So as a n00b to PC gaming, can someone explain how the transition to DX12 may work?

[minitron]

And I explained that this is simply not true.
they make more money being cross platform.
If they need to choose only one platform instead of being multi platform then the PC is the most profitable single platform.

This is just wrong.

Let's take the case of MW2, the highest selling game at the time.

If I'm a developer I'm choosing Xbox or PS to develop for, not the console. EPIC didn't even bother releasing GoW2 and GoW3 for PC because they knew it wouldn't be worth it.

 

[taltamir]

This is just wrong.

Let's take the case of MW2, the highest selling game at the time.

If I'm a developer I'm choosing Xbox or PS to develop for, not the console. EPIC didn't even bother releasing GoW2 and GoW3 for PC because they knew it wouldn't be worth it.

1. Its not the best selling game of all time. It's second best.
2. Boycott:
http://gamer.blorge.com/2009/11/10/games-to-play-while-boycotting-call-of-duty-modern-warfare-2/
http://kotaku.com/5400410/what-to-play-while-boycotting-modern-warfare-2
3. Its numbers are not indicative of all games; Recall I explicitly said that of the 4 most profitable game types, FPS was the one and only type that sold better on consoles.
MMOs, RPGs, and strategy games are the other 3 of the top seller types and all of them do better on PC. As well as many other types of games.
4. The PC game is usually superior in quality to console games due to superior controls and graphics. However if you check reviews for the PC it got a much lower score then consoles, why? because of issues with the PC release.
5. http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/51467/Modern-Warfare-2-U-K-PC-Sales-Lagging-Way-Behind

Steam sales may be through the roof, but we'll never know - Valve refuses to release figures.

The PC sales figures are for RETAIL sales of DISKS. Nobody buys disks anymore for the PC as I have explicitly said, the amount of online sales is unknown.

PC version
Criticism has arisen of changes made to the PC version of Modern Warfare 2 including the lack of dedicated servers, latency issues of the listen server-only IWNET, lack of console commands, lack of support for matches larger than 18 players, and inability to vote towards kicking or banning cheating players immediately.[30] When asked about the removal of console menu commands, Infinity Ward responded with, "We would like you to play the game the way we designed and balanced it."
Defending their decision towards the lack of dedicated servers, Infinity Ward maintains that IWNET will "put you in the game that will give you the smoothest gameplay possible without you having to manually find a server with the best ping." In addition, it is stated that the utilization of Valve's Anti-Cheat system will eliminate the need to worry about "joining a server full of aim-bots, wallhacks, or cheaters. Or relying on the server administrator to constantly be monitoring, banning, and policing it."[31] However, Valve's anti-cheat system was designed to punish cheating, not to prevent it, by banning cheaters after a random delay.[32] Taking a different view, Ars Technica writer Ben Kuchera wrote, "At launch, this will be one of the most locked-down, inflexible, and gamer-unfriendly [games] ever created."[30]
An online petition was launched immediately after the announcement of the changes to the game's multiplayer aspect, urging Infinity Ward to reconsider its stance, with over 200,000 signatures.[33] When asked for a comment on the petition, Infinity Ward's Robert Bowling stated that it “definitely made a big wave, and the response will not be ignored. I’ll ensure everyone at IW sees the petitions and responds to it.”[34] The game went on to beat its predecessor's first week sales without yielding to any of the demands [35] but had dropped down to 39th place on the PC after three weeks, a decline not shared by the console versions.[36] Shortly after release a screenshot was circulated on the internet showing a number of members in one of the boycott groups on Steam playing Modern Warfare 2.[37][38] By May 2010, coders unlocked the developer console and managed to recreate the effect of dedicated servers. [39]

 

[BrightCandle]

If they need to choose only one platform instead of being multi platform then the PC is the most profitable single platform.

Its worth saying that the currently countable PC sales are the biggest market, larger than any of the console markets. But no one knows about the uncountable sales such as Steam.

Its highly likely that the complete spectrum of PC sales dwarfs the consoles combined as its a much more diverse market.

 

[SuperMarioBro]

Consoles are not the leaders in terms of graphics technology. They take the advances on PC GPUs and reduce it down to something affordable to the console manufacturer. Thus its highly unlikely that it will drive a move to DX12, its more likely they will be somewhere around DX11 capabilities. PC will certainly get to the API long before a console is released on it.

I didn't think the next Xbox would be the first piece of hardware to offer DX12 capabilities, I just thought that it would be the release that initiated the widespread usage of the API. I understand that consoles generally use optimized versions of older hardware.

So MS has achieved its goal for taking something like an API and marketing it to mean better graphics to all the kiddies out there. Why don't we just go back in time and market consoles for being 256 bit graphics or whatever. lol
for them to make a DX12 would require NV or ATI (lol) to make new hardware specific features. For consoles, there is no need to alleviate CPU duties unless its something that the GPU can do more efficiently, however that still puts a further load on it and a developer would still have to play "tit for tat"
but its just an API, even OpenGL can do all the same things with specific vendor extensions, dx11 is just easier for developers with less time writing code.
there are some things dx11 doesn't support, like dedicated atomic counter hardware but the same functionality is indirectly, similar things like that for OpenGL, but both on par with the number hardware features they expose.
its more marketing than anything. ms wants to keep gamers where their at as its a main focus to keep everyone from going to Linux.

If this is directed at me, I'm not sure what I said to make you think I believed DX12 would be some major upgrade over DX11...

 

[taltamir]

I understand that consoles generally use optimized versions of older hardware.

Only if by optimized you mean "cheaper and slower". Current consoles are all based on cut down, slower versions of ancient PC GPUs.

 

[vailr]

Any links with documentation for a possible rumored existence of "DX12"?
Is talk of DX12 simply idle speculation, or: ?

 

[MrK6]

Unfortunately as gaming has become more mainstream, it's also become dumbed-down to the lowest common denominator (which is a by-product of mass appeal for sales, welcome to business 101). That said, DX12, whenever it comes, isn't going to do a darn thing. Look at how long DX11 has been out (almost 3 years now) and how poor support is for it. Why? There's no profit in it. When the same rehashed clone of CoD drastically outsells anything new or innovative, why would companies bother? The best I'm hoping for is a more streamlined API that is very efficient and allows "top-tier" graphics on quieter/more efficient hardware.

 

[Siberian]

Instead of launching DX12 with Windows 8 , they made windows more portable friendly. It's like a step back. There was even a rumor of the next xbox using ARM. If opengl does not improve vastly. We may not see a big improvement for a long time.

 

[SuperMarioBro]

Only if by optimized you mean "cheaper and slower". Current consoles are all based on cut down, slower versions of ancient PC GPUs.

I mean optimized for a gaming console... I get that you hate console gaming, but consoles are able to run games very well relative to PCs with comparable hardware.

Any links with documentation for a possible rumored existence of "DX12"?
Is talk of DX12 simply idle speculation, or: ?

Just speculation on my part... and not very good speculation based on the replies in this thread.

 

[The_Golden_Man]

I mean optimized for a gaming console... I get that you hate console gaming, but consoles are able to run games very well relative to PCs with comparable hardware.

That's because those games are made and optimized for consoles, then ported over to PC. Which in turn makes the PC run it worse, even with a little better hardware, due to terrible porting.

Consoles are really ruining PC gaming.

I hate consoles. :thumbsdown:

 

[Spjut]

Only if by optimized you mean "cheaper and slower". Current consoles are all based on cut down, slower versions of ancient PC GPUs.

Guess you could say that about the PS3's, but the 360's GPU? Not really

 

[Dravic]

Guess you could say that about the PS3's, but the 360's GPU? Not really

They both used slightly scaled down versions of PC hardware. It has become too expensive to R&D your own custom graphics sub systems like they used to do. Sony tried with the PS3 with the cells, but that failed terribly from a cost point of view. They ended up having to bolt on a GPU to do the heavy lifting anyway, and even scaled down from 8 to 7 cell cpus because of yield issues. All leading to a $600 console at launch that still lost gobs per console to start.

I usually own at least 1 console per gen anyway, but for a $600 buy in, I would build a custom PC gamer that will give me a far superior experience every time.

 

[taltamir]

I mean optimized for a gaming console...

My previous statement stands. The only way it has been optimized is to make it slower and cheaper.
The Xbox 360 and the PS3 contain cut down versions of GPUs that are weaker then the version that was sold to PC owners.

I get that you hate console gaming, but consoles are able to run games very well relative to PCs with comparable hardware.

1. No they aren't, the GPUs that were cut down to make the console GPUs performed better in cross platform games.
2. You can't even buy computers this slow anymore. 2 years ago smartphones were equivalent to consoles. Nowadays top of the line smartphones have 4x the RAM and similar CPU/GPU.
3. So if I call you out on calling a cut down, weaker part "optimized" I now hate consoles?
4. Consoles are not more optimized. Console GAMES are more optimized.
Console games get more optimization because they need to in order to run at all. This is a very expensive and long process that require experts trying to eke out every last ounce of performance from crippled hardware that raises the time and cost to develop games.

Guess you could say that about the PS3's, but the 360's GPU? Not really

The 360 uses a cutdown version of a PC GPU. I had actually posted in another thread (after doing the research) the exact name of the GPU in question, the exact cutdowns that were made, and a performance comparison between them using cross platform games showing the PC version of that GPU performed a lot faster.
But I gotta get ready for a business trip tomorrow so I don't have time to find it right now. Anyone else is more then welcome to search for it though.

 

[Smoblikat]

Or whatever the next widely adopted DX version may be... I assume that it will be DX12 because I'm guessing that's what the Xbox "720" will use, and that will finally ignite the widespread usage of a new DX version.

