So FOX FUBAR'd the Buffy HD remastering by changing the AR from 4:3 to 16:9

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Mar 11, 2004
23,444
5,852
146
They are doing the same thing with The Wire right now. :(

KT

I saw there was a minor fuss being made about that. Watched a video that was apparently supposed to be pointing out how it's butchering the show and literally could not tell fucking anything that made any difference whatsoever and certainly not anything that changed the scene in any meaningful way.

(It was a scene where two guys ride in a car then pull over get out and talk.)

I could understand it causing problems like picking up crew and equipment but obviously they'd be terrible transfers because of that and not because of them moving to do 16:9 instead of 4:3. Hell isn't situation like that exactly what modern CGI should be used for (digitally remove things like that)?
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
126
I am just glad they didn't do this crap for the TNG Blu Rays or I would have to murder someone.

I mean, a few of the seasons of the TNG Blu Rays could have been done better, but at least the content wasn't ruined.
 

torpid

Lifer
Sep 14, 2003
11,631
11
76
The Wire is being done more meticulously. Simon did some of the pivotal scenes and a guy from Wired is doing most of the rest scene by scene to ensure it is framed well.
 

LikeLinus

Lifer
Jul 25, 2001
11,518
670
126
WTF are you talking about? I'm not an expert myself by any means, but you sound totally clueless. Stuff is often shot in a different AR, but with the framing set up for the desired end result. For example, widescreen shows were often shot on 4:3, but with the top and bottom to be edited out later.

For example, they don't care if a boom mic is at the top of a 4:3 shot, if they know in advance that the final print is going to be a 16:9 widescreen with the top cut out.

Important to note here, almost none of these issues exist in the original TV show AR. They only crop up now because the idiots at Fox have decided to switch it to an AR it wasn't originally intended for.

That's horrible.

Eh, I work in Video Production and Post-Production.
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,313
7
81
I just threw up in my mouth a little.

I MUCH prefer 4:3 to ruined 16:9, but I would rather dig a ditch than watch a movie at someone's house when they have the "stretch everything, everyone is now fat!" modes enabled. Sad part is no one really notices, because stretch mode on a 1980's movie and it just makes everyone looks "modern" (read:eek:bese).

Media Center has a really good stretch mode called zoom 4. Its like a combo of zoom and a slight stretching, but uniform. Plus, I have a plasma and don't want the center of the screen lightened.

Seeing everything in the frame isn't necessarily important. As long as its framed correctly I have no problem with cropping 4x3 to 16x9.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
24,167
1,812
126
Eh, I work in Video Production and Post-Production.

Haha. Owned.

OTOH, that makes your comments even more perplexing. This show started in the 90s and was built for 4:3 TV. Targeting 16:9 at that time for TV would have just been a total waste of time.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,235
136
Who the hell was the genius with the idea to shoot in widescreen and not ensure the whole frame is usable, regardless if it was being shown in 4:3?? You would have to know for future use that the entire frame could be used. Complete amateur hour for such a simple thing that could have been done right easily during production. It's not an added expense to make sure some grip isn't in the shot?? They knew WS TV was on the horizon and they were being sold well before Buffy ended.

It seems that you are simply ignorant of the way this industry has always worked.

It's extremely typical to shoot with an open frame and mask the frame in editing.

It's extremely typical to capture things that you know will be framed-out in post production.
 
Last edited:

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,235
136
I am ok with them doing this with lighting and screen manipulation.

I am just tired of armchair directors editing a movie or tv show thats done and they think they have the right to reedit the film to put in CGI stuff like better furniture or a good example is the original star trek on netflix and they edited out the bad low rez planets with higher rez real life looking planets thus destroying the nostalgia connected to these tv shows.

It is a real pain.

The Star Trek special editions were done for a Blu-Ray / DVD set where you can switch between original and SE on-the-fly.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,235
136
...so anyway, remastering is hard.

If filling a 16:9 TV is the only goal with no flexibility, you'd end up with undesirable cropping and scenes that are off-center. It would be nice if such projects could have a dynamic AR. Open the frame a little bit this way or that way, maybe even use some *minimal* cropping, combined with widening, for more flexibility. Still, it would require a lot of manual analysis and I'm sure they'd miss some screw-ups.
 

notposting

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2005
3,499
35
91
I dont get it, which one is the original, left or right? one on the right looks HD and much better, dont get the outrage...

Just looking at it: crew guy not masked out, no night filter, terrible framing because they are just including a bunch of dead space on the right which was never meant to be shown.

If it was meant to be 4:3, thus it shall be...
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,284
1,998
126
You're all looking at this from the wrong side. Fox doesn't care if a few cameramen and boom mikes appear in a shot and for people without OCD such minor problems are not a big deal and will not detract from their enjoyment of the series. What matters to Fox is whether or not they'll sell. Buffy has a loyal and rabid fanbase that already owns the DVD sets, so the only way to get them to buy something new is to create something they don't already own. If the only way to convert 4:3 to 16:9 is to do it poorly then they'll do it poorly as that's more profitable than not doing it at all.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
73,367
34,896
136
The fact that you're making a fuss over Buffy The Vampire Slayer is the real horror here.
In going from movie to TV they already cropped all her muscles. Movie Buffy looked like she could kick a stake through a vampire's heart. TV Buffy had to pout them into submission.
 

torpid

Lifer
Sep 14, 2003
11,631
11
76
In going from movie to TV they already cropped all her muscles. Movie Buffy looked like she could kick a stake through a vampire's heart. TV Buffy had to pout them into submission.

