So, if GM gets rid of Pontiac, Saturn, and Saab what do you keep and what do you call it?

[Squisher]

From this thread in P&N

Seeing how you guys know more about what models are just re-badges and which are any good, I figured this would make for some interesting fodder.

We know they'll keep the G8 do they make it a chevy or a buick and the name G8 really doesn't suit either division.

 

[MikeMike]

The G8 MIGHT become the next gen Impala for Chevy.
G3 gone
G5 gone (cobalt)
G6 gone (malibu sorta)
Torrent gone (equinox)
Vibe might go to chevy, its manuf'd by TM so who knows.
Solstice gone (niche market vehicle, no longer needed)

Aura gone (malibu)
Astra gone (to expensive, low on power)
Outlook gone
Sky gone

Saab: all gone... however i believe they would rather sell Saab than just destroy it.

The names of the brands might be sold to chinese automakers so GM gets some sort of ROI, and then the chinese will be able o take advantage of an already known brand name.
Sky gone

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Astra gone (to expensive, low on power)

Funny you say that - the Astra is an import from the european division of GM. They build a super-fast version of the 2-door called the VXR with 240 horsepower. It is, if anything, severely overpowered.

 

[alfa147x]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Astra gone (to expensive, low on power)

Funny you say that - the Astra is an import from the european division of GM. They build a super-fast version of the 2-door called the VXR with 240 horsepower. It is, if anything, severely overpowered.

Opel ?

 

[MikeMike]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Astra gone (to expensive, low on power)

Funny you say that - the Astra is an import from the european division of GM. They build a super-fast version of the 2-door called the VXR with 240 horsepower. It is, if anything, severely overpowered.

yes, its an overpowered car, and it is the Vauxhall Astra VXR... but it isnt sold here, nor will it be. The exchange rates are way out of whack and it is a major issue for importing any vehicle.

Opel and Vauxhall are identical just in different countries.

the importation of the Astra is also the reason it is so expensive.

 

[CptCrunch]

Keep Chevrolet
Move cheap cars to Saturn or make it scion like, or drop it all together
Bring GMC under Chevy to make GMC Series trucks (like F-Series for Ford)
Drop pontiac, but bring G8 to Chevy as new Impala
Sell Saab
Drop buick
Complete re-work of Cadillac to make it more of a competitor

Those are my current recommendations, but we'll see what they will actually do.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE


yes, its an overpowered car, and it is the Vauxhall Astra VXR... but it isnt sold here, nor will it be. The exchange rates are way out of whack and it is a major issue for importing any vehicle.

Opel and Vauxhall are identical just in different countries.

the importation of the Astra is also the reason it is so expensive.

If you say "VXR", people will know what you're talking about. I'm aware that Vauxhall == Opel - they're both GM subsidiaries.

I beg to differ about the cost of the VXR. In England, the Golf GTI costs over $3,000 more than the VXR; as such, I'm surprised that we can't get a $23k VXR in the states.

Of course, that would compete with the Cobalt SS, which is cheaper and likely handles better. GM has traded luxury for low price and speed, and is appealing to younger, more hardcore buyers wanting a hot econobox, offering a definite alternative to the slower, more expensive, but overall (IMO) much nicer mazdaspeed3.

I also disagree on the price. Slow as it may be, the Astra seems to be well made - far better than any other Saturn I've been in, and the rear legroom is impressive - better than a Focus or Mazda3. However, the cheaper, faster, and more reliable Mazda3 is a better car for the money - and you can get the slow version of the Nissan Verso (which is, admittedly, a nasty car) for under $10k. I also remember it having annoyingly high door sills.

Originally posted by: CptCrunch
Keep Chevrolet
Move cheap cars to Saturn or make it scion like, or drop it all together
Bring GMC under Chevy to make GMC Series trucks (like F-Series for Ford)
Drop pontiac, but bring G8 to Chevy as new Impala
Sell Saab
Drop buick
Complete re-work of Cadillac to make it more of a competitor

Those are my current recommendations, but we'll see what they will actually do.

