So it seems ATI really has the upper hand in AA implementation and quality with the x1800s...

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Pabster
How can you judge the IQ or AA/AF implementation of a card that isn't even available for purchase?

The X1800X:'s are avail MANY places, but UNDER msrp. Please dont spread incorrect information.

The simple fact is, ATi has better IQ overall, and MUCH better AF.

Oh really? Show me where I can buy an X1800XT then. I'm waiting...

We know you're an ATi fanboy but don't spread FUD.

i don't believe we are speaking specifically of xt's; rather the x10 series in general -- there are some xl's available, tho i'd hardly say they were abundant; looks a bit like a limted release with only a few select vendors..

 

[Pocatello]

The GF 7800GT price is dropping very fast, it's going to hard for people to pay $100 or more for the Radeon X1800XL.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Pabster
How can you judge the IQ or AA/AF implementation of a card that isn't even available for purchase?

The X1800X:'s are avail MANY places, but UNDER msrp. Please dont spread incorrect information.

The simple fact is, ATi has better IQ overall, and MUCH better AF.

Oh really? Show me where I can buy an X1800XT then. I'm waiting...

We know you're an ATi fanboy but don't spread FUD.

Please read the post before replying. The poster never once said the XT, and the person I quoted didnt either. I never said XT. The topic says X1800's, that includes the XL, which is avail, and for under MSRP. The card in which I was speaking of.

Please dont put words in my mouth again, thanks.

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Pabster
How can you judge the IQ or AA/AF implementation of a card that isn't even available for purchase?

The X1800XL's are avail MANY places, but UNDER msrp. Please dont spread incorrect information.

The simple fact is, ATi has better IQ overall, and MUCH better AF.

how is something subjective considered "fact"? actually, seemed to me reading the r520 reviews that nvidia actually displayed a more accurate image than ati...

isn't it rather hypocritical to demand one doesn't spread "incorrect information" in the same breath misinformation is being spread?

Its not an opinion that ATi has better AF. Its represented in hows its supposed to be done. Take this pic for an example. It is very clear that the side of the wall, if filtered more, and farther down. Its also very clear that the fence, and catwalk are much better rendered. You can disagree all you want, and claim that NV's is as good, or better, but you would be wrong. ATi's image is much closer to how its supposed to be, which makes it better.

Originally posted by: Pocatello
The GF 7800GT price is dropping very fast, it's going to hard for people to pay $100 or more for the Radeon X1800XL.

Dont forget to mention that the XL's price is dropping very fast $40 in less than a week. Mybe it will equal the GT's price, maybe not.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Pabster
How can you judge the IQ or AA/AF implementation of a card that isn't even available for purchase?

The X1800X:'s are avail MANY places, but UNDER msrp. Please dont spread incorrect information.

The simple fact is, ATi has better IQ overall, and MUCH better AF.

DO tell me where i can buy these things.

I will admit that ATI's AA (with the exception of Nvidias 8xS mode) is superior in all aspects. Their AF is most definitely not MUCH superior. AFAIK it is on par, but in no way is it leaps and bounds ahead.

-Kevin

 

[Ackmed]

XL are available MANY places. Why cant people understand that? I never said the XT was avail. The poster never mentioned XT's in his post. He clearly states the X1800 series, as does the link he dropped. Its pretty clear that I had a typo in "X1800X:'s" where : = L.

Based on the screenshot I left, how can you even say NV's AF is on par? The picture doesnt lie.

 

[GML3G0]

Ummm... yea...

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: GML3G0
Ummm... yea...

Somehow i doubt AF is on in the second pic. Even my 5900XT (as pitiful as it is) Filtering goes MUCH farther than that. I think someone is just trying to mess around.

If their AF was that bad, dont you think you would see reviewers jumping all over it!?!

Sorry but no.

As for the XL. Well yeah we never said the XL wasn't available . However it is in certain stores at VERY limited quantities. Furthermore, the XL doesn't offer anything really new, except that it is ATI. WHile the XT really competes and i dare say pulls ahead overall when compared to the GTX, the 7800GT simply trumps the XL in all categories. Not using that as an excuse or anything, but the real power is behind the XT.

