So is this the end for the AGP bus ?

[DJQuanta]

Today I was doing a price check at Newegg for AGP ATI-based video cards since the video card I got with my new system three weeks ago plains sucks (came with 400 Mhz memory, I have another thread related to that problem).

Browsing the current ATI based offerings I noticed that in just a few days there are lots of video cards that have gone out of stock, and since they are AGP based cards I think that probably they won't be available again in the future:

9800 Pro's = Only All In wonder
9700 Pro = Only All In wonder
9600 XT's = A few brands left
9600 Pro's = A few brands left

When I was checking the forums before buying my stuff I read someone saying that the AGP was not going to dissappear so fast, but with the current short availability of ATI-based AGP cards( and the tons of PCIe cards that are currently availible) I wonder if the AGP just exhaled it's last breath ?

And what's worse, now I'm questioning myself if instead of going the AMD way I should've got a 2.8 Mhz Prescott 775-socket based machine with a PCIe Geforce 6600 (non-gt) for only a few dollars more. A setup that I believe would've more horsepower than my A64 2800+ with 9600 Pro, with a graphics bus that would've allowed me to get a new vid card next year without a problem, and with the most current socket for intel processors.

I've heard about the Geforce 6600's coming to AGP, but if only Nvidia will have decent AGP based cards I think that they won't last long, and the competition will be only centered on PCIe cards.

Am I wrong on this?, or is it just that since few people have PCIe and lot's AGP, the xmas season has taken it's toll on AGP based cards and they will be back by next year, and we will have the possibility to upgrade video card without also upgrading the mobo.

And BTW... when it's PCIe coming to AMD based mobos ?

Share your thoughts please.

Cheers.

Quanta

 

[housecat]

I wouldnt buy a non PCIe system at this time. Most wouldnt agree with me, but if I had to upgrade this minute it'd be a prescott PCIe system. You would prob be able to add a dual core chip next year on a prescott board, they should be a little better... in the meantime you wouldnt have a "slow" system... which is blown a bit out of proportion by some (the difference between A64/P4). Its by no means a "horrible" choice, and should allow for the much better performing dual cores in '05 to be used.
And you'll have a PCIe card that can be migrated to any system at that time.

I personally keep graphics cards for a long time, even if replaced becuase they are so expensive. A year or two down the road a AGP card will be completely useless for any system being sold on the market. Cant pop it into your wife/girlfriend/mothers computer or your spare system.
If that wasnt enough, SLI is the icing on the cake to the PCIe arguement.. get a 6600gt/6800gt today and buy another down the road and upgrade to a SLI NF4 (intel or AMD).

PCIe is coming to AMD mobos this month (IIRC) at very least in the form of SLI NF4s. Single slots in Jan. SLI P4 boards coming in '05 (should be).

IMO a system with PCIe (even a P4) is equal to a A64 (without PCIe) system (all things considered; performance/upgradability). I just wouldnt want to be stuck on the AGP platform. It really depends how you use your hardware. If I were in your situation i'd run out and buy a 6800Ultra or GT. I do not upgrade very often. If you do upgrade alot, then dont fret much.

For someone like myself who keeps an old system around or two, and my current A64 PCIe will be around for many years as a backup.. I want as many parts to interchange with whatever replaces my PCIe A64 system. And PCIe will prob still be the standard for many years.

The cheap prices of the 6600GT PCIe vs AGP bothers me as well.

I'm planning on a SLI NF4, A64 3000+ and 6600GT at the end of this month with a bit of luck. If not, this old GF4 4200 128MB is plenty fast.

 

[cryptonomicon]

regardless if it is obsolete or not, most MFR's are always putting the latest feature set on their boards, so AGP will start to cycle out just because of the way the consumer market works. when new PCI-E chipsets gain mass popularity (DELL/HP/SONY >> in stores), it is just natural that AGP support will be less and less common. the product life will come to an end whether it is ready to or not.

AGP aside, this is just the world that we live in-- after all, agressive product cycles can fuel innovation.

 

[Fern]

While I might buy a PCI-e mobo if I was in the market for one today, I don't think AGP will disappear THAT fast. There is a HUGE base of AGP users out there who will be seeking upgrades over the next year or so. Somebody (manufacturer) will be happy to take their money in return for a new AGP gfx card. But it will be interesting to see this pans out.