Sensible ideas all around. Saturn should have the cheap cars (the Aveo, for example), Chevy should sell cars that are oriented towards performance, price, and utility over luxury (the G8 is a good choice - MUCH better than the FWD rubbish they call an Impala now), and Pontiac just confuses people too much. I'd keep Buick as a "budget luxury" line, though - perhaps you could move the G5 over to Chevy or Saturn but sell the G6 as a more upscale car.

Saab, however, is a stupid brand - it just seems to be full of econoboxes with tiny turbos and huge pricetags. I'd try and sell it to Rutan Tata. He's buying everything else these days - why not the famed maker of not-quite-sports-cars?

Cadillac is moving in the right direction very quickly. While the Escalade is outmoded, the XLR is a bit poor, the CTS - the first all-new Cadillac in a long time - is a very good car. The engines are good, the handling is good, the ride comfort is good, and the price is very good. Currently, Cadillac only has two things to worry about:

1. Nobody has any money for luxury cars, and
2. Hyundai is moving in on CTS territory quite quickly with the Genesis which offers a big V8 for only about $1500 more than a Cadillac with a V6.

What I want to buy right now would fall squarely in the "buick" range - something small, cheap, and practical with very good ride quality and very comfy seats. I have bad joints, and if I have to choose between handling in comfort (which you always do in a sub-$25k car), I'll pick the option that won't leave me sore every morning.

 

[thomsbrain]

If they're smart, they'll keep the G8, Sky, and 9-5.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Originally posted by: Cheesehead

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Astra gone (to expensive, low on power)

Funny you say that - the Astra is an import from the european division of GM. They build a super-fast version of the 2-door called the VXR with 240 horsepower. It is, if anything, severely overpowered.

yes, its an overpowered car, and it is the Vauxhall Astra VXR... but it isnt sold here, nor will it be. The exchange rates are way out of whack and it is a major issue for importing any vehicle.

Opel and Vauxhall are identical just in different countries.

the importation of the Astra is also the reason it is so expensive.

I'd say just give it a little time. The Astra is a great little car. GM was just in a real rush to get the thing over here, so the fastest way was to import it from Belgium. Let's face it, GM has had crap for compacts. It will be nice once they get the Cruze into production. Other than hybrids, it should have one of the highest mpg and, finally, good build quality.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: Strk
I'd say just give it a little time. The Astra is a great little car. GM was just in a real rush to get the thing over here, so the fastest way was to import it from Belgium. Let's face it, GM has had crap for compacts. It will be nice once they get the Cruze into production. Other than hybrids, it should have one of the highest mpg and, finally, good build quality.

Shipping a Geo from here to Belgium costs around $5,000. While this would be much lower if you're chartering an entire boat to carry Astras, it's still adding a good chunk to the price.

That said, while the Astra is good, the Mazda3 (and euro-spec Focus) is better.

 

[futuristicmonkey]

They should bring back the Monte Carlo....but with RWD!

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: futuristicmonkey
They should bring back the Monte Carlo....but with RWD!

Your wish is granted!

It is called the Camaro. You can get it quite cheaply with a 306HP V6, or for a little bit more, a 6.2 liter version of the Monte Carlo SS V8 producing 412 horsepower.

And it's going on sale in about six months.

 

[Pariah]

Pontiac is doing quite well right now, not sure why they would try to get rid of it. Saab never fit in with GM, not sure why they ever acquired it. Let it go. Buick has no real market (semi luxury for old people?), it should just be dropped. Everything else should be kept and given a distinct market.

Chevy - mainstream cars and trucks, pretty much what it is now minus Corvette
Cadillac - luxury brand
Buick - good bye
Saturn - converted to Scion competitor. small, cheap and customizable cars for young people
Pontiac (Holden Jr) - performance division, all RWD, G8, Solstice, G8 ST, import the coupe 60, shift Corvette here, might want to add a small RWD sedan though I see nothing in the GM portfolio that could just be slotted in currently
Saab - gone
Hummer - sell it if you can, if not just drop it. Despite all the public rioting over Hummer, it's not high enough volume to be hurting GM. There will always be a market for such vehicle, but it isn't large enough for a company like GM to be in it.
GMC - gone


The end result is 4 GM brands all with unique non-overlapping target markets that cover all the major demographics.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: Pariah
Pontiac is doing quite well right now, not sure why they would try to get rid of it. Saab never fit in with GM, not sure why they ever acquired it. Let it go. Buick has no real market (semi luxury for old people?), it should just be dropped. Everything else should be kept and given a distinct market.