-Kevin

-Kevin

 

[crazydingo]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: GML3G0
Ummm... yea...

Somehow i doubt AF is on in the second pic. Even my 5900XT (as pitiful as it is) Filtering goes MUCH farther than that. I think someone is just trying to mess around.

If their AF was that bad, dont you think you would see reviewers jumping all over it!?!

Sorry but no.

-Kevin

Hard|OCP is messing around with us?
http://hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTEyODI4MDE0MEFCVGlYSnBoRUNfOF8xMl9sLmpwZw==
http://hardocp.com/article.html?art=ODIyLDg=

*Predicts that Hard|OCP isnt trust worthy anymore*

 

[Tanclearas]

I think the "fps is king" comment is not entirely accurate.

I purchased a 7800GTX despite only having an LCD capable of 1280 x 1024 specifically so I could have both decent frame rates and all the card's features enabled. If you honestly only care about frame rates, why not continue playing UT2K4/Q3/RtCW/[insert favourite game of yesteryear] for the rest of time? You're going to get wicked frame rates on either Nvidia's 6800 series or ATI's X800 (12p+) series cards anyway.

I can run at my monitor's max resolution, with options set pretty high (if not max) on new games, 4X TrSSAA set in the driver, and still get decent frame rates. Sadly, I know dug777's pain with respect to shortcuts companies make in IQ just to gain a few more points/frames in popular benchmarks. When the game I'm playing is already getting more than acceptable frame rates, why should I have to see shadows that look like a Space Invader is sneaking up behind me?

I have to agree that it really seems like ATI focused on IQ this round. Specifically, minimizing the performance impact of the high IQ settings. However, I still don't plan on switching. I'll stick with what I've got unless a really good opportunity to switch comes up. I also have to consider that my current motherboard/video card combination at least gives me the option of going SLI at some point.

 

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: GML3G0
Ummm... yea...

Somehow i doubt AF is on in the second pic. Even my 5900XT (as pitiful as it is) Filtering goes MUCH farther than that. I think someone is just trying to mess around.

If their AF was that bad, dont you think you would see reviewers jumping all over it!?!

Sorry but no.

As for the XL. Well yeah we never said the XL wasn't available . However it is in certain stores at VERY limited quantities. Furthermore, the XL doesn't offer anything really new, except that it is ATI. WHile the XT really competes and i dare say pulls ahead overall when compared to the GTX, the 7800GT simply trumps the XL in all categories. Not using that as an excuse or anything, but the real power is behind the XT.

-Kevin

-Kevin

Actually, when I compare these:
http://hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTEyODI4MDE0MEFCVGlYSnBoRUNfOF8xMl9sLmpwZw==

http://hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTEyODI4MDE0MEFCVGlYSnBoRUNfOF8xMF9sLmpwZw==

http://hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTEyODI4MDE0MEFCVGlYSnBoRUNfOF84X2wuanBn

It looks like the 16X AF is working on the 7800, because it's better than the no optimizations, and trilinear filtering pics...

 

[imported_Rampage]

Originally posted by: GML3G0
Ummm... yea...

Originally posted by: southpawuni
We want FPS again because there are very intensive games coming out now. Takes both. ATI has concentrated a bit too much on AA/AF and not enough on superior speed/"SLI"/heat/power/single slot solutions IMO.
The availability/price/corporate fraud thing was just the extra smack in the face.

IMO, ATI's last remaining advantage lies in its AF PERFORMANCE.. not quality.. people arent so concerned with minute differences that when you are playing a game at 80FPS that you need to take screenshots and do side-by-side comparisons to see the difference.
People realized that was just ridiculous, and pointless. Esp as FPS are still the dominate genre.
For me, ATI's advantage doesnt outweigh all of Nvidia's to warrant purchase. I think you'll see that most people will agree with me again this round when we find out more Valve system survey statistics come out about a year after the X1K launch.

2sense.

It would be absolutely ridiculous to buy a X1K based off of that very small, minute difference in AA/AF quality and give up all the Nvidia advantages of drivers/SLI/heat/power/single slot solution/price/availablility.

I think at this point, any openminded unbiased person would admit the Nvidia solutions are superior to ATI.

