Six treaties were made that day, known as the Snyder Treaties, none of which has survived either in print or oral form, dealing with the co-existence in the Canyon and the working of the goldfields lining it (natives were the first to mine gold on the Thompson, and remained active miners throughout the rush).

..

No formal figures of the dead from the Fraser Canyon War exist, and much hyperbole has been made by both sides. Estimates of the white dead range from several dozen to several hundred or even thousands; some say the native casualties were extreme.

Just after the war parties' return to Yale, Governor Douglas (a Guyanese mulatto) and a contingent of Royal Engineers arrived to take control of what was feared to have been a situation that could easily have led to a war not only of extermination, but also of annexation.
That doesn't make any of it less racist, it just confirms that it also happened elsewhere.

It's ubiquitous, but I think it's quite important to put things into perspective, no?
Yes, perspective is important.

In brief, the contrast is of Canadian expansion intended and mostly practiced through relatively conciliatory methods, in opposition to the US broad intent and implementation of warfare and genocide.
 
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monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
I like Canada, I've always considered it to be the United States low grade moronic little brother. I'm glad that we do so much to protect you even when you don't know how much we have to do to keep the bad people away.
Sleep easy lil' Canadians, your brother is here to defend you.
 

slayernine

Senior member
Jul 23, 2007
895
0
71
slayernine.com
I like Canada, I've always considered it to be the United States low grade moronic little brother. I'm glad that we do so much to protect you even when you don't know how much we have to do to keep the bad people away.
Sleep easy lil' Canadians, your brother is here to defend you.

And I'll always think of America as my our big dumb brother who hit his head a few too many times playing football. Sure, we'll help you figure out this "economics thing" I know it's hard for you. :awe: