So mad I could spit...

Jun 27, 2005
19,216
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Link
SAN FRANCISCO - A federal appeals court on Friday cut in half a $5 billion jury award for punitive damages against Exxon Mobil Corp. in the 1989 Valdez oil spill.

I'll spare you the rest. Basically the SC in 2003 said that punitive damages couldn't exceed 9 times general damages. The current punitive penalty against Exxon is about 17 times damages. The original judgement was $5 billion.

Bear in mind the accident happened 17 years ago and at the time the lawyers from Exxon stated (off the record of course) that everyone involved would die of old age before they paid a cent.

The whole thing is an effort to settle the case once and for all. But at what cost? Buncha bull sh!t if you ask me. Fvcking OJ Simpson justice. If you have the money to hire the right lawyers you can avoid justice. Makes me sick.

The ninth circuit can, once again, blow me.

 
Jun 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: Tab
Haven't they still not cleaned up the spill?

Nah... The area is mostly recovered. I was there last year. If you went there today you'd never know anything happened. If you dig down deep enough in some areas you can still find crude but the area is basically fine now.

Nature is surprisingly resilliant. But that doesn't negate Exxon's financial responsiblities. Pfft... this is just another diversion. Exxon will never pay this. They could reduce the damages to $10 and Exxon wouldn't pay. They have the resources to keep this in the courts until the end of time.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
You want REAL activist judges? Well there you go, highest profits ever in the history of a corporation in the USA ever past few quarters and they still want to shirk the fine for what they have done. :|

They have paid NOTHING YET for Valdez spill back in freakin 1989 and they will try still to get out of this halved fine -bet on it.
 

randym431

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2003
1,270
1
0
They just had a docu on pbs last week that had some of the spill. Wish I'd watched it closer. Said something like a lot of spill evidence is still there, if you look. And some type of fish that comes to the top of the waters has all but fled the area, causing great damage to the local economy. Still a huge issue in the area, still unresolved. And naturally, no money has actually come in to help the locals.
Hope pbs reruns this again. I have to watch it closer. But in short, the spill destroyed their economy of this local town/village. No money has actually been paid out since its still in the courts. And some wildlife (fish) have never returned. And to make it worse, exxon says "it isn?t so bad, the environment recovered just fine".
I guess theres a place in hell for these companies. Hope so.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
This may be of a higher profile, but I don't know why you guys are surprised, 9 times out of 10, he who has the best legal team wins, this is how justice works in America. I'm betting Exxon has hundreds of lawyers working on this case for them, the gov. or whoever the prosecutors are might have a dozen.

It comes down to dollars, with more money you can hire better expert witnesses, more of them, and pull every legal trick in the book until you either get something thrown out on a technicality or wear the other team down to the point where they will settle for what you want.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,839
2,625
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Conservatives should be happy, and proud of the so-called conservative judges that issued this ruling. After all, this frees up more money in corporate coffers for them-thus, in Bush's world, causing more job creation, thus benefiting us all.

A true conservative would say that there should be no punitive damages at all, since the actual loss caused by the malfeasance is (in theory) fully covered by the compensatory damages.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Exxon will never pay this.

They could reduce the damages to $10 and Exxon wouldn't pay.

They have the resources to keep this in the courts until the end of time.

Which is why I would revoke their Corporate Charter and stop them from doing business in the U.S.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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One of the ways in which corporations can evade the democratic process in part, is by playing different groups against one another, wheher that's cities, states, or nations.

For example, some companies, to break the power of labor organizing (its only real source of any leverage), build duplicate manufacturing facilities in various parts of the world, so that it can tell unions, 'you want to make any demands we don't like and threaten to strike? We can easily shut your plant down and moce elsewhere, so forget it.'

The phrase 'race to the bottom' is used for situations like this where competition forces 'bad results' that the rules of the game would otherwise not allow. Some of the biggest 'sellouts' to interest like sports teams or factories in the US happen when the owners make cities and states big against one another giving them tax breaks, spending tax dollars to build special roads for them, freedom from regulations against pollution or other public-demanded protections, and other concessions. It doesn't sound all that terrible on the surface, but the results are often pretty undesirable, crippling communities' ability to have the standards they want under an economic blackmail. With things like a sports team, at least any recipient has to be willing to take the final deal, but in undermining labor, the nations are left with little choice. If labor could organize on a global level to prevent this, it would work, but it's very difficult to have workers in Asia and Latin America, for example, organized together.

In the Supreme Court case on limiting punitive damages, one of the briefs filed by business explicitly argued that the court should consider that allowing higher punitive damages can harm the US's business interests as companies locate in places who give the public less legal rights. It was using the same sort of economic blackmail to argue, whatever the democratic process has created in the law, you had better do things our way, or you will pay financially, so rule this way regardless of the law, as you interpret it. Few of us probably think the US Supreme Court should be ruling based on that issue, reducing plaintiffs' rights not because of the law, but because of the effects the businesses say happen; that's the role of Congress to take into account. This is when the issue of justices like John Roberts and Samuel Alito, corporatist lawyers, becomes key, as they are primed to represent the corporate interests usually, and were largely appointed as a reward to the donors who want to take over the court on these issues.

