so, is it too early to pass sentence on dubya Bush yet?

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busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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<< What percent of the CO2 emitted is the result of human activity? What percent of that would Kyoto have reduced?

Is there still doubt among scientists that CO2 is actually warming the earth? If the money and resources are spent on reducing CO2 does that not also reduce resources that could be used to feed the poor, improve education and health care and so forth. Does it not behoove us before we spend billions of dollars on unproven science to insure that it is being spent in the most beneficial way?
>>



I think if you take into account all the slash and burn in the Amazon, as well as the coal burning, etc, it gets to a point where you're wondering how nature still manages to cope.

If the possibility of a runaway greenhouse effect sometime in the future (ala Venus) is even 50/50, and even if you assert we are now only in the experiment and research stage, which we're not, it is something significant enough that we need to fund a plan of some kind.

It would most likely &quot;behoove&quot; us to act now. Calling for more research is just big corp's way of stalling.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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heritage.org/library/categories/enviro/
ECONOMIC WINNERS AND LOSERS AROUND THE WORLD
A global climate change treaty with enforceable restrictions on emissions would impose massive economic hardship on the global economy. For example, the Australian Bureau of Agricultural and Resource Economics (ABARE) has estimated that adopting such a treaty would curb global GDP growth and result in a 0.8 percent to 1.1 percent reduction in total world output in 2020 below the baseline. The World Bank estimates that the global economy will grow at an average of 2.9 percent from 1992 to 2020.66 Based on ABARE estimates, including legally binding emissions restrictions in the UNFCCC would cause a reduction in economic growth in 2020 by one-third. In dollar terms, this would be a loss of between $463.3 billion and $637.1 billion.67

The actual costs of the treaty's implementation, however, will be much greater. The treaty will retard economic production every year after it is implemented. Assuming that reduction in production remains constant at 1.1 percent of global GDP growth from 1998 to 2020, the cumulative effects could exceed $10 trillion.68 ABARE's economic analysis shows that the economic effects on the industrialized countries will be particularly severe. Annex I (industrialized) countries would suffer a 1 percent to 1.5 percent decrease in GDP growth, while the developing countries of Annex II would experience only a 0.2 percent to 0.5 percent reduction in output in 2020 from the baseline.

Different economic configurations and reliance on trade, however, will make the effects deviate from country to county within the two country categories. Decreases in production result from several sources. As the Annex I countries reduce fossil fuel consumption, costs of production and consumer prices will increase and trade in fossil fuels and fossil-fuel-intensive products, such as steel, will decrease. The resulting reduction in economic activity decreases consumption, wages, and demand for labor and capital. In addition, fossil-fuel-intensive industries will relocate to Annex II countries. Annex I countries that export fossil fuel (particularly coal) and have significant fossil-fuel-intensive manufacturing sectors will need to modify their power generation facilities to reduce emissions. Large exporters of products that emit high levels of greenhouse gases would be affected more detrimentally than those that export less or not at all.

The United States is only one of the countries that would endure sharp economic penalties from implementation of this treaty. Other major losers include Australia, New Zealand, and Japan. The ABARE analysis indicates that Australia would experience the worst economic damage from the treaty. Australia exports large quantities of fossil-fuel-intensive products, such as steel and aluminum, and relies heavily on coal for electricity. As a result, its projected growth in greenhouse gas emissions would exceed the Annex I country average, generating greater costs for treaty compliance than for all other countries. The Australian economy would be hurt by the decreasing demand for fossil fuels?especially coal, one of Australia's largest exports.69

New Zealand and Japan also would be affected adversely. New Zealand's coal-intensive electricity sector would be hit hard by the increasing prices for fossil-fuel-intensive imports.70 Japan already has invested large amounts of capital in renovating its industrial sector to reduce its dependence on fossil fuels. The treaty would require additional investment and render new facilities obsolete.71

The Annex I countries least affected would be the former Soviet Union and countries in the European Community. For example, ABARE estimates that the welfare loss for a European is one-sixth that of an American and 1/22 that of an Australian.72 Furthermore, although wages in the European Community would be required to fall by 4 percent to absorb unemployment generated as a result of the treaty, wages in Australia would have to fall 19 percent below the baseline. These comparatively lower economic costs for the European Community and the former Soviet Union may explain their support for the treaty. Annex II countries also would suffer from the higher costs of production in industrialized countries, which would increase the prices of Annex I exports. And interest rates would likely increase, thereby raising the debt burden of Annex II countries.