I'll give ATI superior AA/AF though, although slightly and it really doesnt bring enough to the table to merit a purchase over a competing Nvidia solution.
And the AA quality really means a whole lot less considering FPS are the dominant genre today.

Welp, I'm off to play my DVD special edition of Quake 4 online!

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: Tanclearas
I think the "fps is king" comment is not entirely accurate.

I purchased a 7800GTX despite only having an LCD capable of 1280 x 1024 specifically so I could have both decent frame rates and all the card's features enabled. If you honestly only care about frame rates, why not continue playing UT2K4/Q3/RtCW/[insert favourite game of yesteryear] for the rest of time? You're going to get wicked frame rates on either Nvidia's 6800 series or ATI's X800 (12p+) series cards anyway.

I can run at my monitor's max resolution, with options set pretty high (if not max) on new games, 4X TrSSAA set in the driver, and still get decent frame rates. Sadly, I know dug777's pain with respect to shortcuts companies make in IQ just to gain a few more points/frames in popular benchmarks. When the game I'm playing is already getting more than acceptable frame rates, why should I have to see shadows that look like a Space Invader is sneaking up behind me?

I have to agree that it really seems like ATI focused on IQ this round. Specifically, minimizing the performance impact of the high IQ settings. However, I still don't plan on switching. I'll stick with what I've got unless a really good opportunity to switch comes up. I also have to consider that my current motherboard/video card combination at least gives me the option of going SLI at some point.

:laugh: if nvidia don't fix that soon i'm putting that quote in my sig

 

[BFG10K]

give up all the Nvidia advantages of drivers

That one is debatable; I've had far more issues with my 6800U than with my X800 XL.

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

give up all the Nvidia advantages of drivers

That one is debatable; I've had far more issues with my 6800U than with my X800 XL.

i've had considerably more problems with my nvidia drivers than with catalyst personally (went from 9800 pro to 6600GT a month or so back) too.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Its not an opinion that ATi has better AF. Its represented in hows its supposed to be done. Take this pic for an example. It is very clear that the side of the wall, if filtered more, and farther down. Its also very clear that the fence, and catwalk are much better rendered. You can disagree all you want, and claim that NV's is as good, or better, but you would be wrong. ATi's image is much closer to how its supposed to be, which makes it better.

ahh.. my bad; i was still talking aa as in the subject and in my prior post. i missed that you changed the discussion to AF.

yes, i'd agree that in this series, ati's AF implementation is superior. what i do find humerous is that it didn't mean much back when nvidia's was far superior, yet now that the roles are reversed it's somehow a monumental issue.

that being said, while i prefer ati's implementation in this generation, it's simply something which may lean my buying decision towards ati, however there are more important factors i would consider.

 

[imported_Rampage]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

give up all the Nvidia advantages of drivers

That one is debatable; I've had far more issues with my 6800U than with my X800 XL.

And what do you think of the rest of my arguement?

It would be absolutely ridiculous to buy a X1K based off of that very small, minute difference in AA/AF quality and give up all the Nvidia advantages of drivers/SLI/heat/power/single slot solution/price/availablility.

I think at this point, any openminded unbiased person would admit the Nvidia solutions are superior to ATI.

I'll give ATI superior AA/AF though, although slightly and it really doesnt bring enough to the table to merit a purchase over a competing Nvidia solution.
And the AA quality really means a whole lot less considering FPS are the dominant genre today.

I disagree on drivers wholeheartedly as when you examine Linux, that is the nail in the coffin. Windows you could debate (even tho its well known ATI drops support for their older cards much earlier than Nvidia, and for me while one could niggle about the rest of the details.. that support dropping is the nail in the coffin on the Windows side).

Those are the damning points for ATI's driver support for me.

I'm honestly interested in what you think of the rest of my post and my "nails" as you are very knowledgable.. I'd just have to hear a very persuasive and fact-filled argument to convince me otherwise from my conclusions.

I only am seeking the truth here. I'm I'm wrong, please do inform me as to why.

PS. This isnt an opportunity for one of the trolls to jump in and post something sarcastic. :disgust:
Lets get some real debate here.
Not ATI fanboys whose feelings are hurt that the 9700 Pro is no longer king of the hill.

