so Manifest Destiny is racist now?

[brianmanahan]

http://shine.yahoo.com/fashion/gap-pulls-manifest-destiny-t-shirt-gets-history-025900453.html

i always thought that manifest destiny was basically how the world worked up, at least up until the last 100 years or so

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Manifest Destiny was the idea that white Americans were owed the continent by divine providence and used as justification for driving American Indians and Mexicans from their lands. It's been viewed as racist ever since we started feeling guilty about that.

 

[brianmanahan]

Manifest Destiny was the idea that white Americans were owed the continent by divine providence and used as justification for driving American Indians and Mexicans from their lands. It's been viewed as racist ever since we started feeling guilty about that.

but everyone did that

europe and asia and africa and the middle east did it for millenia

 

[pelov]

but everyone did that

europe and asia and africa and the middle east did it for millenia

That doesn't make any of it less racist, it just confirms that it also happened elsewhere.

It's ubiquitous, but I think it's quite important to put things into perspective, no?

 

[brianmanahan]

That doesn't make any of it less racist, it just confirms that it also happened elsewhere.

It's ubiquitous, but I think it's quite important to put things into perspective, no?

its also quite important to stop insisting people feel bad for stuff that happened centuries ago

 

[akahoovy]

It's only racist because it's recent white history. People have been pillaging and raiding ever since someone first thought of taking someone else's stuff.

 

[brianmanahan]

It's only racist because it's recent white history. People have been pillaging and raiding ever since someone first thought of taking someone else's stuff.

exactly, which was a long freakin time ago

 

[akahoovy]

People feel right when they're angry, what can you do?

 

[pelov]

its also quite important to stop insisting people feel bad for stuff that happened centuries ago

I don't disagree, manifest destiny and the trail of tears have nothing to do with you nor I, thus we shouldn't have to feel bad about it. There are still lessons to be learned there. If you're going to claim a land the size of the US, you're going to have to kill quite a few natives.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

its also quite important to stop insisting people feel bad for stuff that happened centuries ago

Of course. But maybe it's not a great idea to put those ideas on a T-Shirt and then wonder why people are complaining...

 

[Matthiasa]

Some people are way to easily offended...

 

[Arkitech]

now?

lolz

 

[pelov]

Some people are way to easily offended...

Idunno, but I'd consider full on genocide to be a pretty touchy subject.

Manifest Destiny is essentially the same thing as "racial cleansing" during WW2, yet I'm pretty sure you wouldn't wear a T-shirt that said "How many would it take to fit in an ash tray?" with a picture of Holocaust victims behind a barbed wire fence. Yet for some reason, one of those sits just fine with you. I suspect it has to do with how the story was told to you when you were younger, because I can relate. In elementary and middle school, "Manifest Destiny" was just a bunch of horse-drawn carriages making their way West, convinced that God(s) were gifting them the entire country, from sea to shining sea, with absolutely no mention of the bloody conflicts along the way.

America's portrayal of it is much like the Turks denial of the Armenian genocides. It's sort of mentioned and you get a glimpse when you see those Native American "We can give you $10,000 tomorrow!" commercials on TV but nobody ever really talks about it.

I mean, we couldn't exactly establish a country in Africa for them to go back to. They weren't even from Africa! What would we call it? Indiana? The Capitol would be Harrisonia? That just sounds stupid.

 

[NesuD]

Has nothing to do whatsoever with race. It is simply a form of conquest. Race of the subjugated peoples is inconsequential. It would have occurred regardless what race of people were being displaced even had those people been primitive caucasians.

 

[Texashiker]

That doesn't make any of it less racist, it just confirms that it also happened elsewhere.

Its raciest to conquer a people?

I thought it was called other names, such as war.

 

[God Mode]

I equate it to Americanized imperialism. Nothing wrong with that as I want the US to succeed over all just like those from other nationalities putting their country ahead of all else.

 

[pelov]

Its raciest to conquer a people?

I thought it was called other names, such as war.

Conquering people then making it essentially national policy to wipe them out is pretty racist, yea.

I'm not debating that it's any different than any other conquering nation/tribe/people -- In fact, if you bothered to read my above posts I've already explained that, but it doesn't mean you get to play dumb and embrace the Disney version of history. For a long long time in the US, people weren't "equal" and it was even debatable whether certain races were even considered people at all.

 

[IronWing]

Manifest Destiny goes well beyond the conquest of what is now US territory. It has been and still remains the imperative of US policy around the world. Manifest Destiny is why the North fought the Civil War with the South. To abridge the Union was to deny God's mandate. It is why the US went to Viet Nam, Korea, Germany twice, Iraq, and is now waging a global war. We must maintain globl supremacy, it has been ordained by God, by reason, by the fates.

Folks not from the US would do well to understand that Manifest Destiny is a directive from our God, our ancestors, our fate and not a term of historical trivia.

^^ A bit strident perhaps but none the less this sense of absolute righteousness is engrained in our culture and our body politic.


Anyway, a Manifest Destiny t-shirt is just a more polite form of "America, F#$@ Yeah!"

 

[blankslate]

Didn't you get the memo?

 

[MisterJackson]

Damn, I want one of those shirts.

 

[edro]

Its raciest to conquer a people?

No, it's racist to label them savages/animals and conquer them because their lifestyle is inferior and archaic.

Racism is all about the thought behind the actions. (specifically, the thought that a race is inferior)

You can murder, rape, pillage, conquer... as long as you have a reason other than their race.

 

[IronWing]

No, it's racist to label them savages/animals and conquer them because their lifestyle is inferior and archaic.

I thought we just wanted their stuff.
And God told us we could have it.

 

[edro]

Has nothing to do whatsoever with race. It is simply a form of conquest. Race of the subjugated peoples is inconsequential. It would have occurred regardless what race of people were being displaced even had those people been primitive caucasians.

I agree.

What if they were technologically advanced Caucasians?
I think it really has to do with whether or not the aggressors think they CAN conquer.

 

[pelov]

I agree.

What if they were technologically advanced Caucasians?
I think it really has to do with whether or not the aggressors think they CAN conquer.

I'm pretty sure they weren't forcing vanillafaces to march the trail of tears. In fact, neither was the native Mexican population treated in the same manner after the conquest of Texas, nor were the Spanish who were native to Florida after the US acquired the remainder of what didn't belong to it.

I find it pretty comical, actually. What do people think happened to all the natives? Are they on Mars? In many ways they were treated far worse than the African slaves brought here yet that was pretty racist. At least the slaves were allowed to stick around, the natives were forced to pack up and move repeatedly and killed if they refused.

I'm pretty sure all of that was racist. Like I said, I love childish stories too but reality tends to far more accurate.

 

[Red Storm]

I'm pretty sure they weren't forcing vanillafaces to march the trail of tears. In fact, neither was the native Mexican population treated in the same manner after the conquest of Texas, nor were the Spanish who were native to Florida after the US acquired the remainder of what didn't belong to it.

I find it pretty comical, actually. What do people think happened to all the natives? Are they on Mars? In many ways they were treated far worse than the African slaves brought here yet that was pretty racist. At least the slaves were allowed to stick around, the natives were forced to pack up and move repeatedly and killed if they refused.

I'm pretty sure all of that was racist. Like I said, I love childish stories too but reality tends to far more accurate.

This.