Yes, I think the fact that are relatively few PCI-e mobo's and it's XMAS time has something to do with the lack of supply on the AGP side.

Looks like your using a 9600p. You've still got plenty of upgrade "room" left. 6800GT>6600GT>9800p>9600p.

 

[beatle]

I just bought a new AGP 6800 and an Asus A8V. I've got no regrets about waiting for PCIe. I had planned to wait until PCIe, but I got such a great deal on the video card, I couldn't turn it down. AMD 939 PCIe motherboards aren't out, and when they do come out, they may be buggy, expensive, etc. I'd rather have something polished and proven rather than being the first kid on my block to have the new toy.

If I decide to upgrade my motherboard while I still have this video card and AGP isn't available, I'll probably just sell my video card and buy a new one. It's not the end of the world.

 

[miri]

AGP was released in 1997 yet regular PCI video cards are still being made. I wonder if they will still make new AGP cards in 7 years.

 

[nitromullet]

The reason the cards you listed are drying up:

9800 Pro's = Only All In wonder
9700 Pro = Only All In wonder
9600 XT's = A few brands left
9600 Pro's = A few brands left

...is because they are last year's cards (the 9700Pro is from the year before even), not because they are AGP. ATi replaced these with new ones this year. Some of the new ones are PCIe and others are AGP. AGP will be around for a couple of years to come, but they just won't be the top of the line cards anymore. The same way it is now with PCI video cards.

 

[DJQuanta]

Originally posted by: nitromullet
The reason the cards you listed are drying up:

9800 Pro's = Only All In wonder
9700 Pro = Only All In wonder
9600 XT's = A few brands left
9600 Pro's = A few brands left

...is because they are last year's cards (the 9700Pro is from the year before even), not because they are AGP. ATi replaced these with new ones this year. Some of the new ones are PCIe and others are AGP. AGP will be around for a couple of years to come, but they just won't be the top of the line cards anymore. The same way it is now with PCI video cards.

Which are the new ones?. I think the X800 line is the only one of the newer ATI's that are available for AGP, but that line is for the high end market. What about replacement for the mid-range mainstream market ?.

 

[DJQuanta]

Originally posted by: housecat
I wouldnt buy a non PCIe system at this time. Most wouldnt agree with me, but if I had to upgrade this minute it'd be a prescott PCIe system. You would prob be able to add a dual core chip next year on a prescott board, they should be a little better... in the meantime you wouldnt have a "slow" system... which is blown a bit out of proportion by some (the difference between A64/P4). Its by no means a "horrible" choice, and should allow for the much better performing dual cores in '05 to be used.
And you'll have a PCIe card that can be migrated to any system at that time.

IMO a system with PCIe (even a P4) is equal to a A64 (without PCIe) system (all things considered; performance/upgradability). I just wouldnt want to be stuck on the AGP platform. It really depends how you use your hardware. If I were in your situation i'd run out and buy a 6800Ultra or GT. I do not upgrade very often. If you do upgrade alot, then dont fret much.
q]

You're right, maybe I focused too much in the Anand's AMD guides and didn't pay much attention to the Intel guides, if I've read a bit more I should've noticed that the parts that I was buying didn't have much of an upgrade path. I should've noticed that buying a non PCIe system was a bad decision at this point.

The 68XX series is a bit too expensive a this moment for me, it would be great to have a $130-$150 range AGP video card that was really worth it, like the 6600($120), which according to the reviews can get around 5100 3DMarks2003, which is a lot better than the max of 3700 3DMarkss2003 you can have with a 9600 Pro/XT in the same price range.

 

[housecat]

u did get huge bang for the buck... and since your on a budget you did just as well IMO as if you'd gone PCIe.
ive been wanting to upgrade for a year now, but hate the catch 22 of either a) PCIe support, or b) superior, faster A64 processor

but you did really well anyway, at least you got S939. if you'd gotten 754 and no PCIe I'd be kicking myself. i dont care how big of a bargain those might be, (or were).. no way would i limit myself to the "celeron" processor of the future. AGP is one thing.. being on 754 is unacceptable for me.

you did pick a good time in a way to be stuck on AGP.. it is the beginning of the transition after all. so you should be good video card wise for a year at least.


though i think ppl are going to be surprised how fast this transition will go once the NF4 for AMD and intel are on the streets... it'll be fast. thats why i'd suggest buying a uber-fast card like the 6800 and enjoying your system until the whole thing needs replaced. otherwise the frustration of not being able to upgrade to the next gen cards, or paying more for the AGP version would suck.

personally i feel PCIe will takeoff like wildfire once the enthusiasts get boards that support it.

also, you have s939... all you need to do if you want PCIe is replace the motherboard... not a huge expense.

