So it seems ATI really has the upper hand in AA implementation and quality with the x1800s...

[dug777]

I reread an article on the x1xxx series earlier today and this paragraph jumped out at me...

As if all of these enhancements weren't enough to top off ATI's already industry leading antialiasing (NVIDIA's grid aligned sample patterns just can't touch ATI's fully programmable sample patterns in quality), ATI has also vastly improved antialiasing performance with the X1000 generation of hardware. Neither NVIDIA nor previous generation ATI hardware can match the minimal performance hit the X1000 series incurs when enabling standard AA.

from our very own AT: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2552&p=6

A few years ago everyone was screaming blue murder about IQ quality, but now we seem to be fixated with fps above all else, is this a fair comment? I guess the the FX series was in a similar situation with it's superior AF (that i noticed has been reintroduced with the Area Anisotropic filtering in the x1800s), but it was dogged by, well, being a dog performance wise, certainly the x1800xl and xt won't suffer from this when they hit the market in numbers, and then i'm hoping we'll see a refocusing on the importance of IQ as well as fps in this game...

(and somewhat off on a tangent but goddamit i WISH nvidia would fix the farcry shadow bug )

 

[Munky]

I certainly think the AF and AA improvements are a nice bonus to the x1k series. But probably because some people are pissed off that you cant buy most of the x1k cards yet, and are so obsessed with the gf7800 cards, they tend to ignore the IQ issues of these cards and just focus on performance.

 

[Creig]

Maybe once the X1000 cards are out in volume IQ will be a deciding factor. But for now, the 7800 series has the upper hand with availability and price.

 

[Pabster]

How can you judge the IQ or AA/AF implementation of a card that isn't even available for purchase?

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: Pabster
How can you judge the IQ or AA/AF implementation of a card that isn't even available for purchase?

i ASSUME AT had a review sample for that mate, thats how they judged it But i would assume (again) that the IQ would exactly the same for the x800xt and xl anyway...

EDIT: looking here you can buy a x1800xl http://labs.anandtech.com/search.php?q=x1800 now, and notice i said x1800s in my OP (meaning the series not just the xt)

 

[CaiNaM]

and the ati cannot touch nvidia's 8xsaa (performance 'hit' notwithstanding)..

i think ati is better at 2x and 4x, and their 6x while not as good as nv's 8xsaa, also doesn't suffer the performance loss that nv's 8x does. otho the reviews/sshots i've seen comparing the two, nv's transparency aa is better looking than ati's adaptive aa.

imo the iq issue is not being ignored, rather the differences are subtle (fanboys notwithstanding), so the focus tends to be on other things.

 

[Madellga]

Dug, I would add to that the shimmering issue with the 7800 series.

The game I can notice the shimmering most is World of Warcraft. It is everywhere: floor, walls, vegetation, landscape. I tried the 78.03 driver, it improves it but there is still some shimmering.

Yesterday I got hold of a 9800Pro AGP and installed it on my lanbox. I installed World of Warcraft and a after a 250mb patch, I launched the game with all settings maxed out at 1280x1024. Guess what: no shimmering !

I really missed in all X1800 reviews a commentary about the shimmering. I would like to know if the new ATI is plagued by this issue or continued with the good quality IQ from the previous generations.

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
and the ati cannot touch nvidia's 8xsaa (performance 'hit' notwithstanding)..

i think ati is better at 2x and 4x, and their 6x while not as good as nv's 8xsaa, also doesn't suffer the performance loss that nv's 8x does. otho the reviews/sshots i've seen comparing the two, nv's transparency aa is better looking than ati's adaptive aa.

imo the iq issue is not being ignored, rather the differences are subtle (fanboys notwithstanding), so the focus tends to be on other things.

i'd respectfully disagree with you in transparency vx adaptive call, looking at the comparison on that page i linked to in the OP at least...but that really is a matter of opionion i guess.

EDIT: and on the iq point and looking at my little plea at the bottom of my OP, not even the most rabid nvidia fanboy could call the shadow iq difference in farcry 'subtle'

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Pabster
How can you judge the IQ or AA/AF implementation of a card that isn't even available for purchase?

from the reviewers' samples

and when they ship in volume in a few weeks, there will be many more comparisons and you will get [even] more defensive.

:roll:

 

[CP5670]

I wish I could actually see this shimmering in person in the games I play. I'm usually pretty sensitive to stuff like that and can notice a little bit of AF texturing warping in some games with my current card unless HQ is enabled, which comes with a performance hit. I am probably going to grab the 7800 refresh part at the end of the year (ultra or whatever), but this kind of stuff would affect my decision.