 

[Rock Hydra]

I used to have problems with my Catalyst Drivers, then I switched ot nVIDIA, not really having a problem, except for the newest version with a buttload of texture corruption and whatnot.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Even my 5900XT (as pitiful as it is) Filtering goes MUCH farther than that.

Your 5900XT has vastly superior AF then a 7800GTX OC/Extreme Edition running in SLI- that is the unfortunate reality.

I think at this point, any openminded unbiased person would admit the Nvidia solutions are superior to ATI.

No, nVidia's 'AF' is a sickeningly pathetic joke- as bad as ATi's low quality modes. Considering AF deals with the overwhelming majority of frames ever rendered on screen, nV loses, by a landslide, for anyone that cares in the slightest about IQ.

give up all the Nvidia advantages of drivers

It is true that that is a major issue and one ATi has utterly failed on without question. Their drivers are significantly inferior, and that is something that they must address. Unfortunately you have the fanatics without a hint of thought in their brain that just deny, deny, deny. They apologize and lie for ATi and since they continue to do it, it isn't going to get any better.

what i do find humerous is that it didn't mean much back when nvidia's was far superior, yet now that the roles are reversed it's somehow a monumental issue.

Noone listened to me back then- I was most certainly extremely vocal about the rapid decline in IQ ATi started with the Radeon series- they ended up dragging the entire industry down with their 'framerate first- who cares how ugly it is' mentality. It is refreshing to see that they realize that were absolutely wrong and are now making a solid effort to making progress on the IQ front.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: Tanclearas
I think the "fps is king" comment is not entirely accurate.

I purchased a 7800GTX despite only having an LCD capable of 1280 x 1024 specifically so I could have both decent frame rates and all the card's features enabled.

Sorry, I was imprecise. I meant to say IQ enhancements. Although AA and AF are fast becoming standard at the high end, they're still optional elsewhere, and (AFAIK) usually not enabled by default via a game's autoconfig.

But I still think those of us who know a bit about video cards will tweak with an ideal framerate in mind, rather than an ideal IQ (similar to how HOCP and Bit-tech review video cards).

 

[Paratus]

Usually for single player you aim for the mimimum framerate you can enjoy with as much eye candy on as possible.

At least thats what I do.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: southpawuni
We want FPS again because there are very intensive games coming out now. Takes both. ATI has concentrated a bit too much on AA/AF and not enough on superior speed/"SLI"/heat/power/single slot solutions IMO.
The availability/price/corporate fraud thing was just the extra smack in the face.

IMO, ATI's last remaining advantage lies in its AF PERFORMANCE.. not quality.. people arent so concerned with minute differences that when you are playing a game at 80FPS that you need to take screenshots and do side-by-side comparisons to see the difference.
People realized that was just ridiculous, and pointless. Esp as FPS are still the dominate genre.
For me, ATI's advantage doesnt outweigh all of Nvidia's to warrant purchase. I think you'll see that most people will agree with me again this round when we find out more Valve system survey statistics come out about a year after the X1K launch.

2sense.

Riiiiight... speak for yourself there

I think Nv has concentrated too much on performance, and has too many times sacrificed IQ to gain even more performance. I want good performance, but when the card cant even render the scene correctly, with the likes of texture shimmering and blocky shadows, then the performance aspect doesnt seem so impressive anymore.

IMO, Nv's last remaining adventage is that you can buy their cards for under MSRP, but you cant buy the new XT. When the XT becomes available, I'd like to see who's gonna instead buy a card that has worse IQ, less features, half the memory and worse overall performance just because it's some $100 cheaper than the XT. Looks like Nv plans to release a 512mb gtx/ultra to compete, and I bet that's gonna cost at least as much as the XT, but will still have less features and worse IQ. Not exactly a bargain either.

And for IQ issues, it doesnt matter if it's 80 fps or 300 fps, it's still 80 fps of blurry textures, blocky shadows, and shimmering. Some of these effects are more noticeable in motion than in screenshots. For example, I can still notice some texture shimmering and blurring on my x800 even when I'm not looking for it - I dont even want to know how much worse it is on the gf7800.

 

[flexy]

Originally posted by: Paratus
Usually for single player you aim for the mimimum framerate you can enjoy with as much eye candy on as possible.