The detrimental effects of the treaty, however, will be mitigated by industrial relocation from the Annex I countries. Under the terms of the treaty, the developing countries will have a competitive advantage over industrialized countries because of the exemption from greenhouse gas emissions restrictions. This exemption will lead Annex I greenhouse gas emissions-intensive industries, such as steel, chemical, and mineral refining, to relocate to Annex II countries. This shift will increase both their domestic production and exports of fossil-fuel-intensive products.73

As with Annex I countries, there will be winners and losers among the Annex II countries. An independent study conducted by WEFA74 demonstrates that the treaty will benefit the Asian Tigers and other relatively wealthy developing countries and cripple the economies of fossil fuel exporters in the developing world. Specifically, if the treaty were implemented in its current form, South Korea, Taiwan, and Mexico could be expected to experience an increase of 5 percent in annual GDP growth. Argentina, Brazil, China, India, Indonesia, Hong Kong, the Philippines, Singapore, and Thailand would experience increases of as much as 2 percent in annual GDP growth. Meanwhile, the WEFA model also indicates that Algeria, Chile, Colombia, Egypt, and Venezuela would suffer 2 percent to 5 percent reductions in annual GDP growth, and Ecuador, Nigeria, Peru, and Saudi Arabia would suffer a decrease of more than 5 percent.75

Economic predictions show that the overall impact of the treaty will be a net decline in global economic growth, resulting in massive loss of wealth and a decline in general welfare. However, these damaging effects will not be distributed equitably. Specifically, the European Community, the former Soviet Union, and most of the wealthier developing countries would suffer minor effects relative to other countries. These other countries, which stand to be hurt the most by the global climate treaty, should recognize the support accorded the treaty by the EC, the former Soviet Union, and wealthy developing countries for what it is: pure self-interest.


busmaster, there is still doubt that human activity has anything to do with global warming. The earth's climate has not been stable in it's history. Why does anyone expect that it will be stable now. It would perhaps be better to learn how to deal with a changing climate then to try and change something which perhaps has no effect at all.
vision.net.au/

stanford.edu/
Measurements of greenhouse gases are new and fairly limited, beginning only in the late 1950's in the South Pole and at Mauna Loa. However, most scientists today agree on some general statistics of sources for individual gases. Only 3.5 to 5.4 percent of total carbon dioxide emissions are generated by humans, while the bulk that enters the atmosphere comes from the planet's natural &quot;carbon cycle&quot; from animal metabolisms.

About seventy percent of the methane in the atmosphere, however, comes from human sources, while the rest is from natural emissions form wetlands, termites, and aquatic life. Thirty percent of the atmospheric nitrous oxides, which have 200 times the warming potential of carbon dioxide, are due to human activity, and CFCs are entirely man-made. Some of these CFCs, however, have a cooling effect, rather than a warming one.

To further complicate the issue, the warming effect of a particular greenhouse gas is difficult to measure. For example, though carbon dioxide is a less powerful warming agent than methane, there is more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere than there is methane, which is only a trace gas. Nitrous oxides, similarly, are greater warming agents than carbon dioxide, yet make up only .0000001 to .00000000001 percent of the atmosphere by volume, compared to carbon dioxide's .034 percent. Thus the cumulative effects of the methane versus the carbon dioxide are difficult to determine.

Since the human contribution percentage-wise of methane is larger than that of carbon dioxide, but the carbon dioxide makes up a larger portion of the atmosphere, it is even more difficult to determine the potential for human activity to effect the greenhouse effect.

Another complicating factor in the science of climate change is the lack of convincing data relating any ties between anthropogenic activity and actual changes in the climate, such as heating or rising water levels.

