So basically, Conroe is another Northwood situation again

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Kur

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: Kur
I figure it took Intel 5 years to make a GOOD chip, it will take AMD 1/5 the time.

Wow!!! AMD can build brand new CPUs in ONE year??? Jeez louiiiize...they must have some bionic engineers that require no sleep and fabs that are from the planet KUR!!!😉

Seriously, you think AMD is gonna suddenly have an all-conquering CPU in one year?? I doubt it. K8 came out in 2003 and it's 2006, so 3 years of the same architecture. I doubt even K8L will garner that much of a performance increase...but I'll eagerly await any new tech they have.

I was actually hoping that reverse HT was real...that would have been amazing...but it appears we were fooled.

In the mean time, don't be blinded and buy whatever suits your needs and budget.

If you understood what I said about them pumping out better chips every year, who said they did'nt have something already in development?

Your post indicated that it took 5 years for Intel to make a GOOD chip. And that it will take AMD 1/5th the time. That means 1 year. If you meant it in a different context, you should explain in the same post.

 

[dexvx]

Originally posted by: 8steve8
what H explains and all the reviews show is that

the difference of an AMD x2 and a intel Core 2 Duo is irrelevant
FOR GAMES.

and thats all it says.

but any smart person on here knew that before reading a single review.

Actually not. CPU performance is irrelevant for 1600x1200 FPS gaming with AA/AF turned on. And... the number of people running 1600x1200 AA/AF is less than 5% of the entire market. Moreover, RTS games, like Rise of Legends are severely impacted by CPU speed. There are other games that are more CPU bound and you will see gains.

The HardOCP review was just disapointing. Kyle could've dropped a Pentium-D 960 ($300sh MSRP) and it could've easily matched the FX-62 / X6800 numbers.

 

[Avalon]

Originally posted by: dexvx

Originally posted by: 8steve8
what H explains and all the reviews show is that

the difference of an AMD x2 and a intel Core 2 Duo is irrelevant
FOR GAMES.

and thats all it says.

but any smart person on here knew that before reading a single review.

Actually not. CPU performance is irrelevant for 1600x1200 FPS gaming with AA/AF turned on. And... the number of people running 1600x1200 AA/AF is less than 5% of the entire market. Moreover, RTS games, like Rise of Legends are severely impacted by CPU speed. There are other games that are more CPU bound and you will see gains.

The HardOCP review was just disapointing. Kyle could've dropped a Pentium-D 960 ($300sh MSRP) and it could've easily matched the FX-62 / X6800 numbers.

Yes, that's true. Don't forget the RTS games. RoL got a MASSIVE boost in framerate, and at 1600x1200 no less in Anand's review. For res limited gamers like myself, the difference would be even greater, so Conroe is not useless as a gaming upgrade, especially when it has the added bonus of improving productivity in other tasks you use your computer for.

Plus, the rest of those games will see an even bigger boost than the 16x12 scores for the majority of gamers stuck at 10x7 and 12x10.

 

[Regs]

Whoever gives me reverse HT first gets my dollar. I dont give a damn if it is fictional, if someone puts it out there, I'm replacing my 2.5ghz A64 period.

AMD or Intel can't confirm it or deny it. Because both had made it a "lab experiment" and right now they are playing head games.

Fictional in the short-coming.

 

[redbox]

I think Cruise 51 said it best here:

quote:
Is conroe better than athlon 64? Performance wise, yes.... Value wise, that is yet to be seen.



This is what I am talking about. I already have a high end 939 system with a single core running at 2.6 and I game at 1680x1050. I think my money is better spent on a new gpu rather than changing my motherboard, ram, and cpu. I am aiming for the new DX10 cards and my money is better spent on one of those and a better powersupply rather than a conroe system.

For a conroe system to run DX10 I will need

1. $200 motherboard
2. $300 cpu if that is the market price when they come out
3. $200 2x1Gb DDR2 ram
4. $200 powersupply to run the power hog of DX10 cards
5. $500 DX10 GPU

For an AMD X2 DX10 system I will need

1. $200 X2 cpu
3. $200 powersupply
4. $500 DX10 GPU

Total for the conroe system= $1400
Total for the AMD X2 system= $900

Difference= $500

conclusion= not worth it.

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: coldpower27

Originally posted by: Kur
I'm one of those people who won't be upgrading, I have AMD 3000+ (Non-Dual Core) and I game alot. Why not upgrade to C2D for my next system? Because it has taken Intel almost 5 years to come up with a good chip to beat AMD while AMD has been pumping out quality chips are reasonable price for the last 5 years. Yes C2D owns AMD in the face but the fact that it took them 5 years to develop this "Ub3r" chip questions their future for new chips. I can see AMD smashing C2D in the next 1-2 years easily, why? Because they have been known to do it time and time again. You guys can talk benchmarks all you want but when it comes to choosing a CPU I would rather choose a company that has actually taken some pride and respect for their customers and by giving us GREAT chips instead of presenting customers with out-of date technology and laughable chip performance.

Flame all you want on me but in the long run I think AMD will prove themselves like they always have.

I see people posting "I should have waited another year". You are going to be saying that in another year as well once you buy a C2D

I dunno, "reasonable" is subjective, given what AMD's has done with their Athlon 64x2 prices when they launched they want money just as much as Intel does. They also launched the Athlon 64 at considerable pricing as well. Not to mention Intel gave us some great deals with their Pentium D 9xx Series.

Exactly, I'm still peeved at AMD for that. The 4400+ was nearly 600 bucks at release!

Intel's equivalent chip (faster than AMD vs P4 was) is like 200 bucks!

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Crusader
Whoever gives me reverse HT first gets my dollar. I dont give a damn if it is fictional, if someone puts it out there, I'm replacing my 2.5ghz A64 period.

With a moronic statement like this, how much credibility are people really going to take you for? Really, i thought you had a point, until you ended your post with sush an idiotic line.

 

[gramboh]

A few things seem evident from this thread

1) If you have a semi recently built S939 platform, there is likely not value in building a new C2D system right away, at least not for gaming with the current generation of GPUs. This will change with the next generation, or if you have a top of the line SLI/Crossfire/7950 setup. This makes sense given the cost of changing memory to DDR2 and a new mainboard.

2) If you are building a new system, there is no compelling argument against C2D. The OP seems to have tried to come up with some reason involving pricing but it makes no sense.

I have an old Northwood system which I built in May 03 (when Northwood was the performance king) which is still running reasonably well. I am going to build a new system in the fall/winter (waiting for revisions on mainboards and new GPU generation). There is zero question I will be buying C2D, likely a 6600 and overclocking it with a good 3 party HSF. 3.5 to 4.0GHz C2D for $315US? How can you possibly argue against that, it beats an FX62 at STOCK, imagine the benchmarks at 4.0GHz.

 

[Bobthelost]

Originally posted by: gramboh
A few things seem evident from this thread

1) If you have a semi recently built S939 platform, there is likely not value in building a new C2D system right away, at least not for gaming with the current generation of GPUs. This might change with the next generation, or if you have a top of the line SLI/Crossfire/7950 setup. This makes sense given the cost of changing memory to DDR2 and a new mainboard.

2) If you are building a new system, there is no compelling argument against C2D. The OP seems to have tried to come up with some reason involving pricing but it makes no sense.

The OP is a fanboy of the worst kind, one with multiple obsessions. But you should be more careful predicting the future, it might change with the next generation, but i expect the games to just get even more grpahics hungry and the load to fall on the GPU again.

I will be buying C2D, likely a 6600 and overclocking it with a good 3 party HSF. 3.5 to 4.0GHz C2D for $315US? How can you possibly argue against that, it beats an FX62 at STOCK, imagine the benchmarks at 4.0GHz.

You're not a gamer are you? 😉

 

[redbox]

Originally posted by: gramboh
A few things seem evident from this thread

1) If you have a semi recently built S939 platform, there is likely not value in building a new C2D system right away, at least not for gaming with the current generation of GPUs. This will change with the next generation, or if you have a top of the line SLI/Crossfire/7950 setup. This makes sense given the cost of changing memory to DDR2 and a new mainboard.

