Rubycon
Madame President
- Aug 10, 2005
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The water is grounded so there would be lots of electrolysis around the wire.
Now if the water was completely isolated and could be charged to the potential of the wire placed in the column, people would be pissing in the pool as they grabbed a grounded ladder to get out, for example. :laugh:
Originally posted by: MS Dawn
The water is grounded so there would be lots of electrolysis around the wire.
Now if the water was completely isolated and could be charged to the potential of the wire placed in the column, people would be pissing in the pool as they grabbed a grounded ladder to get out, for example. :laugh:
Wait... since the water is already grounded through the earth, you wouldn't even need a ground wire in there. If a hot wire fell into the pool, wouldn't that create a short circuit between the wire and the ground, effectively shocking anyone in the pool?
No.Originally posted by: Special K
Originally posted by: MS Dawn
The water is grounded so there would be lots of electrolysis around the wire.
Now if the water was completely isolated and could be charged to the potential of the wire placed in the column, people would be pissing in the pool as they grabbed a grounded ladder to get out, for example. :laugh:
Wait... since the water is already grounded through the earth, you wouldn't even need a ground wire in there. If a hot wire fell into the pool, wouldn't that create a short circuit between the wire and the ground, effectively shocking anyone in the pool?
Remember, electricity takes the path of least resistance. The current would be going through the water to ground, not through the water, through you and to ground.
Originally posted by: Eli
No.Originally posted by: Special K
Originally posted by: MS Dawn
The water is grounded so there would be lots of electrolysis around the wire.
Now if the water was completely isolated and could be charged to the potential of the wire placed in the column, people would be pissing in the pool as they grabbed a grounded ladder to get out, for example. :laugh:
Wait... since the water is already grounded through the earth, you wouldn't even need a ground wire in there. If a hot wire fell into the pool, wouldn't that create a short circuit between the wire and the ground, effectively shocking anyone in the pool?
Remember, electricity takes the path of least resistance. The current would be going through the water to ground, not through the water, through you and to ground.
Right, but if you have a bunch of resistors in parallel (which would be a crude approximation to a bunch of people in the pool), it's not like all of the current goes down the path of least resistance, and none goes down the paths of higher resistance. Some current will always flow down the higher resistance paths according to the equation, and wet skin has a pretty low resistance, so I figured you would still get shocked.
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
Originally posted by: MS Dawn
Yes the current is the determining factor on the immediate physiological effects. Consider I²R. What really determines that current flow is the overall resistance in the path of flow. It's quite variable and often rather high on a human body. Water, mixed with salts from perspiration, will lower this value tremendously allowing much more current and heat to be produced tremendously augmenting the damage.
This is why you don't play with toasters in the bathtub.
theoretically, if the tub were filled with 100% distilled water - PURE H2O (and no contaminants were introduced) - then you'd be fine
Edit: nm I was too slow with the reply
Rubycon
Madame President
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Ah the stray current argument - the human perception to such levels is quite low. If the source has a strong enough pressure - say a 1500MCM 345kV transmission line would happen to be a part of your pool (or a lightning strike) then yes you are going to feel that.
Shocked to the level of losing bladder control from a tv set tossed in the pool? Not likely. If there's a GFCI protecting the outlet (like there's SUPPOSED to be!) then it will trip within 1/40 second and you can grab the tv and throw it back at the person that threw it there. It's better to use a tangential launch - if you're strong enough - get the tv going as fast as possible by swinging it by the power cord and let it go at the tosser. Be sure to yell "Look! You're ON TV!" at time of launch for best effect. :laugh:
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
Originally posted by: MS Dawn
Yes the current is the determining factor on the immediate physiological effects. Consider I²R. What really determines that current flow is the overall resistance in the path of flow. It's quite variable and often rather high on a human body. Water, mixed with salts from perspiration, will lower this value tremendously allowing much more current and heat to be produced tremendously augmenting the damage.
This is why you don't play with toasters in the bathtub.
theoretically, if the tub were filled with 100% distilled water - PURE H2O (and no contaminants were introduced) - then you'd be fine
Actually, water disassociates to H+ and OH- at 10^-14 M, which is the basis of the pH scale. So, while it is indeed a very poor conductor, it isn't a pure insulator either.
As for voltage/amperage...electricity seems to be particularly difficult stuff to predict. What should have been a fatal shock will leave someone unharmed, and what should have been a weak shock will kill someone else. There are a LOT of variables, the path the power takes being just as important as voltage/amperage.
Also, since your body's resistance is HIGHLY dependent on a number of factors, it's not entirely accurate to list the voltage and possible amperage supply of a line as it may not be pushing the full amount through your body. I once got shocked by a welder (there was a crack in the line, which I hadn't seen). It was quite startling, but if it had actually pushed hundreds of amps through my body, I don't think I'd be around to talk about it.
Originally posted by: MS Dawn
Ah the stray current argument - the human perception to such levels is quite low. If the source has a strong enough pressure - say a 1500MCM 345kV transmission line would happen to be a part of your pool (or a lightning strike) then yes you are going to feel that.
Shocked to the level of losing bladder control from a tv set tossed in the pool? Not likely. If there's a GFCI protecting the outlet (like there's SUPPOSED to be!) then it will trip within 1/40 second and you can grab the tv and throw it back at the person that threw it there. It's better to use a tangential launch - if you're strong enough - get the tv going as fast as possible by swinging it by the power cord and let it go at the tosser. Be sure to yell "Look! You're ON TV!" at time of launch for best effect. :laugh:
Does this mean if you had a TV or radio fall in your bathtub, you wouldn't necessarily be electrocuted to death like they always show in the movies? would it be worse than getting shocked while in the swimming pool since the volume of water is much less, implying a greater resistance in parallel with your body (= more current through you).
Ika
Lifer
- Mar 22, 2006
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Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
Originally posted by: MS Dawn
Yes the current is the determining factor on the immediate physiological effects. Consider I²R. What really determines that current flow is the overall resistance in the path of flow. It's quite variable and often rather high on a human body. Water, mixed with salts from perspiration, will lower this value tremendously allowing much more current and heat to be produced tremendously augmenting the damage.
This is why you don't play with toasters in the bathtub.
theoretically, if the tub were filled with 100% distilled water - PURE H2O (and no contaminants were introduced) - then you'd be fine
This reminds me of an experiment I think Tom's Hardware did once - get an acrylic computer case, seal it up tight with silicone sealant, then put computer parts in it then fill it up with as pure water as possible (I think what they used was distilled water, though). They said it worked for about 5 minutes, then something shorted. They ended up using oil and it worked rather well.
Rubycon
Madame President
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There's no definitive answer to what will happen. Why not volunteer this for mythbusters? I bet most of you would if they said that girl knew CPR. :laugh:
As far as the movies go - rarely, if at all do you see what would really happen. Heck look every time they use a computer and listen to all those silly noises. :laugh:
[/quote]Not really..
Voltage doesen't matter, unless it's too low to pierce the resistance of your skin.
60V could kill you, so could 60,000V.. But only if the amperage is high enough.
12V, however, could not kill you regardless of amperage.. unless maybe you stuck it in your eyeballs or something.[/quote]
Ding ding...we have a winner. It's the amperage that gets you. Look in your breaker box inside your house. Your two pole 20A, 30A and 100A breakers will be much bigger than your 10A or 15A single ones. These are for appliances drawing the most amps such as 220v window A/C units, clothes dryers, etc...
Outside on your utility pole inside that breaker box you'll most likely find a 200A breaker in it, which wouldn't simply shock you....it would cook you from the inside out.
Voltage doesen't matter, unless it's too low to pierce the resistance of your skin.
60V could kill you, so could 60,000V.. But only if the amperage is high enough.