The report issued by the IPCC, or the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, in 1995 relates a warming trend of .3 to .6 degrees Celsius since 1850, with .2 to .3 degrees of this warming occurring in the last 40 years. However, the warming recorded is not uniform in chronology or distribution. For example, more of the warming occurs over land than over water, at night than in the day, and during the winter than during the summer. In other words, the daytime temperatures are not hotter, but the evenings are warmer, and the summers are not hotter, but the winters are milder. Other more recent measures, taken by balloons and satellites, give more accurate readings, but over a shorter time span. Some of these measurements actually indicate a cooling trend in some areas.

Rainfall is another measurement used to discuss climate change, for increased rainfall could signal the greenhouse effect, as more of the atmospheric water is released in the form of precipitation, and more is absorbed into the atmosphere by evaporation. Numbers on this trend indicate a slight global increase of one percent during the 20th century. However, this increase is not uniform, translating into rainfall increase in areas such as the high latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere, but decrease in the subtropics and tropics from Africa to Indonesia.

Due to the lack of data for any length of time, it is difficult to fit these numbers into any sort of large scale framework. It is quite possible that similar climate trends have been present throughout the centuries, even millennia. The data we possess on climate change in fact covers only .000004 percent of the Earth's history of over four billion years.

 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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I completely agree that we are far from understanding our climate and atmosphere. But the risk is there in the patterns, and its global, and it's unprecedented. As far as evidence, I don't know what you need. Increasingly, more and more areas in the midwest are flooded, or under water year-round. The ozone hole in the Antarctic is enormous, and one is forming in the Arctic. Forests are replacing permafrost in Greenland. Jungles in some regoins of Africa and South America are becoming savannah, and savannah becoming desert. Sure this stuff happens in history all the time. But not so quickly as in the last fifteen years. We are seeling accelerated climactic changes in what amounts to a geological blink of an eye.

I don't like these odds.

As for the impact on the economics of developed countries, sure. But it will only inspire change and innovations. Markets will suffer and maybe die out, others will thrive. But its never stagnant.

 

Tominator

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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One more time for the dimwitted Liberals...

The page in question is from where it says it is regardless if it was easier to find on Limbaugh's site, it is the truth. AND we were discussing Reagan's 8 years which were from 1980 to 1988. THAT was the purpose of the graph. Those years our economy grew at an astounding rate not exceeded until 1994 when REPUBLICANS took over congrees and STOPPED any more tax raises by your hero Clinton.

The defict came about because the Democrats DID NOT keep their agreements when Reagan pushed for tax cuts. The deficit was going DOWN when Reagan retired. Thanks to Reagan tax cuts the Government coffers nearly doubled during Reagan. HERE THAT TRIPLSHOT! DOUBLED!

When Bush Senior became President he tried to bargain with the Democrats. All they did is stab him in the back for his trouble.

Look at ANY graph of the stockmarket boom that started in 1994. Not in 1992 when Clinton shoved the largest tax increase in history down our throats. Look.....but it will not help as when dealing with Liberals you get beans for arguments.

You can twist and turn, jump and shout and still you can never change what actually happened.
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
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Good job Etech. We've seen this before,haven't we?

Of course the Heritge Foundation shows no bias or has no agenda to move forward, does it? :)

:confused:
 
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Boy, this is one hateful argument, and I am glad not to be a part of it!

Tominator, no offense but your blatantly partisan, us-and-them tone really undermines what you are saying. I sincerely doubt that even Rush really believes all the reactionary claptrap people write for him, but you seem to treat it as gospel. Nobody with a reasoned view of the issues could possibly be as predictably partisan as that moron Rush. I think anyone who is thinking MUST have a mix of views that is not as uniformly on the same side of every issue as Limbaugh, and to me this is what makes him SO boring (and so richly deserving of the title of Al Franken's book &quot;Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot&quot;. I find knee-jerk liberals just as irritating. This transcends party, and I take issue with your blanket condemnation of &quot;liberals&quot;.