At least thats what I do.

i never understood people who spend $400/$500 on a card and then "admit" that they dont even use AA because the FPS are so important to them.

I own a X850XT and (as example) play HL2M with 1360x1024, all settings at max with 6xAA and 16xAF (Quality forced)...and speed/fps NEVER ever is an issue. It cannot be smoother even with 6xAA and all the IQ settings.

Same with D3 - D3 is a bit "slower", ok, i dont use D3 in multiplayer...but also run this at 4xAA and all settings at max and its very playable.

That's why i have such a hard time "legitmating" (for me) eg. to get a X1800...the ONLY reason i would be interested in those new cards is that i COULD enable the new adaptive antialiasing modes too and PROBABLY get much less a performance hit than i have with the X850XT.

Its just an abstruse and bizarre thought for me to get a high-end card and disable AA and everything just to get 300+ FPS....like it matters...

Btw. with my 6xAA settings and running fraps in HL2 i see frame rates varying from 70,80,90, 100ish, 120ish...depends on scene....would have to double check my FPS again...but anyway WAY ABOVE what i need to get good gameplay and frag advantage.

 

[nRollo]

You know what's hilarious about this?

Back in the days of the 5800/5900 I used to post the AF test wheel all the time, when the situation was reversed.

And you know what?

The ATI Defense League used to post in reply,"Jesus, not the damn AF wheel again Rollo! You don't see such things in a game!"

My guess is some of the people here saying this AF difference is the end of civilization were among them.

Heh- the more things change, the more they stay the same.

BTW- should I start posting "Not those AF wheels again!"? Nah, guess not.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: southpawuni
We want FPS again because there are very intensive games coming out now. Takes both. ATI has concentrated a bit too much on AA/AF and not enough on superior speed/"SLI"/heat/power/single slot solutions IMO.
The availability/price/corporate fraud thing was just the extra smack in the face.

IMO, ATI's last remaining advantage lies in its AF PERFORMANCE.. not quality.. people arent so concerned with minute differences that when you are playing a game at 80FPS that you need to take screenshots and do side-by-side comparisons to see the difference.
People realized that was just ridiculous, and pointless. Esp as FPS are still the dominate genre.
For me, ATI's advantage doesnt outweigh all of Nvidia's to warrant purchase. I think you'll see that most people will agree with me again this round when we find out more Valve system survey statistics come out about a year after the X1K launch.

2sense.

Riiiiight... speak for yourself there

I think Nv has concentrated too much on performance, and has too many times sacrificed IQ to gain even more performance. I want good performance, but when the card cant even render the scene correctly, with the likes of texture shimmering and blocky shadows, then the performance aspect doesnt seem so impressive anymore.

IMO, Nv's last remaining adventage is that you can buy their cards for under MSRP, but you cant buy the new XT. When the XT becomes available, I'd like to see who's gonna instead buy a card that has worse IQ, less features, half the memory and worse overall performance just because it's some $100 cheaper than the XT. Looks like Nv plans to release a 512mb gtx/ultra to compete, and I bet that's gonna cost at least as much as the XT, but will still have less features and worse IQ. Not exactly a bargain either.

And for IQ issues, it doesnt matter if it's 80 fps or 300 fps, it's still 80 fps of blurry textures, blocky shadows, and shimmering. Some of these effects are more noticeable in motion than in screenshots. For example, I can still notice some texture shimmering and blurring on my x800 even when I'm not looking for it - I dont even want to know how much worse it is on the gf7800.

All cards have their compromises Munky. The interesting part will be when some people actually get some X1800XTs what they'll find.

It's easy to say "Mystery Card X is the clear winner" when no one has them, but things are already starting to come to light like the heat and noise issue. What's next I wonder?

 

[imported_Rampage]

I thought I made it very clear I was speaking for myself in my post. I think anyone that reads it can quite clearly see that from my verbage I'm speaking for myself.

Some people will do anythign to degrade someone who says anythign honest and truthful about ATI.

I'm just going to start posting that oversized dual slot cards with extreme power consumption and massive heat are the way to go because they have AA quality that is unmatched.. its still a 15 pound card that no one wants.. and the Valve surveys will show that in due time..

but they rule all. :disgust: