Snow: Lawsuits Restraining Economy

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: irwincur
Trail Lawyers are the #1 reason why Health Care costs are so high.

Are you a doctor or did you just stay at a Holiday Inn Express? We have a rapidly aging population and we have seen a tremendous increase in advanced medical technology (procedural and pharmaceuticals) . . . yet the #1 reason healthcare costs so much in America is trial lawyers?!

A doctor can't do anything these days without the fear of a multi million dollar lawsuit.

Let me help you out . . . not doing anything is one of the best ways to face a lawsuit. Also high on the list is doing the wrong thing for a given situation. If it violates the standard of care . . . a MD should be worried. If it does not violate the standard of care . . . it still might lead to a poor outcome but it's highly unlikely to be a lawsuit.

Why are drugs so expensive? Because law suits.

Well actually you have to "discover" interesting entitities, then you have to find the best candidates amongst the interesting ones, then you have to test in some animals, then you test in a few people (is it safe), then you test in a few more people (does it work at all), then you test in a lot more people (does it reliably work), then you market it to physicians and the general public. But clearly it's the lawsuits! I have an off-label study funded by industry which pays $5,000 per patient. Our multi-site psychosis (schizophrenia) grant renewal was just submitted with an average of $40k per patient . . . your tax dollars at work. Our typical industry funded project requires $1k per year per patient just for data management/statistical analysis.

The liberals and lawyers have been working hand in hand over the last two decades to destroy the Health Care system. For one end, Socialized Health Care, and the opportunity for the lawyers to next begin suing the most lucrative victim of them all - the government.

So who formed the unholy alliance that produced the new Medicare Drug Benefit that PROHIBITS the use of collective bargaining to reduce the cost of drugs. Which members have so fiercely advocated the prohibition of drug imports from Canadian pharmacies?

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: Michael
Riprorin - isn't it the democrats who are supposed to be jealous of people's hard earned money? Are you sure you're using the right play book?

Michael

ps - I agree that the good system of having the courts be an extra source of protection have been abused. Asbestos is by far an overplayed threat. They need to be reined in. However, Bush has had 4 years and there's barely been any progress on that front.

Theres a little thing in the US called Congress. Tort reform has been argued several times, and it gets no where. Not exactly Bush's fault.

 

[YellowRose]

Well how about some info here. We in Texas for some unknow reason agreed to set a limit on damages in a medical malpractice suit. The story was the doctors malpractice rate insurance would drop therefore removing a stumbling block for doctors wanting to pratice in Texas but wouldn't due to high malpratice insurance rates. So what happened after the bill passed and was approved.
Malpractice insurance rates jumped 25% to 60 % and they have continued to climb.

Also an article I was reading yesterday was citing the number of product recalls have been increasing on a yearly basis. Then you wonder why people sue. The article mentioned one poor woman who received her recall notice the day after her vehicle burst into flames. Had the auto company not delayed recalling their vehicles this woman whould still have her vehicle. Good thing noone was injured in her case.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: smashp
We should Ban Trial Lawyers Completly. Noble corporations never do Wrong so there is no need to ever sue them.....:roll:

God Save the corporation and release them from liability. F@ck consumer protection

Edwards is worth more than Bush and Cheney COMBINED. Nice biz lining your pockets on the backs of asbestos victims.

Well Cheney basically parlayed his government connections into mad contracts for Halliburton. Bush the Lesser left investors at Spectrum 7, Arbusto, and Harkken with . . . umm . . . nothing. Yet he always collected a paycheck. He then assisted in the orchestrated theft of private property through an illegal imminent domain claim followed by conning the people of Arlington into financing a stadium for the Rangers. His borrowed $600k netted him $25m.

As for Edwards, I challenge you to provide a SINGLE asbestos case he has filed. The mills of the Piedmont and Foothills of NC produced significant morbidity and mortality in our state but few have faced lawsuits. Maybe it has something to do with his background (Edwards' father and Edwards' himself worked in the mills) or maybe it's the common knowledge that inhaling a bunch of crap is bad for you.

Regardless, you can still buy a pool in NC and you can still give birth . . . but it's getting pretty hard to keep a textile mill open . . . must be those damn trial lawyers?!

 

[Michael]

This may be an even further shock, but BaliBabyDoc is correct that the effect of malpractice lawsuits is overblown. It is bad and should be better controlled (I like California's system of a cap), but it isn't the underpinnings of why medical care is more expensive.

Michael

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: Michael
Riprorin - isn't it the democrats who are supposed to be jealous of people's hard earned money? Are you sure you're using the right play book?

Michael

ps - I agree that the good system of having the courts be an extra source of protection have been abused. Asbestos is by far an overplayed threat. They need to be reined in. However, Bush has had 4 years and there's barely been any progress on that front.

Theres a little thing in the US called Congress. Tort reform has been argued several times, and it gets no where. Not exactly Bush's fault.

Class action reform bill being considered this week

On Oct. 22, 2003, a motion to consider the Class Action Fairness Act of 2003 (S. 1751) was defeated in the U.S. Senate. The vote was 59-39 ? one vote short of the 60 votes needed to consider the bill.
Kerry: Did not vote
Edwards: Did not vote
Big suprise - the only 2 that didn't vote


Class Action Fairness Act (H.R. 1115) (06.12.03)
The U.S. House of Representatives passed the Class Action Fairness Act (H.R. 1115 ) on June 12 by a vote of 253-170.

 

[Spencer278]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Don't you think that 50% is a bit steep?

Wouldn't it have been nice if the people who are suffering from the devastating effects of asbestos got a little bigger slice of the pie?

I'm sure they could use it more than Edwards, who has amassed a fortune of somewhere around $800 million.

So which is it? It cost to much to sue companies or is it to easy to sue and get millions? The repblucian's tort reform would make the 50% cut go up to 70%.

What do you want for lawsuit reform. I would like to see better jury selection and trials that move faster and less apeals.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: Michael
This may be an even further shock, but BaliBabyDoc is correct that the effect of malpractice lawsuits is overblown. It is bad and should be better controlled (I like California's system of a cap), but it isn't the underpinnings of why medical care is more expensive.

Michael

Well as long as the shock comes from our agreement and not the fact that I'm correct . . . I guess we agree. Truth be told, medmal does represent a marginal increase in the cost of healthcare. To the extent, that judgments remove money from the healthcare system they are indeed a drag on the system. But even if the % was more significant than the low single figures (it's not), there's no guarantee that the money saved would be invested in providing more or better healthcare.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Riprorin

I'm sure they could use it more than Edwards, who has amassed a fortune of somewhere around $800 million.

That's an outright lie, which marks a significant downturn in the quality of your already wildly-exaggerated rhetoric. Even the highest estimates of Edwards' personal wealth are less than a tenth of this amount.

As Ronald Reagan would say, "well. there you go again".

What's up with you Libs and the lie thing?

I slipped a decimal, it should be $80 million.

He's still worth more than Bush and Cheney combined, for those of you who are counting.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: irwincur
Trail Lawyers are the #1 reason why Health Care costs are so high.

Are you a doctor or did you just stay at a Holiday Inn Express? We have a rapidly aging population and we have seen a tremendous increase in advanced medical technology (procedural and pharmaceuticals) . . . yet the #1 reason healthcare costs so much in America is trial lawyers?!

A doctor can't do anything these days without the fear of a multi million dollar lawsuit.

Let me help you out . . . not doing anything is one of the best ways to face a lawsuit. Also high on the list is doing the wrong thing for a given situation. If it violates the standard of care . . . a MD should be worried. If it does not violate the standard of care . . . it still might lead to a poor outcome but it's highly unlikely to be a lawsuit.

Why are drugs so expensive? Because law suits.

Well actually you have to "discover" interesting entitities, then you have to find the best candidates amongst the interesting ones, then you have to test in some animals, then you test in a few people (is it safe), then you test in a few more people (does it work at all), then you test in a lot more people (does it reliably work), then you market it to physicians and the general public. But clearly it's the lawsuits! I have an off-label study funded by industry which pays $5,000 per patient. Our multi-site psychosis (schizophrenia) grant renewal was just submitted with an average of $40k per patient . . . your tax dollars at work. Our typical industry funded project requires $1k per year per patient just for data management/statistical analysis.

The liberals and lawyers have been working hand in hand over the last two decades to destroy the Health Care system. For one end, Socialized Health Care, and the opportunity for the lawyers to next begin suing the most lucrative victim of them all - the government.

So who formed the unholy alliance that produced the new Medicare Drug Benefit that PROHIBITS the use of collective bargaining to reduce the cost of drugs. Which members have so fiercely advocated the prohibition of drug imports from Canadian pharmacies?

not only owned, but owned with credibility ...

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Riprorin

I'm sure they could use it more than Edwards, who has amassed a fortune of somewhere around $800 million.

That's an outright lie, which marks a significant downturn in the quality of your already wildly-exaggerated rhetoric. Even the highest estimates of Edwards' personal wealth are less than a tenth of this amount.

As Ronald Reagan would say, "well. there you go again".

What's up with you Libs and the lie thing?

I slipped a decimal, it should be $80 million.

He's still worth more than Bush and Cheney combined, for those of you who are counting.

You know there's a sizeable difference between $80 million and $800 million, both in terms of comparability and magnitude. And that WAS a lie, and it and your reaction discredit any point you may have been trying to make.

