So I have before me the implementation of the repeal of DADT

[Nebor]

I have the training packet, "vignettes" (possible scenarios that may be encountered) and FAQ. This is supposed to be pushed down to line units and the entire force by June.

I've just read through it all, and it's kind of surprising how little is changing. Essentially no one can be kicked out for saying they're gay or engaging in homosexual behavior, and it can't be used as a basis for discrimination in recruiting.

BUT sexuality is NOT a protected class under Equal Opportunity, like gender, race, color and national origin. I was surprised by that choice.

Also soldiers will have no right to alternative living\working arrangements if they have a gay roommate that they are uncomfortable with. One of the vignettes is actually a shower scene.

 

[Throckmorton]

How can you not give soldiers alternate living arrangements? How does that make sense? What if we suddenly started forcing women to bunk with men?

 

[wuliheron]

How can you not give soldiers alternate living arrangements? How does that make sense? What if we suddenly started forcing women to bunk with men?

It's the military and, as they say, military intelligence is an oxymoron. Nor do they have to conform to any legal standards other then the UCMJ. You are the property of Uncle Sam as long as they have your ass and they can pretty much force you do whatever they please including charge a tank in your underwear.

 

[Nebor]

How can you not give soldiers alternate living arrangements? How does that make sense? What if we suddenly started forcing women to bunk with men?

Commanders may at their discretion change living arrangements, but the sexuality of the individuals involved is given no consideration, so the request for alternate quarters is treated as seriously as if the roommate were a snorer, unusually flatulent or just an asshole.

Also no service members will be allowed to leave the Army before completing their service obligation just because they disagree with the repeal of DADT.

Recruiters that have religious or personal problems recruiting gay recruits will be given a negative evaluation and reassigned if possible.

 

[classy]

Ain't nothing gonna change. If your gay and your commander doesn't like you because of it, your still gonna get bounced. There are so many ways to get the boot from the military and you have very little recourse. I believe my roomy was gay. I knew at least two of the guys in my flight was gay, lol. One of them tried out for special forces training during our boot. He made it through the 4th day I believe, been a few years, memory is not quite accurate. Good guy. They ain't gonna allow no flaming though and pda has always been off limits unless off base.

 

[classy]

I don't envision too many problems as long as it doesn't become the focus. Then it will be a problem. But I don't see it being no different then all the different religions you encounter on base.

 

[Thump553]

How can you not give soldiers alternate living arrangements? How does that make sense? What if we suddenly started forcing women to bunk with men?

Are you worried about catching gayness from them? Lots of us have had gay roommates, etc. If you aren't sexually interested in your roomie nothing happens-it's totally different than rooming hetersexual men and women together.

Overall this seems like a solid, commonsense policy.

 

[werepossum]

I have the training packet, "vignettes" (possible scenarios that may be encountered) and FAQ. This is supposed to be pushed down to line units and the entire force by June.

I've just read through it all, and it's kind of surprising how little is changing. Essentially no one can be kicked out for saying they're gay or engaging in homosexual behavior, and it can't be used as a basis for discrimination in recruiting.

BUT sexuality is NOT a protected class under Equal Opportunity, like gender, race, color and national origin. I was surprised by that choice.

Also soldiers will have no right to alternative living\working arrangements if they have a gay roommate that they are uncomfortable with. One of the vignettes is actually a shower scene.

Sounds about right to me. The biggest problem to me (a non-gay, non-serving civilian) of DADT seems to me to be the mandatory separation of gays who were not otherwise a discipline problem. In many cases squad/team/platoon members knew a person was gay and had no problem with it, but once that bit of knowledge came to the attention of "management" then the gay person had to be kicked out. Thus the military lost some highly capable, highly motivated members who were not causing problems.

I think in general that military members who do not wish to room with or serve with a gay should be accommodated where practical, but in many cases it won't be practical. So not making alternative living/working accommodation a right seems only practical, especially when a member cannot request alternative living/working accommodation for other things (race, religion, etc.) that offend them.

 

[jonks]

Hey gays, the GOP still doesn't like you very much.

Pawlenty and Huckabee have both come out and said they'd support reinstatement of DADT if elected president. Huck likes to cite to what the "soldiers want", except a) we have civilian control of the military, b) the US public overwhelmingly supported repeal of DADT, c) we didn't care that soldiers wanted racially segregated units when we threw that out, and d) the majority of soldiers actually surveyed by the pentagon said gay soldiers didn't affect unit cohesion.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Politics/Default.aspx?id=1316204

Anything else we should get the ok on from the troops before issuing them orders Huck?