Surprisingly, Scalia and Thomas are reportedly not on the side of the corporatists on this; they are two of the three in the current 4-3 split in favor of limiting punitive damages, so Alito and Roberts will either confirm or overturn that one-vote majority. I have a guess which is more likely.

I think it's a bad thing that there's the Federalist Society out there creating a biased ideology and infrastructure for steering our legal system in a certain unfortunate direction. It's their right, but that makes it in our interest to thwart them.

Exxon's behavior in all this has been contemptible - Greg Palast's first book has a good insider story on the situation, as he lived with the natives affected for a while, and found that Exxon has done a lot more wrong than the public is much aware of. I'm inclined to agree with dmcowen on revoking their charter.

And it's nice to see there's an issue whooz and I are on the same side of.
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,512
2
81
Exxon made $157,678,000,000 last year in PROFIT. Even a $5Billion fine is only a slap on the wrist for them.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
$157,678,000,000

The public could say to the companies who complain about high punitive damages, there's an easy way to avoid them: don't commit terribly wrong acts with gross disregard, the same way we tell a mugger who doesn't like his jail sentence not to do the crime.

But this is all about the power contest between the companies and the public, and $157,678,000,000 of one company's profit can afford to buy quite a bit of the political influence needed for advantage over the public.

When the presidential candidate has to raise $200,000,000, and one company has that much profit and does spend hundreds of millions to dozens of political groups to spread messages such as arguing against global warming, the danger for the corruption of the political system is clear, and amazing it's not far worse.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,493
14,879
146
The USA is quickly becoming less "of the people, for the people, and by the people", and more and more, "of the corporation, for the corporation, and by the corporation"...and it's happening in record time, under the current administration.
IMO, corporations should NOT be considered under the law to be "persons", but rather just a business entity, with NONE of the rights, and priveledges of "personhood"...While a corporation is made up of people, (owners, employees, etc.) it is NOT of and by itself, a person...
 

catnap1972

Platinum Member
Aug 10, 2000
2,607
0
76
Hell, I'm shocked they didn't find a way to get out from paying a cent.

(or are the lawyers still working on that?)
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: BoomerD
The USA is quickly becoming less "of the people, for the people, and by the people", and more and more, "of the corporation, for the corporation, and by the corporation"...and it's happening in record time, under the current administration.
IMO, corporations should NOT be considered under the law to be "persons", but rather just a business entity, with NONE of the rights, and priveledges of "personhood"...While a corporation is made up of people, (owners, employees, etc.) it is NOT of and by itself, a person...

Boomer, the history of the corporation moving from its status as something with clear obligations to the public good, to a 'legal person', are directly linked to the terrible era of the 'gilded age' between the industrial revolution and the reforms begun by the progressives after the turn of the century. The 1880's and 1890's saw some of the worst practices happen as our nation learned how human society could try to deal with these changes.

In the 1800's, the corporations fought hard in the court system to twist the 14th amendment meant to give rigths to former slaves into something for their benefit by defining corporations as legal people. The courts said no over and over, but they kept pouring money into the cause.

As so often when a tiny thing becomes huge, an extremely small issue to do with the taxation of fences for a railroad and a county led the way to the huge change where corporations now dominate the political system, taking the real power away from the people even while the people don't realize it because they are still pandered to in the marketing paid for by the corporate money, and they're still listened to on the unimportant issues which don't affect the corporate profits.

The amazing thing is that the legal issue was never actually decided by the courts in the corporations' favor - rather, it was an accident that got put into a decision by an apparent clerical error, whether intentional or not, and then it became precedent as it was cited over the years.

There's a great history of the issue of how corporations got to this point and the impact:

Thom Hartmann's "Unequal Protections: The Rise of Corporate Dominance and the Theft of Human Rights"

Buy it for 11 bucks here:

Buy the book or read more
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
On another note, punitive damages really shouldn't be awarded to the point wherethey are that much higher than the damage actually caused. This may be like the one instance where some people support such ridiculously high numbers, but the vast majority of the time when the punitive damages are so absurdly high it is not a good thing. Also, people need to realise that big cooperations are not just a group of millionaires, the vast majority of the workers are middle and lower class people, so its not like when you levy huge fines that you are jsut hurting the multimillionares, in reality its more likely to cost a bunch of middle class people their jobs than cost an executive their 20 million dollar bonus.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
BrownTowm, your point is well taken that punitive damages are not something to be done lightly. But the courts are the only check on some abusive behaviors, and we cannot let corporations use well-paid lawyers for sob stories to remove the incentives they provide for corporations to do the right thing.

It's always easy to see the tragedy on both sides of these situations - the point is that we need to pressure the corporations not to do the wrongs, and avoid the problem.

A lot of what works great in society does so because the threat of these punishments has had the effect it's supposed to.

You are probably aware that sometimes corporations can be pretty cold-blooded as they calculate the costs of spending more to avoid harming people versus the cost of the lawsuits if they do hurt the people; we need to keep those cold calculations going the right way.