They were both tiny women going up against rather large creatures. Supernatural strength was going to be required no matter how muscular she was unless she was going to be pulling off some impressive judo throws or something instead of waist-height kicks.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
24,167
1,812
126
You're all looking at this from the wrong side. Fox doesn't care if a few cameramen and boom mikes appear in a shot and for people without OCD such minor problems are not a big deal and will not detract from their enjoyment of the series. What matters to Fox is whether or not they'll sell. Buffy has a loyal and rabid fanbase that already owns the DVD sets, so the only way to get them to buy something new is to create something they don't already own. If the only way to convert 4:3 to 16:9 is to do it poorly then they'll do it poorly as that's more profitable than not doing it at all.

Which is why I said earlier that I definitely would not buy this version, even as a person who still buys Blu-ray discs and as a fan of the series.

BTW, I am somebody that is new to the Buffy series, having just recently seen it on Netflix. I do not own either the DVD or Blu-ray set. However I would consider buying the original aspect ratio version on DVD when my daughter gets older.

The ironic part of all of this is back in the day we used to always complain about widescreen movies being cropped for 4 x 3 TVs. Eventually we fans won out, but now the studios are doing the exact reverse.
 
Last edited:

Buffdale

Junior Member
Mar 22, 2015
1
0
0
www.facebook.com
Hi. You can see all this HD version's flaws here:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/F28XcxHxH6k
You can find Joss Whedon's, David Fury's and Steven DeKnight's answers in it.

Below are the last reactions of three members of the original team:

Mark Metcalf (The Master) on his Facebook Page: "I probably should know more about this before I open my big mouth but from the little I do know Fox has made a mess of remastering the great work of Joss Whedon and Sarah Michelle Gellar and all the other actors, directors and technicians who worked on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. The show and the work were important to me at the time and there are fans throughout the world that still get inspiration from the little girl with the big wooden stake and her struggle for justice and a simple dinner date in a nice black dress. This is worth a look."

Aaron Miller by private message: "I was the post coordinator for Season 5 and we actually made a list of 16X9 fixes for every show that would need to be done when the show was remastered for HD. [Fox] definitely did not contact me at any time."

Aaron Miller:
"Here's a comment from my post supervisor/AP that I worked with on Buffy. He was a post PA on Season 1 and moved up to AP by Season 6. He and I both went to work on Firefly so we did not do Season 7:

[Brian Wankum:] Thanks for asking! I am a little torn. The true purists should only ever watch the 4:3 standard def original release versions (exception being the "Once More With Feeling" which was intended to be shown widescreen). Not only is the framing as was originally intended, but i suspect that there will be lots of details in sets, props, costumes and makeup that might not hold up in HD.

That's for the purists. BUT... Right or wrong there is a large population of average Joes who just want the picture to fill their frame. The same group who 15 years ago would have preferred the center cut to the black bars on top and bottom. Would be a shame for a whole new generation to miss out just because they (or their local TV station which is more likely) got turned off by black side bars. I agree that if it must be done there's a better way to do it. Season 1 was 16mm 4X3 so there is no way to make it 16:9 without blowing up the image. One of the things that bugs me the most about the ones I have seen is that top of show credits appear over peoples faces. We always had a rule to keep credits below the chin in closeups. Starting with season 2 we shot 35mm composed for 4X3 but protecting for 16X9. After we delivered the 4:3 air master I would sit down and watch the 16:9 version and take notes and do blowups and repos where necessary to avoid crew, equipment and ends of sets in shots. We called these the "16X9 safe masters" and archived them with everything else. I thought these were pretty cool to watch, the problem is when they went back to negative for the HD rexfer in this latest release it looks like they did not consult the original for either color timing or re-framing reference. I'm sure the stories and characters will hold up but it's too bad more care was not taken. Nobody asked me, but if they did I would have loved to have consulted on this. Probably could have organized a crowdsourcing effort of comparing the originals to the re-transfers. Lots of crew alumni with lots of love for the originals would have likely participated. Maybe for the 4K/3D version?"

He probably meant they started shooting 35mm with season 3. Season 2 was (super) 16mm.

Note that the video was also shared by Kristine Sutherland (Joyce Summers), James C. Leary (Clem), David Fury, Tim Minear (producer, writer and director on "Angel" the TV show) and Nancy Holder (writer).
 

Rakehellion

Lifer
Jan 15, 2013
12,181
35
91
http://www.theverge.com/2014/12/15/7397395/buffy-widescreen-Fox-hd-ruined-slayer-terrible



crewmember.0.0.png


Fortunately, I have all 7 seasons on DVD in their original cuts.

The one on the right looks better.