You are too bright a guy to just recite Rush's views on every issue, and you must know better than to believe the Republican party line on every issue - I know I damned well don't believe the Dems every time!
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
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Thanks to Reagan tax cuts the Government coffers nearly doubled during Reagan. HERE THAT TRIPLSHOT! DOUBLED

And the deficet(that's short for spending more than what you take in) tripled! The country has spent the last 15 years getting to a position to carve down that debt he created,and you friggin myopic republicans want to gut the surplus the Clinton Adminstration put through.

Let me tell you something Tominator. In 1982, when Reagan was elected by every state but his home state,I was selling multi million dollar digital phone systems to fortune 100 companies for the second largest telecom company on the North American continent. When this bozo you like so much was voted in on his economic &quot;trickle down&quot; theory,fortune 100 companies locked up all purchases and expendetures becuase all they saw was econmic turmoil coming. I lived that fiasco.I don't need to here some crap from Limbaugh to know what was going on. I was in the board rooms getting the info first hand. Alot of people got hurt financially by this guy you rave about. Hell ,he wrecked California's fiscal policies so bad ,they are still digging the shrapnel out of there ars.

Don't try touting reagan years as being ther holy grail of republican econmic strategy.We libs will hand you your head on that issue. And if your source of info is the heritage foundation,just keep it. Even good Republicans think that group is too far to the right.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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busmaster11
I completely agree that we are far from understanding our climate and atmosphere

I agree, and would not want the economic disruption and power shift to China and India unless it it based on reasonable and generally accepted science.

But the risk is there in the patterns, and its global, and it's unprecedented.
What patterns?
vision.net.au/

But not so quickly as in the last fifteen years.
Have a link? I haven?t seen that documented or referred to.

Markets will change over time of course. I do not agree with a give away to other countries without good reason though.

I fully agree we should take care of the environment, I have upgraded insulation, replaced an old ac system and changed many light bulbs to floruescent to reduce energy useage. I urge everyone else to do what they can. The Kyoto treaty by only addressing some countries and ignoring some of the fastest growing was flawed. Perhaps there is a reason to reduce CO2, it has not been proven yet, but that was not the way to do it.
It really does not even matter that Pres. Bush rejected it. The Senate would never have ratified it anyway.

I repeat, Is it better to spend the money and resources on CO2 reductions rather than other beneficial projects until it is proven that is the best use for the money?


Don_Vito &quot;Boy, this is one hateful argument, and I am glad not to be a part of it!&quot;
Nice rationalization you have going on there.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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<< Don_Vito &quot;Boy, this is one hateful argument, and I am glad not to be a part of it!&quot;
Nice rationalization you have going on there.
>>



&quot;Rationalization&quot;? I had not been a player in your back-and-forth partisan bickering to this point - I find it really dull. I guess the heavy metals in the groundwater of this hellhole of a state are getting to you . . .
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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TS, I know you are educationally challenged but you do understand the concept of sources don't you? If not, let me know and I'll get out my daughter's grade school books for you.

In fact, a study performed by the Argonne National Laboratory for the U.S. Department of Energy37 in February 1997 predicted that the protocol now being discussed would cause:
20 to 30 percent of the basic chemical industry to move to developing countries within 15 or 20 years;
All primary aluminum smelters to close by 2010;
A 30 percent decline in the number of steel producers at a cost of 100,000 jobs;
Domestic paper production to be displaced by imports;
A 20 percent reduction in the output of petroleum refiners; and
The closing of between 23 percent and 35 percent of the cement industry, which is significant because many cement plants are major employers in small communities.

Janet Yellen, chairman of the President's Council of Economic Advisers, testified before Congress that &quot;the effort to develop a model or a set of models that can give us a definitive answer as to the economic impacts of a given climate change policy is futile.&quot;38

The Treasury Department, however, recently raised concerns about the economic impact of the Administration's plan to achieve mandatory reductions in greenhouse gas emissions by establishing emissions budgets for the UNFCCC parties and allowing them to buy and sell emissions rights among themselves. It is also concerned about the amount the United States would have to pay for emitting carbon dioxide and about the potential financial costs of purchasing permits.39 Regardless of how the Administration chooses to implement the emissions targets, it will be a no-win proposition for the U.S. economy.