Something like 30% of gays still vote republican. I don't get it. I was born jewish and I couldn't vote for an anti-semite even if I agreed with his fiscal and foreign policy.

To anticipate the "Obama is against gay marriage" inevitable post, I'd offer that 1) I don't buy that he actually is, and 2) he's recently stated several times that his thoughts on gay marriage are "evolving". Sounds like a setup for a 2nd term flip-flop on that issue.

 

[zsdersw]

Hey gays, the GOP still doesn't like you very much.

Pawlenty and Huckabee have both come out and said they'd support reinstatement of DADT if elected president. Huck likes to cite to what the "soldiers want", except a) we have civilian control of the military, b) the US public overwhelmingly supported repeal of DADT, c) we didn't care that soldiers wanted racially segregated units when we threw that out, and d) the majority of soldiers actually surveyed by the pentagon said gay soldiers didn't affect unit cohesion.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Politics/Default.aspx?id=1316204

Anything else we should get the ok on from the troops before issuing them orders Huck?

Something like 30% of gays still vote republican. I don't get it. I was born jewish and I couldn't vote for an anti-semite even if I agreed with his fiscal and foreign policy.

To anticipate the "Obama is against gay marriage" inevitable post, I'd offer that 1) I don't buy that he actually is, and 2) he's recently stated several times that his thoughts on gay marriage are "evolving". Sounds like a setup for a 2nd term flip-flop on that issue.

Yeah, the song-and-dance of Republican presidential candidates tripping over themselves to appease the religious conservatives who comprise the base of the party is in full swing.

 

[zsdersw]

Ain't nothing gonna change. If your gay and your commander doesn't like you because of it, your still gonna get bounced. There are so many ways to get the boot from the military and you have very little recourse. I believe my roomy was gay. I knew at least two of the guys in my flight was gay, lol. One of them tried out for special forces training during our boot. He made it through the 4th day I believe, been a few years, memory is not quite accurate. Good guy. They ain't gonna allow no flaming though and pda has always been off limits unless off base.

Stereotypes are fun, but you look stupid when you rely on them.

Here's a clue for you: most gay men aren't "flaming", and those that are "flaming" are very unlikely to seek military service in the first place.

 

[Nebor]

Something like 30% of gays still vote republican. I don't get it. I was born jewish and I couldn't vote for an anti-semite even if I agreed with his fiscal and foreign policy.

For most gay people, they're a lot of other things before they're a gay person. They're a cop, pastry chef, soldier, conservative, pro-life, father, tax payer, etc. Gays just are not single issue voters. There's a correlation with their relatively high level of income and their voting republican.

 

[jonks]

Yeah, the song-and-dance of Republican presidential candidates tripping over themselves to appease the religious conservatives who comprise the base of the party is in full swing.

Run to the extremes during the primary and the center on the general eh? The stupid part is even most conservative voters approved of DADT repeal. They're currying favor with primary voters but losing independents and even maybe some moderate repubs who are sick of this sort of shit. It would almost be refreshing if Huck came out and said "I think gays are gross" instead of blaming the troops for his biases. The constituents are way ahead of their pols on this one.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/120764/conservatives-shift-favor-openly-gay-service-members.aspx

 

[Nebor]

Actually conducted the training for company commanders and first sergeants today. One CPT was like, "So will soldiers be excused from attending redeployment ceremonies and other ceremonies where, you know, two male soldiers might be making out or something when they're reunited?" And the XO responded, "Look, kids have a different view of the world that you or us. They're much more open minded towards same sex relationships because they see that kind of stuff all the time on TV, and at school." And he was like, "Not MY kids. My kids go to Christian school and they always have, so they're not exposed to that sort of thing. But now they're going to see it if I come back from a deployment? What am I supposed to do?" And that's when I sarcastically said, "The Army will be providing bunkers for those service members intent on sheltering their kids from the real world." And everyone laughed, and the XO was like, "So don't invite your family to Army things if you don't want them to see same sex couples, because they're going to be around from now on."