The Exxon Valdeez situation included Exxon making some bad choices directly based on saving dollars for the legally required preperations to prevent this sort of disaster. There's nothing wrong with the punitive damages being of a size to teach them a lesson, in the only language they listen to.

BTW, don't blame the ninth circuit for doing as the Supremes directed. They are the most overturned circuit in the country already, IIRC, trying to do the right thing.
 
Jun 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: catnap1972
Hell, I'm shocked they didn't find a way to get out from paying a cent.

(or are the lawyers still working on that?)

They're still working on it. Considering the time-value of money, the ROI on $5 billion will keep an army of lawyers employed until the sun explodes.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Exxon will never pay this.

They could reduce the damages to $10 and Exxon wouldn't pay.

They have the resources to keep this in the courts until the end of time.

Which is why I would revoke their Corporate Charter and stop them from doing business in the U.S.

That way your fantasy of $5/gallon and an economic meltdown could come true!
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Link
SAN FRANCISCO - A federal appeals court on Friday cut in half a $5 billion jury award for punitive damages against Exxon Mobil Corp. in the 1989 Valdez oil spill.

I'll spare you the rest. Basically the SC in 2003 said that punitive damages couldn't exceed 9 times general damages. The current punitive penalty against Exxon is about 17 times damages. The original judgement was $5 billion.

Bear in mind the accident happened 17 years ago and at the time the lawyers from Exxon stated (off the record of course) that everyone involved would die of old age before they paid a cent.

The whole thing is an effort to settle the case once and for all. But at what cost? Buncha bull sh!t if you ask me. Fvcking OJ Simpson justice. If you have the money to hire the right lawyers you can avoid justice. Makes me sick.

The ninth circuit can, once again, blow me.

Yet you vigoursly defend the compensation of Exxon's ex-CEO who retired with a $400 million dollar retirement package (and a salary of $50 million at the time) because they "earn" it. I guess it depends on whose bull is being gored.

Hey. this is why the big boy's get such outrageous compensation. It's not because of their hard work or vision, it's because of their political connections to get crap like this pushed thru and using those connections to get inside information. Why do you think these CEO's can come in, screw up a company and then get a big retirement/golden parachute.

Some people like to call it the "good ole boy network", I like to call it the "country club syndrome".

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: BoomerD
The USA is quickly becoming less "of the people, for the people, and by the people", and more and more, "of the corporation, for the corporation, and by the corporation"...and it's happening in record time, under the current administration.

IMO, corporations should NOT be considered under the law to be "persons", but rather just a business entity, with NONE of the rights, and priveledges of "personhood"...

While a corporation is made up of people, (owners, employees, etc.) it is NOT of and by itself, a person...

Bolded and nominated for best poignant post of 2006. :thumbsup:
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,216
1
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Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Link
SAN FRANCISCO - A federal appeals court on Friday cut in half a $5 billion jury award for punitive damages against Exxon Mobil Corp. in the 1989 Valdez oil spill.

I'll spare you the rest. Basically the SC in 2003 said that punitive damages couldn't exceed 9 times general damages. The current punitive penalty against Exxon is about 17 times damages. The original judgement was $5 billion.

Bear in mind the accident happened 17 years ago and at the time the lawyers from Exxon stated (off the record of course) that everyone involved would die of old age before they paid a cent.

The whole thing is an effort to settle the case once and for all. But at what cost? Buncha bull sh!t if you ask me. Fvcking OJ Simpson justice. If you have the money to hire the right lawyers you can avoid justice. Makes me sick.

The ninth circuit can, once again, blow me.

Yet you vigoursly defend the compensation of Exxon's ex-CEO who retired with a $400 million dollar retirement package (and a salary of $50 million at the time) because they "earn" it. I guess it depends on whose bull is being gored.

Hey. this is why the big boy's get such outrageous compensation. It's not because of their hard work or vision, it's because of their political connections to get crap like this pushed thru and using those connections to get inside information. Why do you think these CEO's can come in, screw up a company and then get a big retirement/golden parachute.

Some people like to call it the "good ole boy network", I like to call it the "country club syndrome".

:roll: What does their pay have to do with the lawsuit? Hmm... Nothing. The awarded damages are not related in any way to the value of the company or its profitability. They were assigned by a jury as punishment for Exxon's negligence.

While I strongly disagree with the way they are handling this issue, the lawsuit does not change the fact that the company itself is clearing record profits. When a company makes money, the people in charge make money.

Don't try to confuse the two issues.
 

operaman1

Senior member
Mar 21, 2004
570
0
76
Until corporate welfare is ended this will continue. When campaign finance reform happens and the rich aren't in charge of who gets to run to begin with then the people will get real choices and real change can happen in government.

With pork barrel spending at an all time high, and politicians constantly maneuvering for more money to run for reelection Democrat or Republican is a relative term.

As it stands everything is run by the rich guy. And there really is no justification for the compensation CEO s are receiving in America. It is utterly ridiculous. Compared to their European counterparts it is a joke.

As to the topic at hand, the fact Exxon has not and probably will not pay for the damage they caused is a travesty. In the end WE the taxpayers flip the bill and the politicians from BOTH PARTIES turn a blind eye.