2) If you are building a new system, there is no compelling argument against C2D. The OP seems to have tried to come up with some reason involving pricing but it makes no sense.

I have an old Northwood system which I built in May 03 (when Northwood was the performance king) which is still running reasonably well. I am going to build a new system in the fall/winter (waiting for revisions on mainboards and new GPU generation). There is zero question I will be buying C2D, likely a 6600 and overclocking it with a good 3 party HSF. 3.5 to 4.0GHz C2D for $315US? How can you possibly argue against that, it beats an FX62 at STOCK, imagine the benchmarks at 4.0GHz.

I have to agree with you on most of your points but I still am holding off claiming that C2D will cost what they say it will. No matter what Intel prices it at it is up to the sellers to set the price. It is simple supply and demand, and with a chip this good with shipments only going to be 25% there is going to be some price gouging. I wouldn't be suprised to see the E6600 going for $500. Which still is a bargain for the performance, but it doesn't sound as good as the $315 we have all been hearing.

Even given the pricing concerns I have of C2D the AMD2 can't even compete with it. That is plain and simple. If you are building a new system and have to have it now I would still go with intel. Just get a conroe ready board and a low cost intel chip to hold you over until conroe comes out. AMD2 just doesn't provide anything.

 

[gramboh]

I agree there may be price gouging in the first few weeks of release but I would be surprised if it was more than $50-100 over MSRP, very surprised in fact. Remember that 25% of Intel's production is still more than AMD's total production, and that the enthusiast market segment who wants these chips ASAP is relatively small. What matters if how much OEM builders are going to take of production. Without being an insider it's impossible to know.

But anyway yes supply and demand will set the price, which means that within a few weeks, suppliers will be selling at MSRP or slightly under to compete for demand. Price gouging on CPUs cannot possibly last longer than the initial shipment beacuse the market is huge (many suppliers and many buyers) and the MSRP is known.

 

[redbox]

Originally posted by: gramboh
I agree there may be price gouging in the first few weeks of release but I would be surprised if it was more than $50-100 over MSRP, very surprised in fact. Remember that 25% of Intel's production is still more than AMD's total production, and that the enthusiast market segment who wants these chips ASAP is relatively small. What matters if how much OEM builders are going to take of production. Without being an insider it's impossible to know.

But anyway yes supply and demand will set the price, which means that within a few weeks, suppliers will be selling at MSRP or slightly under to compete for demand. Price gouging on CPUs cannot possibly last longer than the initial shipment beacuse the market is huge (many suppliers and many buyers) and the MSRP is known.

If this was true then Anandtech wouldn't be worried about the supply and price.

Quote from the Anandteck article on the C2D

What we're worried about happening is a very small supply of Conroes on the retail market in late Q3/early Q4, resulting in much higher street prices than what you see on page 2. In the worst case scenario for Intel, Conroe's limited retail availability could result in a price to performance ratio equal to or worse than AMD's Athlon 64 X2.

Your example is one where the supply is higher than the demand. I think it will be the opposite.

 

[Avalon]

Originally posted by: redbox
I think Cruise 51 said it best here:

quote:
Is conroe better than athlon 64? Performance wise, yes.... Value wise, that is yet to be seen.



This is what I am talking about. I already have a high end 939 system with a single core running at 2.6 and I game at 1680x1050. I think my money is better spent on a new gpu rather than changing my motherboard, ram, and cpu. I am aiming for the new DX10 cards and my money is better spent on one of those and a better powersupply rather than a conroe system.

For a conroe system to run DX10 I will need

1. $200 motherboard
2. $300 cpu if that is the market price when they come out
3. $200 2x1Gb DDR2 ram
4. $200 powersupply to run the power hog of DX10 cards
5. $500 DX10 GPU

For an AMD X2 DX10 system I will need

1. $200 X2 cpu
3. $200 powersupply
4. $500 DX10 GPU

Total for the conroe system= $1400
Total for the AMD X2 system= $900

Difference= $500

conclusion= not worth it.