Other than him, we had 100% of people on board. It went really well. :thumbsup:

 

[jonks]

For most gay people, they're a lot of other things before they're a gay person. They're a cop, pastry chef, soldier, conservative, pro-life, father, tax payer, etc. Gays just are not single issue voters. There's a correlation with their relatively high level of income and their voting republican.

I recognize this, but like I said, I couldn't vote for someone who will put more money in my pocket if I knew they thought I was subhuman, or worse, pandered to those who thought that.

 

[jonks]

Actually conducted the training for company commanders and first sergeants today. One CPT was like, "So will soldiers be excused from attending redeployment ceremonies and other ceremonies where, you know, two male soldiers might be making out or something when they're reunited?" And the XO responded, "Look, kids have a different view of the world that you or us. They're much more open minded towards same sex relationships because they see that kind of stuff all the time on TV, and at school." And he was like, "Not MY kids. My kids go to Christian school and they always have, so they're not exposed to that sort of thing. But now they're going to see it if I come back from a deployment? What am I supposed to do?" And that's when I sarcastically said, "The Army will be providing bunkers for those service members intent on sheltering their kids from the real world." And everyone laughed, and the XO was like, "So don't invite your family to Army things if you don't want them to see same sex couples, because they're going to be around from now on."

Other than him, we had 100% of people on board. It went really well. :thumbsup:

That's damn cool to hear.

 

[Matt1970]

I still don't see how that is any of my damn business and I don't see how it is anyone else's business that isn't in the Military. Let the Military vote on it and get it over with.

 

[zsdersw]

I still don't see how that is any of my damn business and I don't see how it is anyone else's business that isn't in the Military. Let the Military vote on it and get it over with.

The military's actions and procedures are very much the business of those who aren't in it. Remember, civilians run the military.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The military's actions and procedures are very much the business of those who aren't in it. Remember, civilians run the military.

NCO's run the military. Politicians, Officers, and civilians tend to screw up the military.

 

[zsdersw]

NCO's run the military.

Your opinion, perhaps.. but not the truth.

POTUS and the Secretary of Defense are in charge.

 

[jonks]

NCO's run the military. Politicians, Officers, and civilians tend to screw up the military.

NCOs are the backbone of the military, they do not dictate policy.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

True, they don't set the policies but the NCO's are the ones to get things done.

 

[jonks]

True, they don't set the policies but the NCO's are the ones to get things done.

Not sure anyone's disputing that. But DADT is a policy decision. I have great faith that our esteemed sevicemen and women will continue to excel as the finest military force the world has ever known even if the people they already know are gay are simply allowed to say so.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Not sure anyone's disputing that. But DADT is a policy decision. I have great faith that our esteemed sevicemen and women will continue to excel as the finest military force the world has ever known even if the people they already know are gay are simply allowed to say so.

I agree, when I was in we could care less if someone was gay. Most of those I saw come out as gay were using it as an excuse to get out of the military.

I'm sure our servicemen/women will continue to do their job as if nothing has changed.

 

[werepossum]

Actually conducted the training for company commanders and first sergeants today. One CPT was like, "So will soldiers be excused from attending redeployment ceremonies and other ceremonies where, you know, two male soldiers might be making out or something when they're reunited?" And the XO responded, "Look, kids have a different view of the world that you or us. They're much more open minded towards same sex relationships because they see that kind of stuff all the time on TV, and at school." And he was like, "Not MY kids. My kids go to Christian school and they always have, so they're not exposed to that sort of thing. But now they're going to see it if I come back from a deployment? What am I supposed to do?" And that's when I sarcastically said, "The Army will be providing bunkers for those service members intent on sheltering their kids from the real world." And everyone laughed, and the XO was like, "So don't invite your family to Army things if you don't want them to see same sex couples, because they're going to be around from now on."

Other than him, we had 100% of people on board. It went really well. :thumbsup:

LMAO!

Glad to hear it went well for you. I expect those with problems will be disproportionally in the combat MOS's and disproportionally in senior NCO positions, surprised to hear it expressed by a captain. Gay really isn't an issue with most of the younger generation, so younger soldiers will probably not be affected. And LOL at his kids "not being exposed to that sort of thing". I applaud him for wanting to protect his kids, but openly gay people are everywhere; children protected to the point that they have not encountered gay couples will be dysfunctional adults. Hopefully he'll encounter respected soldier who are now openly gay and realize they probably won't eat his brain or rape his children.