But anyways, what I'm specifically wondering is, as new games start being built on a new DX API, do all DX11 cards (even the highest-end cards) become obsolete and incapable of playing new software? Or will it be possible to run these new DX12 games on DX11 cards with some settings disabled or something?

lol, DX11 isnt even widely adopted

DX isusually backwards compatible so there wont be any great shift, just the need to upgrade if you want DX12.

 

[lamedude]

R600 came out a year and half later than the 360 so I would say R600 was built upon Xenos rather than believe AMD made R600, cut it down to fit in the 360 then sat on it.

 

[poohbear]

Unfortunately as gaming has become more mainstream, it's also become dumbed-down to the lowest common denominator (which is a by-product of mass appeal for sales, welcome to business 101). That said, DX12, whenever it comes, isn't going to do a darn thing. Look at how long DX11 has been out (almost 3 years now) and how poor support is for it. Why? There's no profit in it. When the same rehashed clone of CoD drastically outsells anything new or innovative, why would companies bother? The best I'm hoping for is a more streamlined API that is very efficient and allows "top-tier" graphics on quieter/more efficient hardware.

what do u mean there's no support for it? BF3, probably the most popular game out now, and all Frostbite engine 2 games will ONLY be DX 10/11. Steam survey shows 85% of the market has a DX10 or DX11 video card, so why even bother with DX9? only for WinXP, that's it! Hopefully with Win8 this year and its 39.99 upgrade for all users (even WinXp users), everyone will have a DX10/11 OS and it'll finally be ditched!

 

[Dribble]

In my previous experience every time a major new DX comes out:
-all games are still built using the last one for the next 2+ years.
-some games are announced with fanfare that use the next DX. What this in fact means is they have an additional 1-2 minor features using the new DX that only professional reviewers using static screen shots can point out.
-eventually when cards get powerful enough to use the next DX properly and most machines support it (even cheap integrated graphics) devs switch and that's we really start to see the benefits.

 

[poohbear]

you don't need a powerful machine to run DX 10 & 11, it was designed to do the same stuff as DX9 using LESS resources.

 

[Smoblikat]

what do u mean there's no support for it? BF3, probably the most popular game out now, and all Frostbite engine 2 games will ONLY be DX 10/11. Steam survey shows 85% of the market has a DX10 or DX11 video card, so why even bother with DX9? only for WinXP, that's it! Hopefully with Win8 this year and its 39.99 upgrade for all users (even WinXp users), everyone will have a DX10/11 OS and it'll finally be ditched!

I wouldnt say BF3 is the most popular game, even if it was its not the ONLY game theer is. Isnt all the valve games (TF2 and prior) still DX9, at least thats what it says in the options menu of HL2 and the like.

 

[taltamir]

you don't need a powerful machine to run DX 10 & 11, it was designed to do the same stuff as DX9 using LESS resources.

that is correct. And there have actually been a few games that switched to DX10 from DX9 for identical/slightly improved image quality at hugely improved FPS.

 

[hokies83]

Yeah consoles are kinda crappy... Watch them use something likea gtx 580 or 590..

 

[taltamir]

Yeah consoles are kinda crappy... Watch them use something likea gtx 580 or 590..

Didn't all 3 next gen consoles license AMD tech?
IIRC APU + low end GPU in xfire.

Way way way lower performance then the GTX 580.

 

[hokies83]

Didn't all 3 next gen consoles license AMD tech?
IIRC APU + low end GPU in xfire.

Way way way lower performance then the GTX 580.

Wow that bad huh D:

All my brother talks about is console gaming.. I built him a Computer i5 750 oc 4ghz with Sli gtx 275s... which should blow these next consoles out of the water..

And he could upgrade to a 680 or something...

Trying to get him to get a Xbox 360 controller for pc and hook it up to his TV.. making it the samething as a console... with out the fear of downloading games and having your system blocked..

 

[PrincessFrosty]

DirectX 1-9 were all backwards compatible up until XP. With the new Vista driver model update DX10 onwards has remained backwards compatible and to my knowledge the plan is to keep that backwards compatibility going forward, so I would expect DX10/11/12 to all be backwards compatible.

Generally speaking what happens is that each generation of DirectX has specific hardware requirements in order for GPUs to process the API correctly, hardware will have to meet whatever requirements are expected for DX12, typically the current generation of cards wont support DX12, you'll likely need a new card.

However most (good) developers code in fallback effects for older DirectX paths, so if your hardware doesn't support a fancy new DX12 explosion it will use a simpler DX11 one.

There's usually a good 3+ years between the release of a new DirectX API and the first games that are bold enough to make that API a requirement and many more years before it's common to see the new API a requirement.

 

[MrK6]

what do u mean there's no support for it? BF3, probably the most popular game out now, and all Frostbite engine 2 games will ONLY be DX 10/11. Steam survey shows 85% of the market has a DX10 or DX11 video card, so why even bother with DX9? only for WinXP, that's it! Hopefully with Win8 this year and its 39.99 upgrade for all users (even WinXp users), everyone will have a DX10/11 OS and it'll finally be ditched!

After three years we have one exclusive game that's halfway popular. Thanks for proving my point.