37 Cheryl Hogue, &quot;Raising Energy Prices Dramatically Would Harm Six U.S. Industries, DOE Finds,&quot; Bureau of National Affairs, July 15, 1997.

38 James M. Sheehan, &quot;Economies Be Damned,&quot; ecologic, July/August 1997, p. 15.

39 &quot;Treasury Officials Cast Doubt on Key Element of White House Climate Plan,&quot; Inside EPA, Vol. 18, No. 39 (September 26, 1997), p. 8.




 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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Etech,

If you open up to CNN or the Discovery channel every now and then, you would have no trouble finding evidence for what I described. Of course you have the right to refuse to believe it, since I'm not giving any supporting URLS, but if you deny somethining I said, like the widening ozone hole, you will be laughed at. I'll go digging for them later when I have time. Meanwhile, please address, if you wish to make your Kyoto argument easier to comprehend for feebleminded folk such as myself, - my earlier post.



<< A person might &quot;educate&quot; oneself on what the Kyoto treaty is, but see, if you have an ounce of reason driven by the &quot;heart&quot; described in your sig, you'd have a vague idea why Kyoto makes sense. As Soapdish mentioned, you're too narrowminded to follow anything outside of 3rd grade logic. Why should we possibly even think about obligating ourselves to the hardships involved in reducing emmissions when our neighbors don't have to? Are you so used to your rigid apathetic pridefully &quot;American&quot; perspective that you refuse to openly recognize that we as Americans have all been dealt a hand far better than others? Because you know, that if you and the other conservatives openly admit such an obvious point, it leaves only one right thing to do - to concede some of your rights and your freedoms, for the sake of those less fortunate; in this case, by not demanding that they match your contributions.

You may also recall, the other well-known sticking point was regarding pollution credits. Didn't we balk at the idea of not being able to sell or trade those things? Another piece of evidence that big corps are sticking their collective paws up dubya's arse... And we're just along for the ride.

I'll say it again. there's nothing wrong with being conservative, but to follow dubya's line of reasoning, you've got to be too proud and arrogant a redneck to even consider the possibility that the livelihood of someone living outside the US can possibly be of any significance.
>>

 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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<< That little peckerhead hasn't done a damn thing since shooting his mouth off on that one. The marketplace and public opinion has taken care of the oil and gas prices. He could have done what he said,but that would have enterfered with the oil companies raking in the largest profits and margins in the history of oil production. It's called paying back your chits for getting elected. Hell,its still going on. The only ones who don't see that are these myopic apologists for the republican poster boy. >>



Okay, now i'm confused... if Bush is, as so many of his opponents contend, in the pocket of 'big oil,' then why do we have this thread running concurrently with this one, entitled 'gas prices plummeting' ?
Or is it just another scheme for big oil to pad their profits by bringing prices at the pump down? :confused:

If you're going to accuse someone of something, you should at least be consistent, so will Bush get credit now for bringing gas prices down, since you said initially that he was puppet of the energy industry?
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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<< I repeat, Is it better to spend the money and resources on CO2 reductions rather than other beneficial projects until it is proven that is the best use for the money? >>



Sorry for not addressing this. Thats true, if you have your head in the sand and believe there's no impending problems on the horizon for your grandchildren to deal with. And of course, why would you? If republicans ever cared about the future the centerpiece of dubya's perfect plan wouldn't be a bunch of glorified upperclass tax cuts.

But back to your logic. Along the same lines, you can make the case that since health care is more important than education which is more important than the military. So anytime we're not spending 100% of our tax dollars on health care, we're wasting resources, right?
 

tm37

Lifer
Jan 24, 2001
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OK I came in late and was GOING to read the entire thread I got this far and now I must respond... I will continue to read as well..




