So, it appears this man Texas executed was innocent

[Atreus21]

1) Killing the unborn centers around Religious beliefs and if Conservatives really belief in limited Gubermint then why do they want Gubermint to be involved in every woman's life?

Killing the unborn is killing the unborn. Absolutely no religious beliefs inherent in the discussion. We want the government involved in preventing abortion to the same extent that they are involved in preventing murder, because they are no different.

 

[ShawnD1]

I oppose capital punishment altogether; most do not. But this thread can at least be an example depriving the supporters of the false comfort of no wrongful executions.

Thank god you live in a blue state where they don't kill innocent people. They only lock innocent people in jail for 50+ years. That's so much better.

 

[PokerGuy]

Very few western legal system systematically execute innocent people.

Idiot. The US legal system doesn't either. This is one case where there's the possibility of an incorrect outcome. Not certain, but the possibility. One case.

 

[Ausm]

Simpletons can't resist strawman arguments. There are pro-life atheists. I encourage you to educate yourself.

Really? I would love to meet one.

 

[Ausm]

Killing the unborn is killing the unborn. Absolutely no religious beliefs inherent in the discussion. We want the government involved in preventing abortion to the same extent that they are involved in preventing murder, because they are no different.

LMAO Ok there may be some atheists out there who are pro-life but few and far between but to say the majority of pro-lifers are not holy rollers is a fucking joke.

 

[fskimospy]

Simpletons can't resist strawman arguments. There are pro-life atheists. I encourage you to educate yourself.

There are definitely pro life atheists, but polling clearly shows that religious belief is by far the largest single factor in the determination to be pro life. His point is largely accurate.

 

[heymrdj]

LMAO Ok there may be some atheists out there who are pro-life but few and far between but to say the majority of pro-lifers are not holy rollers is a fucking joke.

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=atheists+for+pro+life

 

[ichy]

No it does not.

No person shall be devoid of life, liberty or property without due process of law.

If there is a heart beat and brain function, then the person is alive. The same rules that apply to the hospital should apply to inside the womb.

The 14th amendment refers to "all persons born or naturalized in the United States." Nothing in the Constitution refers to heart beat or brain function.

 

[Atreus21]

LMAO Ok there may be some atheists out there who are pro-life but few and far between but to say the majority of pro-lifers are not holy rollers is a fucking joke.

I'd be willing to bet that a majority of pro-abortionists are holy-rollers as well.

You said that the issue is a matter of religion, and it's not. It's a matter of what constitutes murder and what doesn't.

 

[LumbergTech]

Headline from article...



Elusive. Not definitive.


.....'nuff said.

Um yeea...about that....we tend to like to know that people are guilty when executing them..not proving it afterward...

 

[Ausm]

I'd be willing to bet that a majority of pro-abortionists are holy-rollers as well.

You said that the issue is a matter of religion, and it's not. It's a matter of what constitutes murder and what doesn't.

LOL I would love to see statistics on that assertion.

I guess I have a skewed opinion because every nutjob that kills a late term abortion Doctor is a holy roller. Or attempts to blow up a clinic are also predominately religious whack jobs.

 

[Ninjahedge]

No it does not.

No person shall be devoid of life, liberty or property without due process of law.

If there is a heart beat and brain function, then the person is alive. The same rules that apply to the hospital should apply to inside the womb.

The definition of "life" is mostly religious.

Your definition would make the morning after pill acceptable, which is still rejected by the religious right under the same grounds.

Religion believe a soul begins at the "quickening", not at birth.

MOST people believe it starts somewhere in between.

 

[Atreus21]

LOL I would love to see statistics on that assertion.

Considering that a majority of the citizenry in the country claim a religion, it's not an unfounded assertion.

I guess I have a skewed opinion because every nutjob that kills a late term abortion Doctor is a holy roller. Or attempts to blow up a clinic are also predominately religious whack jobs.

Clinic bombers and doctor murderers are much worse than those who commit the act they decry so vehemently. To the extent they give in to the impulse to violence they are no better than Al-Qaida. Same means, different political end.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Thank god you live in a blue state where they don't kill innocent people. They only lock innocent people in jail for 50+ years. That's so much better.

Um, if you were given a choice between being killed and jail, what would you choose?

Now I am not talking a Turkish Prison, mind you....

The upside is also, as proven in the past, that 30 years down the road they can overturn your conviction on new or re-examined evidence. That does not matter when you are dead.