You're forgetting one thing: the money you get back from selling the rest of your 939 rig if you decide to go Conroe. I don't know what your rig is currently sporting, but I'll take a guess and say you could get $150-$175 for your mobo and cpu, and $75-$150 on your DDR memory depending on how much and what type it is. So the difference won't be as high as $500 in your case, but closer to $200-$300. I don't know if that changes your conclusion or not, but it's something to think about.

 

[redbox]

Ya true I could sell my current system but that is alot of trouble plus I am planning on upgrading my families pc with the parts from this computer I have now. I am probably just going to ride and watch maybe in half a year to a year I will consider conroe. Other owners of a 939 system should take your consideration into account though. It doesn't sound like too bad of a deal depending on what you use your computer for. If the difference was closer to $200 to $300 I might spring for it. But that is still more trouble then pulling the buy button for a cheap X2. Overall I am really happy with the performance conroe brings it is forcing AMD to do the same thing Intel was forced to do. Price wars are always good for us buyers. I just wonder how well AMD can play the price game with a huge company like Intel. What are your feelings on this?

 

[NMDante]

Originally posted by: redbox
Ya true I could sell my current system but that is alot of trouble plus I am planning on upgrading my families pc with the parts from this computer I have now. I am probably just going to ride and watch maybe in half a year to a year I will consider conroe. Other owners of a 939 system should take your consideration into account though. It doesn't sound like too bad of a deal depending on what you use your computer for. If the difference was closer to $200 to $300 I might spring for it. But that is still more trouble then pulling the buy button for a cheap X2. Overall I am really happy with the performance conroe brings it is forcing AMD to do the same thing Intel was forced to do. Price wars are always good for us buyers. I just wonder how well AMD can play the price game with a huge company like Intel. What are your feelings on this?

While you brought up the price wars, how low do you really think AMD can price their CPUs to both compete and make a profit?

It's one thing to say that they will be doing aggressive price cuts, but until THOSE prices are revealed, as well as the Conroe line, the "retail" price list at the hardware review sites can be used to determine overall price vs. performance matrix.

Sure, it's a waiting game right now, for availablity and prices, but with AMD already stating that they will stop producing certain chips, I think upgradablity should be factored into the price. With quad-cores rumored just around the corner, will the existing AM2s and 975x boards be compatible with them?

 

[bob661]

will the existing AM2s and 975x boards be compatible with them?

That's the question of the day right there. I'm personally waiting till the 65nm A64's come out before I decide to upgrade my system but I am still wondering if K8L will be compatible with AM2 boards. Also, if I go C2D, will the current 775 boards support their quad core solution. Given Intels history, I would say that I would have to buy a new board to get quad core Intel CPU's. With AMD's history, if K8L is DDR2, then whatever boards are out at the time will support it. And to add to the mess, AT said that there was supposed to be a new NF single chip chipset that's supports dual x16 coming out towards the end of the year. ******!

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: Avalon

Originally posted by: redbox
I think Cruise 51 said it best here:

quote:
Is conroe better than athlon 64? Performance wise, yes.... Value wise, that is yet to be seen.



This is what I am talking about. I already have a high end 939 system with a single core running at 2.6 and I game at 1680x1050. I think my money is better spent on a new gpu rather than changing my motherboard, ram, and cpu. I am aiming for the new DX10 cards and my money is better spent on one of those and a better powersupply rather than a conroe system.

For a conroe system to run DX10 I will need

1. $200 motherboard
2. $300 cpu if that is the market price when they come out
3. $200 2x1Gb DDR2 ram
4. $200 powersupply to run the power hog of DX10 cards
5. $500 DX10 GPU

For an AMD X2 DX10 system I will need

1. $200 X2 cpu
3. $200 powersupply
4. $500 DX10 GPU

Total for the conroe system= $1400
Total for the AMD X2 system= $900

Difference= $500

conclusion= not worth it.