<< Don't you think for one instance that Enron would have pulled the crap they did with Cali if they hadn't thought that since Bush-Lite was their man, they could get away with it. Hopefully, what they reap they will sow, and maybe down will come the POS compassionate conservatives. >>



Ok This is what you get for reading the headline and not the story. Do you know why ENRON was charging like $1600 a MEGAWh? To pay the EPA FINES! Thats right that number that was bantered about by Gray (not black or white just gray) Davis was because Mr. Davis told Enron they had to run a Pulluting plant full time but he Would not WAIVE (Or ask for the fines to be waived) the fines. Enron computed the amount of the fines and divided by the number of MWhs produced and WALLA!



<< and on another note: we probably wouldn't have had a probelm like war in the mid-east if reagan had managed to not fund both iraq and iran. iraq at the time of the gulf war had the third largeest army in the world. who do you think funded that one? whose fault is that one? hmm. >>



Ok Yes the US sold arms to IRAN and yes they sold intelligence on how to defeat those arms to IRAQ. The USSR was doing the same thing in reverse! This was one of the most intelegent forien policy thing EVER DONE. It provide money to The US (which was funneled to the CONRTAS), and most imprtantly it ensured that neither Iottah(no clue how to spell) or SADDAM would control the region. It also kept a steady stream of CHEAP Oil Flowing into our gas tanks! When did the IRAN/Iraq War END? Shortly after IRAN CONTRA! Hmmmm.... I think If you are dealling with the WACCOS overthere this was a SAFE EFFECTIVE way to deal with them.

I will now read ON..............
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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busmaster1, I thought that was just more liberal rhetoric and ignored it as such.

Take out the rhetoric, leave the idiot Soapdish comments out of the discussion and I will be glad to discuss this issue at length.

I'll say it again. there's nothing wrong with being conservative, but to follow dubya's line of reasoning, you've got to be too proud and arrogant a redneck to even consider the possibility that the livelihood of someone living outside the US can possibly be of any significance.

Your reasoning does not make sense. If global warming is a real phenomenon.then it will also affect the US and everyone in it. Therefore if the people that are not crying that the sky is falling over this are wrong they have just as much to lose as the people that are. Look at it from another viewpoint, do the people pushing this agenda have much to gain if the US adopts the Kyoto treaty. I think you will find the answer is yes.


But back to your logic. Along the same lines, you can make the case that since health care is more important than education which is more important than the military. So anytime we're not spending 100% of our tax dollars on health care, we're wasting resources, right?

There are recognizable benifits from spending money on the military, health care and education. It has not been proven that there will be any benifit from reducing CO2.
You can make that case, that is not what I said or implied. Try to keep on track here.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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<< << That little peckerhead hasn't done a damn thing since shooting his mouth off on that one. The marketplace and public opinion has taken care of the oil and gas prices. He could have done what he said,but that would have enterfered with the oil companies raking in the largest profits and margins in the history of oil production. It's called paying back your chits for getting elected. Hell,its still going on. The only ones who don't see that are these myopic apologists for the republican poster boy. >>

Okay, now i'm confused... if Bush is, as so many of his opponents contend, in the pocket of 'big oil,' then why do we have this thread running concurrently with this one, entitled 'gas prices plummeting' ?
Or is it just another scheme for big oil to pad their profits by bringing prices at the pump down?

If you're going to accuse someone of something, you should at least be consistent, so will Bush get credit now for bringing gas prices down, since you said initially that he was puppet of the energy industry?
>>



Okay... Is Defhead the author of that quote above? Cuz he's the one who wrote anything remotely related to what we're discussing here... If he's not, and even if he is, how do you make a blanket statement that we're not being consistent when none of us are even in that thread?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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<< Along the same lines, you can make the case that since health care is more important than education which is more important than the military. >>



Realistically, you have no case, since defense is the only one of those 3 which the Federal government is expressly permitted by the Constitution to spend money on. By application of the Tenth Amendment, the Feds should not be spending so much as a dime on either healthcare or education. Do not go down that road of reasoning, you WILL lose.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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<< Okay... Is Defhead the author of that quote above? >>



It's from this thread... here's the full text.