 

[Pete]

Framerate is king, IQ is next in line. It's always been thus. Voodoo was a breakout b/c it both improved IQ (thanks to texture filtering--take a look at Quake/GL and HL in both SW and HW modes) and boosted framerates, but, after that, nicer IQ came at the cost of framerate. Voodoo 5 had incredibly nice AA, but it came at an incredible cost: 2x halved your framerate, 4x quartered it. MSAA and AF do a decent job of subbing for SSAA, tho, and it's a tradeoff ppl are willing to make b/c there's no point in awesome IQ at crawling framerates.

As for the bolded AA quote, AFAIK, both NV and ATI use very similar subsample patterns for 2x and 4x (they're basically mirrors of each other). The big difference in those modes is probably GC (and you can enable that on NV h/w since GF6, no?). Obviously nV doesn't have an MSAA answer to ATI's 6x sparse sample mode, and they won't until they increase their subsample grid. Equally obvious is that their 8xS mode should look better overall b/c the SSAA part touches the whole screen, whereas MSAA--even combined with TAA--only touches a fraction of the screen (leaving [AFAIK] normal/specular maps and pixel shaders to sparkle away).

Edit: Heh, you can see the mirror image of the sample patterns pretty clearly in the fence in that AT page: ATI does slightly better with +45 deg angles, and NV with -45.

Edit for CP: You can tell from these shots that the 7800 will sparkle more than the X1800 because of the (more) evident moire pattern on the floor.

 

[AmdInside]

I don't know. I wonder if people just expect ATI to just have better AA or something. I personally prefer NVIDIA's. ATI's looks much software than NVIDIA's and coming from a photography field, I don't like softness.

 

[nRollo]

So it seems ATI really has the upper hand in AA implementation and quality with the x1800s...
Topic Summary: so why has peoples focus come away from IQ these days?

I think we all got caught up in the "wanting to buy a video card that didn't have a feature set we bought back in 2002 before 2005 ended" craze Dug.

Of course, some of us wanted run multiple cards without dongles, unavailable motherboards, master/slave cards and such as well, so it made the decision pretty easy.



On a more serious note, the thing is, the IQ of both cards is good, and unless you put identical monitors next to each other, with the cards set on the same settings, and scrutinize the picture, you don't really notice the difference.

Things like this make for good discussions in forums, have small impact in use.

 

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: Rollo

So it seems ATI really has the upper hand in AA implementation and quality with the x1800s...
Topic Summary: so why has peoples focus come away from IQ these days?

I think we all got caught up in the "wanting to buy a video card that didn't have a feature set we bought back in 2002 before 2005 ended" craze Dug.

Of course, some of us wanted run multiple cards without dongles, unavailable motherboards, master/slave cards and such as well, so it made the decision pretty easy.



On a more serious note, the thing is, the IQ of both cards is good, and unless you put identical monitors next to each other, with the cards set on the same settings, and scrutinize the picture, you don't really notice the difference.

Things like this make for good discussions in forums, have small impact in use.

except shimmering.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Pete

Framerate is king, IQ is next in line. It's always been thus.

To a point. But to me, once framerates get high enough for smooth gameplay at the user's preferred resolution, then IQ becomes more important than additional FPS.

 

[BenSkywalker]

I guess the the FX series was in a similar situation with it's superior AF (that i noticed has been reintroduced with the Area Anisotropic filtering in the x1800s), but it was dogged by, well, being a dog performance wise, certainly the x1800xl and xt won't suffer from this when they hit the market in numbers, and then i'm hoping we'll see a refocusing on the importance of IQ as well as fps in this game...

This is why I intend on picking up a R1800 of some flavor in the future- but right now there really is an enormous rift in the price/performance ratio of the parts between ATi and nVidia. The 1800xl loses at least as often as it wins against the 7800GT which if you were comparing like priced parts the IQ edge could sway a good deal of buyers, but ATM the 1800xl is ~40% more then what you can pick up a 7800GT for. That is not remotely competitive.

Looking at the 1800xt the MSRP- which is all we have to go by, is ~$100 more then the price of a 7800GTX and what's worse only about $50 less then a 7800GT SLI setup ATM. Unlike the the days of the NV3x when nVidia was often less expensive then ATi, the current situation leaves them significantly more expensive and in the case of the xl also overall quite a bit slower.