The only thing that is lacking is fair restitution of taking those years of freedom from your life.

If we were forced to pay for our mistakes, we would endeavor not to make them so quickly.

 

[xBiffx]

I'll just sum it up this way. The concern that I have that an innocent person slips through our justice system and is executed is considerably less than the concern that I have that a criminal not be brought to justice and in turn suck the life out of our already limited penal system's resources. Part of this is due to the fact that one is much more likely to happen than the other.

 

[Ausm]

Considering that a majority of the citizenry in the country claim a religion, it's not an unfounded assertion.

Clinic bombers and doctor murderers are much worse than those who commit the act they decry so vehemently. To the extent they give in to the impulse to violence they are no better than Al-Qaida. Same means, different political end.

Your really reaching on this one dude since they "claim" to have a Religion is different then the amount who "claim" to have Religion support or don't support a Pro-life stance.

I agree with this part

 

[Ninjahedge]

Considering that a majority of the citizenry in the country claim a religion, it's not an unfounded assertion.

It is just not solid.

The question comes back to the belief of when life starts. If you go biologically, you can start siting the heartbeat, brain function, movement.

You go religion and you get muddy. It is when the "soul" is born.

As a clarification, most that oppose Abortion, or those that oppose it even in its first trimester, usually site religious reasons. Those that don't, even those that ARE religious, do not site religion as their deciding factor.

Clinic bombers and doctor murderers are much worse than those who commit the act they decry so vehemently. To the extent they give in to the impulse to violence they are no better than Al-Qaida. Same means, different political end.

Agreed. You do not object to killing by killing people.

 

[Texashiker]

The 14th amendment refers to "all persons born or naturalized in the United States." Nothing in the Constitution refers to heart beat or brain function.

How many doctors are willing to kill a patient (of any age) that has a heart beat and brain function?

What is so different from an embryo, and someone connected to a life support machine. We do not walk into a hospital and say "I do not want my life bothered with this person connected to a machine, so lets pull the pull".

 

[Ausm]

Personally, I would like to see Gitmo prisoners brought into our legal system and the evidence presented in an open court.

I thought I would never see the day were TH and I would see eye to eye

 

[Atreus21]

It is just not solid.

The question comes back to the belief of when life starts. If you go biologically, you can start siting the heartbeat, brain function, movement.

You go religion and you get muddy. It is when the "soul" is born.

As a clarification, most that oppose Abortion, or those that oppose it even in its first trimester, usually site religious reasons. Those that don't, even those that ARE religious, do not site religion as their deciding factor.

Well, let's try a different approach for this definition then. I don't think biology or religion are necessary to find out what's permissible and what's not, nor do I think the soul has anything to do with it.

Starting point: Do you think it's okay to abort a child 10 seconds before it's born?

On second thought, as much as I want to debate this, it'll be yet another example of abortion threadjacking an OP of a different topic. If you want to continue, just post your response in a PM to me.

 

[woolfe9999]

so you were there when he allegedly committed the crime?

Conviction in court = factual guilt? The system is infallible? Are you even half serous?

 

[M0RPH]

My prediction: everyone agrees that 'executing an innocent man is a horrible injustice' - but when actually presented with the evidence of it, supporters largely yawn.

Because nobody can say with absolute certainty that this guy is innocent. The evidence that convicted him may be flawed, but there is also nothing conclusive to exonerate him. When that case does come along where a PROVEN innocent person gets executed, I'm sure a lot more people will be up in arms.

 

[xBiffx]

Conviction in court = factual guilt? The system is infallible? Are you even half serous?

I believe he was making a comment on what Patranus said which was conviction in court = guilty in a court of law. Which is all that is needed to go to the next step. Sure the system has flaws, its made up of humans.

 

[CitizenKain]

Because nobody can say with absolute certainty that this guy is innocent. The evidence that convicted him may be flawed, but there is also nothing conclusive to exonerate him. When that case does come along where a PROVEN innocent person gets executed, I'm sure a lot more people will be up in arms.

Also no one can say with absolute certainty that the guy committed the crime either. Considering all pro-death penalty people are fucking morons, they would have no problems with even someone who is proven innocent after they were executed, as they'd hand wave it away.

 

[MagickMan]

Really? I would love to meet one.

/wave

Hello! Agnostic here, how ya doin'? I'm Pro-life and Anti-death penalty. Both are equally grotesque.