Tuesday, July 03, 2001 7:47 PM

Tripleshot
Elite Member


sandorski

If we check the record,GW ran on a platform he created with a plan to deal with opec because he knows how to deal with oil barons. He was goingto use tough talk to get the US out of the oil problem and high prices. That was very important in his campaign becuse Clinton raided the reserve for 30 million barrels to try and bring down prices. That little peckerhead hasn't done a damn thing since shooting his mouth off on that one. The marketplace and public opinion has taken care of the oil and gas prices. He could have done what he said,but that would have enterfered with the oil companies raking in the largest profits and margins in the history of oil production. It's called paying back your chits for getting elected. Hell,its still going on. The only ones who don't see that are these myopic apologists for the republican poster boy.
 

Capn

Platinum Member
Jun 27, 2000
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Seeing as Bush's ratings are better than Clinton's ratings for the same time period after their election I'd say no.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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<< Realistically, you have no case, since defense is the only one of those 3 which the Federal government is expressly permitted by the Constitution to spend money on. By application of the Tenth Amendment, the Feds should not be spending so much as a dime on either healthcare or education. Do not go down that road of reasoning, you WILL lose.

>>



If you can ever figure out how to read a whole post before blabbering, you'll see I wasn't making that case. I'm making a fictional generalization based on the previous author's premise. And I was purposely being presumptuous to make a point.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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busmaster1
You may also recall, the other well-known sticking point was regarding pollution credits. Didn't we balk at the idea of not being able to sell or trade those things? Another piece of evidence that big corps are sticking their collective paws up dubya's arse... And we're just along for the ride.

I forgot, how does pollution credits provide a &quot;piece of evidence that big corps are sticking their collective paws up dubya's arse&quot; ?

Is that another jab at energy companies and a nice little bit of unproven innuendo or what? You apparently do not even know if we &quot;balked&quot; at not being able to sell them but are ready to use that to prove some unfounded rumor. Interesting.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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<< Therefore if the people that are not crying that the sky is falling over this are wrong they have just as much to lose as the people that are. >>



True. But for starters, as long as you consider my initial question, which I consider to be my fundamental argument, &quot;rhetoric&quot;, we will never be on the same page. Not saying that I'm definitely right, but just that we won't be on the same page.

Having said that I'll still make my argument: Yes, they will have just as much to lose. Apologies if I misinterpreted your argument, but I took &quot;those that are not crying that the sky is falling&quot; to be the polluters, and in this case, China and India, for example. They are in a more desparate situation then us, but I guess everything is relative...

 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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<< Is that another jab at energy companies and a nice little bit of unproven innuendo or what? You apparently do not even know if we &quot;balked&quot; at not being able to sell them but are ready to use that to prove some unfounded rumor. Interesting. >>



Etech, admittedly I'm too tired and lazy to go digging around for stuff we've both read at some point to make my argument. So yes, you have the right to say what you will. But the test of the matter is, are you willing to make a strong argument for the opposite of mine? That large oil and energy companies have nothing to do with the Kyoto decision, and had no influence based on their feelings toward the pollution credits?

Going to sleep... its been fun. See ya in the morn...
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Etech: Hmm, seems I misunderstood the US(and Britains) recent decision regarding Iraqi sanctions, I henceforth retract the statement,
Anyone wonder why the US government is now begging Saddam Hussien to produce more oil?
 

BlockSender

Member
Jun 4, 2001
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Well kids, this is what I learned today.