I'd consider one of two stategies.

1. Stick with your current system and enjoy until PCIe A64 boards come out.. move your processor and everything over but your 9600 Pro (which isnt the greatest anyway)
2. Or buy a top of the line AGP card, replacing everything all at once when you need

Since you didnt purchase a expensive AGP card yet... I'd do #1.. get your PCIe support and pickup a nice 6600GT.. it will be a great upgrade from a 9600 pro.. and you will also have SLI potential if you get a dual board. It will be around $180-200 for the board... and $180 for the PCIe 6600GT but I think then you have a killer system consisting of the three main things you need for longevity these days... S939, PCIe and SLI.

Sell the 9600 Pro on ebay to some sucker, or put it in your moms/dads/bro's/sisters rig.. i sold my 9800 pro on ebay to someone in canada for more than i payed.

 

[klah]

So is this the end for the AGP bus

AGP is not a bus.
--------------------
NV and ATI will produce PCIe->AGP bridge chips until their AIB partners stop buying them. The AIBs will produce cards using the $5 bridge as long as people continue buying them.

 

[RussianSensation]

I think AGP is still going to be around until 2006 at least. More ppl own AGP based systems than PCIe based systems right now. Not everyone wants to buy a PCIe based motherboard. A lot of people have decent computers and who will just want to upgrade their videocard. I doubt everyone who bought A64 754 or any of the current socket 939 boards and everyone who has XP3200+ and P4 3.4ghz on 478 platforms will be too happy if videocard companies stopped producing AGP-based videocards starting with this generation of videocards. Videocard companies know that and that's why they'll try to slowly fade AGP out and it wont happen within next 12 months.

Even today neither ATi nor Nvidia have PCI E videocards on the high-end for the market. They are hard to find and they are overpriced. Also neither company has sub-$100 PCIe based videocards either. PCI Express is not anywhere near mainstream. After A64 introduced Nforce 4, it will still take a while before more than 50% of users will own PCIe capable videocards. Only after that it would be feasible to start reducing production of AGP videocards.

 

[DJQuanta]

Originally posted by: housecat
u did get huge bang for the buck... and since your on a budget you did just as well IMO as if you'd gone PCIe.
ive been wanting to upgrade for a year now, but hate the catch 22 of either a) PCIe support, or b) superior, faster A64 processor

but you did really well anyway, at least you got S939. if you'd gotten 754 and no PCIe I'd be kicking myself. i dont care how big of a bargain those might be, (or were).. no way would i limit myself to the "celeron" processor of the future. AGP is one thing.. being on 754 is unacceptable for me.

Then I'll start kicking myself after lunch, 'cause the A64 2800+ is socket 754. :shocked:

Anyway I think you are right with your advice:

- Buy a better AGP based card as soon as one is available in my price-range, might be a 6600 non-gt, 6600 GT or a 9800 PRO (if they become available again and go down to the $140 range), and then stick to my system until it's time to replace it as a whole.

- Or I could try to sell the mobo-cpu-videocard combo as soon as I can (when it's still worth something) and go to either AMD-939-PCIe(When it's available), or INTEL-775-PCIe.

The point is that I think that it was a mistake to buy an AMD-754-NF3-AGP based at this moment, first because of the socket, and second because of the video interface. As much as we love our AMD-based systems, I believe that anyone who ask for advice in the forums at this moment about what system to buy, should be at least advised to check the INTEL-775-PCIe offers, that way they'll have a more certain upgrade path, not to mention that they can get right now a well-performing budget PCIe video card in the $130 range (6600 non-gt).

When PCIe it's widely available for AMD mobos, then probably the best advice would be to go that way.

I just hope that we are right in that the current shortage of AGP video cards is due to the Xmas season and the fact that most of us still have AGP based mobos, we'll know for sure early in 2005.

BTW... does ATI announced what was their future strategy for AGP ?, at this moment beside the older 9XXX models, ATI doesn't have entry-level and mid-range AGP based cards, only PCIe.