Cadillac makes fast luxury cars. Buick can make slow luxury cars. Quite a lot of people like that sort of thing (notably me - and I'm still a student!), and a Buick could compete with semi-luxury cars like the Honda Accord or Toyota Avalon.

Originally posted by: Pariah


Chevy - mainstream cars and trucks, pretty much what it is now minus Corvette

Pontiac (Holden Jr) - performance division, all RWD, G8, Solstice, G8 ST, import the coupe 60, shift Corvette here, might want to add a small RWD sedan though I see nothing in the GM portfolio that could just be slotted in currently

Chevrolet has two massively popular makes of car associated with it: The Corvette and the Camaro. Both of these have been around for decades, and both of them would likely lose a lot of sales if they stopped being Chevrolets.

On the other hand, Pontiac has a long tradition of nasty plastic econoboxes with either no power or horrible torque steer. The G8 could be de-uglified and sold as a Monte Carlo (another Chevy model with positive associations) and would sell all the better for it.

The Sky/Solstice should stick to being a Saturn.

 

[bruceb]

it would, in my view, be a huge mistake to move the GM flagship sports car , the Corvette, out of the Chevrolet division.
It started there and should stay there, as it is the best sports car GM ever made, with the Camaro / Firebirds a close second.
The GTO (recent models) and the G8 are reasonably well made, needing only some minor tweaks for better handing and
durability on the GTO.

 

[BlackTigers]

No way in hell would GM shift the Vette or Camaro from Chevy.

I like the idea of turning Saturn into a Scion competitor, though.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Keep the G8, G8 ST, and the Solstice/Sky.

 

[Pariah]

There is nothing in the Buick stable that should appeal to anyone that isn't either a senior citizen or Chinese.

Pontiac's heritage is as the performance division of GM. It got away from that in the 80's, and expecially the 90's. It was returning to its roots in recent years with the G8, Solstice and GTO. Bob Lutz had said the division was going to be revived with an all RWD lineup and be positioned as the poor man's BMW. Then gas spiked for a few months and everything got trashed. They're not going to go back to that plan, but they should. It made perfect sense.

As for shifting Corvette to another brand. People would get over it. No one buys a Chevrolet Corvette, they buy a Corvette. It's basically a brand unto itself. So long as it stays under GM which means the same people are designing and building it, sale will not in anyway be effected. Remember, that the 2004 GTO didn't have the word Pontiac anywhere on the vehicle, likely by accident, so its not like GM has to plaster Pontiac all over the Corvette.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: Pariah
There is nothing in the Buick stable that should appeal to anyone that isn't either a senior citizen or Chinese.

Pontiac's heritage is as the performance division of GM. It got away from that in the 80's, and expecially the 90's. It was returning to its roots in recent years with the G8, Solstice and GTO. Bob Lutz had said the division was going to be revived with an all RWD lineup and be positioned as the poor man's BMW. Then gas spiked for a few months and everything got trashed. They're not going to go back to that plan, but they should. It made perfect sense.

As for shifting Corvette to another brand. People would get over it. No one buys a Chevrolet Corvette, they buy a Corvette. It's basically a brand unto itself. So long as it stays under GM which means the same people are designing and building it, sale will not in anyway be effected. Remember, that the 2004 GTO didn't have the word Pontiac anywhere on the vehicle, likely by accident, so its not like GM has to plaster Pontiac all over the Corvette.

WTH?! I'm British and I can tell you right now if you remove the bow-tie from the Corvette you might as well just glue a Daewoo badge on there and call it the Turd Twister.

 

[Pariah]

Yea, God forbid GM moved Corvette from the prestigise and world respected and covetted Chevrolet badge. All the brands under the Big 3 have been getting hammered daily on these boards and in the news with frequent calls to just let them all fail. Now the only reason Corvette is any good is because it has a Chevrolet badge on the hood? What alternate universe have I unknowingly been transferred to?