You're forgetting one thing: the money you get back from selling the rest of your 939 rig if you decide to go Conroe. I don't know what your rig is currently sporting, but I'll take a guess and say you could get $150-$175 for your mobo and cpu, and $75-$150 on your DDR memory depending on how much and what type it is. So the difference won't be as high as $500 in your case, but closer to $200-$300. I don't know if that changes your conclusion or not, but it's something to think about.

yeah, and I'd rather not spend $500 on a video card only to have it limmited by the CPU. It's true that right now you need 2 x GPU to unleash Core 2 (without considering the absurd notion to reduce the resolution); but a single, $500, DX10 GPU should do the work of at least two 7900/X1900. That's why I'm going to wait a while more before I jump ship. Assuming Intel can keep up supply; I can avoid price gouging, I can have more motherboards and more mature chipsets to choose from, and I can have my single GPU/card solution (DX10) that can show off Core 2's advantage without a retarded resolution that only idiots play at with such hardware.

Of course the longer I wait, the more my current parts will fall in value...but I don't really sell off many of my parts anyways - I like collecting 😛

 

[openwheelformula1]

I have two rigs: one with X2 3800+. The other one has XP 2500+, Abit NF7-S, and is currently running my HTPC. I will replace the Athlon XP with a lower end conroe with energy efficiency in mind. So I'll have both. My Toledo is capable of 2.5ghz on stock voltage with CnQ enabled. I can use either K8 or Conroe for gaming. I can also use either one for HTPC. Therefore I get the best of both worlds.

 

[redbox]

Originally posted by: NMDante

Originally posted by: redbox
Ya true I could sell my current system but that is alot of trouble plus I am planning on upgrading my families pc with the parts from this computer I have now. I am probably just going to ride and watch maybe in half a year to a year I will consider conroe. Other owners of a 939 system should take your consideration into account though. It doesn't sound like too bad of a deal depending on what you use your computer for. If the difference was closer to $200 to $300 I might spring for it. But that is still more trouble then pulling the buy button for a cheap X2. Overall I am really happy with the performance conroe brings it is forcing AMD to do the same thing Intel was forced to do. Price wars are always good for us buyers. I just wonder how well AMD can play the price game with a huge company like Intel. What are your feelings on this?

While you brought up the price wars, how low do you really think AMD can price their CPUs to both compete and make a profit?

It's one thing to say that they will be doing aggressive price cuts, but until THOSE prices are revealed, as well as the Conroe line, the "retail" price list at the hardware review sites can be used to determine overall price vs. performance matrix.

Sure, it's a waiting game right now, for availablity and prices, but with AMD already stating that they will stop producing certain chips, I think upgradablity should be factored into the price. With quad-cores rumored just around the corner, will the existing AM2s and 975x boards be compatible with them?

You bring up good points I don't expect AMD to do as well in the price war and it does worry me that they are ending the supply of certain chips. I also am sitting and waiting to see what happens with the motherboard market as well as some of the future cpu features do out in 07. I still have plenty of life left in this 939 system, more than enough to last untill mid 07 maybe 08.

 

[Ranulf]

Given that I'm building a brand new system (mostly for gaming) my main concern with conroe is the supply/price issue and that its bleeding edge, which means bugs. I've been burned before with early adoption and I'm begining to regret waiting 5-6 months to upgrade. 🙂

 

[Acanthus]

AMD officially announced the 7/30 price drops.

X2 3800 939 for $149 will probably get me, im running a venice 3000+ now in a DFI ultra-D


Itll tide me over until Conroe pricing gets more reasonable, or quad cores hit.

 

[coldpower27]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
AMD officially announced the 7/30 price drops.

X2 3800 939 for $149 will probably get me, im running a venice 3000+ now in a DFI ultra-D


Itll tide me over until Conroe pricing gets more reasonable, or quad cores hit.

The numbers posted by Dailytech, look like a special distributer price that we don't have access to.

Remeber the Athlon FX 62 is 1031US and Athlon FX 60 827US right now.