1) The Kyoto treaty isn't all the media has touted it up to be. It has its obvious faults and these &quot;predictions&quot; look pretty grim. If greenhouse gasses are an issue, we need to combat the problem. If greenhouse gasses are NOT an aparent problem, then we should stop sandblasting our national monuments that turn black from auto emmisions because they arent really being damaged. The Acid rainfall's in North American forest regions that are killing millions of acres of pine trees really aren't doing damage either. And the small matter of a threat of global warming should be completely discounted.
However, if the POSSIBILITY -- possibility mind you -- (repeated twice for extra effect) exists for there to be an adverse affect on the environment thus far because of human pollutants and disrespect for the earth, we SHOULD adopt some kind of pro-active approach to combating this &quot;problem.&quot; Don't you think? Not drop out the window like the victim of a plague? I for one would like to see SOME kind of treaty made between nations to agree to research further the possibilities, to develop new technologies that are safer and that do not contaminate and pollute and to make them economically feasable. We all feel very comfortable right now with 3 computers in each house, 2 autos in each garage, and 1.9 children in our gas guzzeling SUV's. Perhaps it is time we stop our incessant greed for more than we need. Our excessive lifestyle in the US is nice but if it comes at the cost of other peoples lives, and the adversity it will cause for our grandchildren, we should act now to stop any further detriment to their future as well as our own.

2) I have learned that in the Reagan administration, receipts doubled! and Government expenditures MORE THAN DOUBLED! And during the Bush Sr. administration the national annual deficit tripled. (-110.7 -170.3 -223.1 -302.5; 89 90 91 92 respectively) And then to top that, during the Clinton era, the national expenditures went up less than 50% while receipts rose by a figure of 80%. Bringing our national deficit to a national surplus. (-272.7 -203.7 -176.7 -115.4 -22.3 90.7 174.4 311.4; 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 00 respectively.)
It also shows that during each year, the annual summation of receipts surpassed spending by no less than 30 billion per year at its worst and over 150 billion at its best. I knew things were good but I never saw the figures to back up the feeling.

3) Gas prices have come down (to their lowest in 2 years...) *smile* Thanks to whoever did that one; Republican or Democrat or Saudi Arabian or Santa.

4) European opinion of the presidency is immensely anti-GW because of a lack of foreign diplomacy. (Just pick up an issue of &quot;The Economist&quot;) You conservative agenda supporters in here attack this issue all you like but I don't think anything you can say will PROVE this otherwise.

5) I realized how important foreign diplomacy IS to the economic well-being of our nation. Whether it is helping to stop wars, or simply apologizing to china for murdering a bunch of students with a submarine. And perhaps China has been testing us, as have many nations. If this is the case then we need to deal with that, rather than testing THEM with another nuclear arms race.

6) Tax dollars are important. NO..Don't argue with me. Your tax dollars are put to SOME good use so shut the hell up. The spending needs to be REFORMED rather than cut and refunded.

7) &quot;Figures can't lie, but liars can figure&quot;

8) Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot

9) Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.

10) No matter how many times you show someone the truth, the facts, the figures, and their own ignorance, the battle of stupidity can be won only by teaching someone to understand that no matter how right you are, you can always be wrong, and it takes a strong minded person to figure that out.

Just a few things I wanted to straighten up throughout the forum:

Someone said &quot;Without rich people you would be poor!&quot;
let me clarify that.
(and you can quote me) Without rich people there would not be poor people. This is a Ying-Yang situation. Without good, there is no evil. And without taxes, there are no public welfare programs (and i speak not of &quot;THE welfare program,&quot; but in the well-being sense).

I don't remember who it was, but you made a mental note to yourself that I should not be incharge of your financial matters because my confidence came not from economic indicators but from Clintons charisma. Perhaps you don't understand that his charisma acted as an economic indicator as well. If you know ANYTHING about the stock market, you know that it is volatile and is adversely affected by changes to the status quo. When a powerful leader such as the president starts downtalking the economic status of the country and warns of impending crashes and looming slowdowns, it begins to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't think that opinion would warrent you to say such a thing about me. Your statement was a personal attack and it was a distorted misinterpretation of what I had to say.

And one last thing. I don't appreciate people's vulgarity when describing our Former President Clinton. It is no more fair to display your malevolence to him as it is to manifest belligerent generalizations about Bush Jr. To add to that I find personal attacks to be quite discrediting to ones argument and can only stile ones effort to make an intelligent debate. The next time we post this topic &quot;Is GW doin good?&quot; I sincerely hope it will carry with it more respect than this thread did. I also hope that people will carry a higher consideration for anothers opinions.
I had fun.