GM has already announced the delay of the next generation Corvette due to the uncertainty of the market (and with little guarantee the company would still exist when the planned date arrived anyway), and though they are claiming it will continue on despite the stricter CAFE standards, it would seem quite reasonable to assume that the ZR1 will be the pinnacle of Corvette for possibly ever. If the next generation Corvette ends up as watered down as it sounds possible, it won't be a change of badge that kills off sales.

Just to add. If the ZR1 was sold under the Daewoo badge tomorrow, and I had the money to buy one, I'd still get one in a heart beat. I'm not shallow or stuck up enough to get hung up on the badge on the hood. If the product is worth my money, I don't care who made it.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: Pariah
There is nothing in the Buick stable that should appeal to anyone that isn't either a senior citizen or Chinese.

Pontiac's heritage is as the performance division of GM. It got away from that in the 80's, and expecially the 90's. It was returning to its roots in recent years with the G8, Solstice and GTO. Bob Lutz had said the division was going to be revived with an all RWD lineup and be positioned as the poor man's BMW. Then gas spiked for a few months and everything got trashed. They're not going to go back to that plan, but they should. It made perfect sense.

As for shifting Corvette to another brand. People would get over it. No one buys a Chevrolet Corvette, they buy a Corvette. It's basically a brand unto itself. So long as it stays under GM which means the same people are designing and building it, sale will not in anyway be effected. Remember, that the 2004 GTO didn't have the word Pontiac anywhere on the vehicle, likely by accident, so its not like GM has to plaster Pontiac all over the Corvette.

WTH?! I'm British and I can tell you right now if you remove the bow-tie from the Corvette you might as well just glue a Daewoo badge on there and call it the Turd Twister.

If they do anything regarding branding the Corvette, I'd say call it the Corvette alone rather than calling it anything else. Just let it be it's own product line. (a la Hummer, but with less suck)

 

[ElFenix]

apparently GM is turning pontiac back into the uglified chevy it has been the last 25+ years. stupid move. you can't sell the same car 4 different ways (chevy, buick, saturn, pontiac)

 

[LOUISSSSS]

i dont think theres anything they can do to help them... renaming cars or re-badging them isn't going to get them any sales.
they need to make GOOD cars. the only people that really buy GM cars are the "american pride" people that refuse to buy the better accord or camry. now before i get flamed and banned or kicked off the island i say they are better because MORE AMERICANS PEOPLE BUY THEM. most people are rational and will consider other brands of cars that aren't "ALL AMERICAN."

in the end, GM needs to MAKE BETTER CARS. or die

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

WTH?! I'm British and I can tell you right now if you remove the bow-tie from the Corvette you might as well just glue a Daewoo badge on there and call it the Turd Twister.

I was going to write a long and complicated response to that statement, but I like yours better.

Originally posted by: Pariah
There is nothing in the Buick stable that should appeal to anyone that isn't either a senior citizen or Chinese.

If a Buick managed the same reliability and economy as an Avalon (basically a Buick with a Japanese engine and transmission), I would buy one. And I'm a student.

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS


in the end, GM needs to MAKE BETTER CARS. or die

The new Corvette ZR-1 will keep pace with a Ferrari 599 - the one with the Enzo engine.

The Cadillac CTS is strongly competitive with its BMW counterparts, and the supercharged version of the CTS-V is basically an M5 without all the stupid gadgets, a much lower pricetag, and 56 more horsepower.

The Pontiac G8 GXP is big, fast, and handles well. It's not hugely luxurious, but it's not very expensive, either.

The new Camaro is reasonably priced, practical, and even the base model has a 24-valve direct-injected 306HP V6. (You don't normally get direct injection on anything but luxury cars - which is not surprising, considering that the engine and gearbox came from the CTS.)

The new Astra is pretty good.

The Pontiac Vibe is excellent. It's a Toyota, admittedly...but it's good!

 

[EvilHorace]

Buick needs to go and I've never understood why GM sells both GMC and Chevy Trucks as to me, they're the same. Way back when, like 40 yrs ago, GM could sell all those lines and they use to be more different than they eventually became but today, many are exactly the same vehicles with slightly different appearances.