On that sheet it's 999US and 799US, difference of 32US and 28US difference on the high end.

On the low end Sempron 3400 EE goes for 145US with the 3200+ EE going for 119US

On that sheet the price looks like it's 138US and 111US a difference of 7 and 8 US respectively.

So depending on how far along the lineup you are there are disreprencies of 7-32US. Keep in mind if you have to normalize to what our pricing will be.

 

[redbox]

Originally posted by: coldpower27

Originally posted by: Acanthus
AMD officially announced the 7/30 price drops.

X2 3800 939 for $149 will probably get me, im running a venice 3000+ now in a DFI ultra-D


Itll tide me over until Conroe pricing gets more reasonable, or quad cores hit.

The numbers posted by Dailytech, look like a special distributer price that we don't have access to.

Remeber the Athlon FX 62 is 1031US and Athlon FX 60 827US right now.

On that sheet it's 999US and 799US, difference of 32US and 28US difference on the high end.

On the low end Sempron 3400 EE goes for 145US with the 3200+ EE going for 119US

On that sheet the price looks like it's 138US and 111US a difference of 7 and 8 US respectively.

So depending on how far along the lineup you are there are disreprencies of 7-32US. Keep in mind if you have to normalize to what our pricing will be.

Ya it looks like a distributer price, but I don't expect the price to rise to high from places like newegg. This price list isn't any different then the price lists we had from Intel that where in quantities of 1000. I am expecting an 3800+X2 for around $170. I think that is resonable.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: coldpower27

Originally posted by: Acanthus
AMD officially announced the 7/30 price drops.

X2 3800 939 for $149 will probably get me, im running a venice 3000+ now in a DFI ultra-D


Itll tide me over until Conroe pricing gets more reasonable, or quad cores hit.

The numbers posted by Dailytech, look like a special distributer price that we don't have access to.

Remeber the Athlon FX 62 is 1031US and Athlon FX 60 827US right now.

On that sheet it's 999US and 799US, difference of 32US and 28US difference on the high end.

On the low end Sempron 3400 EE goes for 145US with the 3200+ EE going for 119US

On that sheet the price looks like it's 138US and 111US a difference of 7 and 8 US respectively.

So depending on how far along the lineup you are there are disreprencies of 7-32US. Keep in mind if you have to normalize to what our pricing will be.

Yeah youre right, its the tray prices, but they typically dont go $15-25 over the tray prices on the street for etailers.

 

[coldpower27]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: coldpower27

Originally posted by: Acanthus
AMD officially announced the 7/30 price drops.

X2 3800 939 for $149 will probably get me, im running a venice 3000+ now in a DFI ultra-D


Itll tide me over until Conroe pricing gets more reasonable, or quad cores hit.

The numbers posted by Dailytech, look like a special distributer price that we don't have access to.

Remeber the Athlon FX 62 is 1031US and Athlon FX 60 827US right now.

On that sheet it's 999US and 799US, difference of 32US and 28US difference on the high end.

On the low end Sempron 3400 EE goes for 145US with the 3200+ EE going for 119US

On that sheet the price looks like it's 138US and 111US a difference of 7 and 8 US respectively.

So depending on how far along the lineup you are there are disreprencies of 7-32US. Keep in mind if you have to normalize to what our pricing will be.

Yeah youre right, its the tray prices, but they typically dont go $15-25 over the tray prices on the street for etailers.

Yes, but that would place the Athlon 64x2 3800+ back at the "old" 169US. Well normalizing to these price they do.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi...ption=&srchInDesc=&minPrice=&maxPrice=

The Athlon 64x2 3800+ is 297US now, on AMD's price List 303US
, on the new roadmap 277US.

The Athlon 64x2 4200+ is 359US, on AMD's price List 365US
, on the new roadmap 339US.

The Athlon 64x2 4600+ is 568US now, on AMD's price List 558US
, on the new roadmap 522US.

Keep this very much in mind., they are not using the same yardstick in the slightest.

Check out my comparsions.