12V, however, could not kill you regardless of amperage.. unless maybe you stuck it in your eyeballs or something.[/quote]
Ding ding...we have a winner. It's the amperage that gets you. Look in your breaker box inside your house. Your two pole 20A, 30A and 100A breakers will be much bigger than your 10A or 15A single ones. These are for appliances drawing the most amps such as 220v window A/C units, clothes dryers, etc...
Outside on your utility pole inside that breaker box you'll most likely find a 200A breaker in it, which wouldn't simply shock you....it would cook you from the inside out.
You know what sucks is that exactly four years ago, I thought of using cooking oil for immersive cooling, just as a fun side project. But I never got around to doing it.
I might still have some sketches...maybe I should file for a patent and sue them
We've had this argument before. You cannot divest one from the other because they coexist, in proportion, simultaneously.
Are we talking AC voltage or DC? At what frequency, (kenneth) ? If you get into RF, 12volts at a modest amperage may just bite.
Give me 6,000 amps at 12volts and get the A-1, you're still BBQ if you get in that arc.
By the same token, If you get 12,000 volts, I daresay that .01amp will sting.
Everyone gets their panties knotted around Galvanic Skin Resistance, and forgets that spark arcs are hot, the surfaces they DO conduct between get hot and melt, and that BURNS are a common electrical injury as well. AND RF manifests itself as burns and that frequency can be a factor as well. This is the other dimension missed in the Voltage / Current discussions
You're right in that for a particular voltage, a certain amount of current would be necessary to cause harm, but once harm is done, the degree to which is academic.
It's not the volts that kill you, it's the AMPS!
BTW A little tip I learned LONG ago. When working with live voltage, always keep your left hand (if you are right handed) in your back pocket. What kills you is when the current travels across your chest trying find a ground and if your other hand is touching anything grounded, BAM, it stops your heart!
BTW A little tip I learned LONG ago. When working with live voltage, always keep your left hand (if you are right handed) in your back pocket. What kills you is when the current travels across your chest trying find a ground and if your other hand is touching anything grounded, BAM, it stops your heart!
Distilled water will not conduct more than few pico amps even at several thousand volts.
I know this for a fact. MY x-ray source anode is moreorless pure copper, operates at 10kV, and is DI water cooled.
BTW... people have died by electric shock from a car battery
I know this for a fact. MY x-ray source anode is moreorless pure copper, operates at 10kV, and is DI water cooled.
BTW... people have died by electric shock from a car battery
no, they have not.
Unless it was some freak accident where they were stabbed with knives hooked up to a battery, one on each side of the heart.. lol
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Not really..
Voltage doesen't matter, unless it's too low to pierce the resistance of your skin.
60V could kill you, so could 60,000V.. But only if the amperage is high enough.
12V, however, could not kill you regardless of amperage.. unless maybe you stuck it in your eyeballs or something.[/quote]
Ding ding...we have a winner. It's the amperage that gets you. Look in your breaker box inside your house. Your two pole 20A, 30A and 100A breakers will be much bigger than your 10A or 15A single ones. These are for appliances drawing the most amps such as 220v window A/C units, clothes dryers, etc...
Outside on your utility pole inside that breaker box you'll most likely find a 200A breaker in it, which wouldn't simply shock you....it would cook you from the inside out.[/quote]
The amps listed on the breaker are NOT the amount of amps going through the circuit. They are the amount of amps that the circuit is limited to. Death happens at MILLI-amps; so the breakers are irrelevant to electrocution safety.
Re: car batteries... people could be killed by the electrical system in a car, but not necessarily by the battery. (I haven't heard of specific cases where someone has actually been killed though.) Just because there's a 12 volt battery doesn't mean that much higher voltage doesn't exist elsewhere in the vehicle. The ignition coil, for example, jumps the voltage from 12 volts up into the 10's of thousands of volts (it varies from 15,000 to 35,000 volts).
And, once you break through the skin, the internal resistance of a body is incredibly low compared to the skin. I'd bet you actually could kill someone with current produced by a 12 volt battery, so long as the leads were inserted through the skin, say to a cut on each hand.
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