At this point I'm waiting for a few things, a solid Crossfire mobo, Master cards and reasonable prices on the 1800 series before I make a move. It is one thing to care enough to sacrifice performance- I have no problem doing that, but I also am not going to pay hundreds too much due to impatience

You won't find much sympathy on these forums- next to noone cares at all about IQ- only posturing for their favorite company. This has been the case for a long time now, actually, since these forums have been here and earlier. You will get the counter argument that the higher performance the part offers the higher quality settings you can use, so that somewhat offsets the base IQ argument(which certainly holds some truth) but overall people just don't care about IQ.

 

[ZobarStyl]

Originally posted by: Pete
Framerate is king, IQ is next in line.

QFT: although AA is really a beautiful thing, for me when I'm in a multiplayer situation (i.e. most games I play), minimum FPS needs to stay very high, and extra IQ at that point only brings those down. This is currently the case in DOD:S...with HDR and AA, my 6800GT can push a good average at 10x7, but that's no where near what I get when a full on firefight happens (when FPS really matters), so HDR/AA are off. Some other people would consider this odd, but I'd rather be see more frames with lower IQ than to get owned while trying to watch the world's prettiest slideshow.

Point is, comparing the tiniest changes in IQ implementation means a lot less than simply being able to show those frames a decent, constant rate. Only the big bugs in IQ matter, and those typically get fixed before too long, so it's not such a big deal. IQ can definitely bring the nod to one card, should all other factors (performance, featureset, price) be equal, but since that's typically not the case, you don't see IQ being the deciding factor in most purchases.

 

[CP5670]

I agree with that FPS is crucial (in fact I almost never use any AA at all; I have it enabled in exactly two games, both of which are over five years old), but it's really older games that I want the maximum image quality for. There is usually plenty of video card power to spare in old games and it's much easier to notice the shimmering and AF imperfections in these games than newer ones anyway. Even if the IQ enhancements aren't suitable for new games, I would like to have the choice to use them in older stuff.

 

[sandorski]

Image quality is a legitimate factor, especially when sufficient Performance can be had. For me, a choice between 2 equally peforming cards where one has superior Image Quality, makes me choose the one with superior Image Quality.

 

[TGS]

I don't think I've ever tweaked for higher IQ. I know I've tweaked settings to get more FPS. In FPS games, actually FPS are the absolute key in playability. In slower games like MMOs or Sims, IQ is nice as it's not twitch dependant.

I still remember playing quake 3 mods with mipmaps at 5-6@ 800x600. Everything looked like block figures, and the textures were blurry as all hell. This was on a Ti4200. It basically doubled my fps, and made big fights easy to play in. Boy was it ugly though. I really didn't care about IQ until I got my 9700pro, and I could get both.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Pabster
How can you judge the IQ or AA/AF implementation of a card that isn't even available for purchase?

The X1800X:'s are avail MANY places, but UNDER msrp. Please dont spread incorrect information.

The simple fact is, ATi has better IQ overall, and MUCH better AF.

 

[Insomniak]

ATi has awesome AA, Nvidia has awesome OpenGL and Linux. Oh yeah, and Nvidia actually ships cards.

Pick your battles I guess.

 

[imported_Rampage]

We want FPS again because there are very intensive games coming out now. Takes both. ATI has concentrated a bit too much on AA/AF and not enough on superior speed/"SLI"/heat/power/single slot solutions IMO.
The availability/price/corporate fraud thing was just the extra smack in the face.

IMO, ATI's last remaining advantage lies in its AF PERFORMANCE.. not quality.. people arent so concerned with minute differences that when you are playing a game at 80FPS that you need to take screenshots and do side-by-side comparisons to see the difference.
People realized that was just ridiculous, and pointless. Esp as FPS are still the dominate genre.
For me, ATI's advantage doesnt outweigh all of Nvidia's to warrant purchase. I think you'll see that most people will agree with me again this round when we find out more Valve system survey statistics come out about a year after the X1K launch.

2sense.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Pabster
How can you judge the IQ or AA/AF implementation of a card that isn't even available for purchase?

The X1800X:'s are avail MANY places, but UNDER msrp. Please dont spread incorrect information.

The simple fact is, ATi has better IQ overall, and MUCH better AF.

Oh really? Show me where I can buy an X1800XT then. I'm waiting...

We know you're an ATi fanboy but don't spread FUD.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Pabster
How can you judge the IQ or AA/AF implementation of a card that isn't even available for purchase?

The X1800X:'s are avail MANY places, but UNDER msrp. Please dont spread incorrect information.

The simple fact is, ATi has better IQ overall, and MUCH better AF.

how is something subjective considered "fact"? actually, seemed to me reading the r520 reviews that nvidia actually displayed a more accurate image than ati...

isn't it rather hypocritical to demand one doesn't spread "incorrect information" in the same breath misinformation is being spread?