I'd like to see reputable figures as to Kerry's, Bush's, Cheney's, and Edward's worth.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Orsorum
I'm curious, I still haven't seen much corroboration for the claim Edwards was an irresponsible or unscrupulous trial lawyer. I've seen evidence that he actually WAS a trial lawyer, and a few snide comments that unfairly attack and generalize trial lawyers, but no evidence that he was an ambulance chaser.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Riprorin

I'm sure they could use it more than Edwards, who has amassed a fortune of somewhere around $800 million.

That's an outright lie, which marks a significant downturn in the quality of your already wildly-exaggerated rhetoric. Even the highest estimates of Edwards' personal wealth are less than a tenth of this amount.

As Ronald Reagan would say, "well. there you go again".

What's up with you Libs and the lie thing?

I slipped a decimal, it should be $80 million.

He's still worth more than Bush and Cheney combined, for those of you who are counting.

You know there's a sizeable difference between $80 million and $800 million, both in terms of comparability and magnitude. And that WAS a lie, and it and your reaction discredit any point you may have been trying to make.

I'd like to see reputable figures as to Kerry's, Bush's, Cheney's, and Edward's worth.

Imagine that, Uber Wealthy Politicians willing to change the tax structure in which they will have to pay more taxes. I guess that's putting your money where your mouth is! Admirable to say the least!

 

[sMiLeYz]

Cheney and Bush worth less than Edwards, combined? Hah! Unless you have the data to back it up, quit pulling figures of out of your ass, Rip.

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: Michael
Riprorin - isn't it the democrats who are supposed to be jealous of people's hard earned money? Are you sure you're using the right play book?

Michael

ps - I agree that the good system of having the courts be an extra source of protection have been abused. Asbestos is by far an overplayed threat. They need to be reined in. However, Bush has had 4 years and there's barely been any progress on that front.

Theres a little thing in the US called Congress. Tort reform has been argued several times, and it gets no where. Not exactly Bush's fault.

Class action reform bill being considered this week

On Oct. 22, 2003, a motion to consider the Class Action Fairness Act of 2003 (S. 1751) was defeated in the U.S. Senate. The vote was 59-39 ? one vote short of the 60 votes needed to consider the bill.
Kerry: Did not vote
Edwards: Did not vote
Big suprise - the only 2 that didn't vote


Class Action Fairness Act (H.R. 1115) (06.12.03)
The U.S. House of Representatives passed the Class Action Fairness Act (H.R. 1115 ) on June 12 by a vote of 253-170.

This Week

Except Frist Has Limited Amendments that can Be attached to the Bill. Then Frist filled all the Open Amendment spaces he defined with his own amendments. now the Bill Will DIE and Why, Frist. Even the Democrat co-sponcering the bill and Many GOP Faithfull are saying what the Majortiy Leader has done is KIll a good bill that would Pass. Now they Just Wasted a week. And Now The GOP can Claim DEMOCRATS stopped the Bill.


Watch Cspan once in a while

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Orsorum
You know there's a sizeable difference between $80 million and $800 million, both in terms of comparability and magnitude. And that WAS a lie, and it and your reaction discredit any point you may have been trying to make.

I'd like to see reputable figures as to Kerry's, Bush's, Cheney's, and Edward's worth.

Imagine that, Uber Wealthy Politicians willing to change the tax structure in which they will have to pay more taxes. I guess that's putting your money where your mouth is! Admirable to say the least!

Indeed!

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Riprorin

I'm sure they could use it more than Edwards, who has amassed a fortune of somewhere around $800 million.

That's an outright lie, which marks a significant downturn in the quality of your already wildly-exaggerated rhetoric. Even the highest estimates of Edwards' personal wealth are less than a tenth of this amount.

As Ronald Reagan would say, "well. there you go again".

What's up with you Libs and the lie thing?

I slipped a decimal, it should be $80 million.

He's still worth more than Bush and Cheney combined, for those of you who are counting.

You know there's a sizeable difference between $80 million and $800 million, both in terms of comparability and magnitude. And that WAS a lie, and it and your reaction discredit any point you may have been trying to make.

I'd like to see reputable figures as to Kerry's, Bush's, Cheney's, and Edward's worth.

A start:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/18/tue/

John Kerry and Teresa Heinz Kerry
Kerry assets: $683,000 to $2,695,000

Joint assets: $100,000 to $250,000 (Fleet Bank account)

Heinz Kerry assets: At least $188,279,000

Kerry + Heinz Kerry total assets: At least $189,062,000

Kerry solo liabilities: $10,000 to $15,000

Heinz Kerry liabilities: At least $27,050,000

Kerry + Heinz Kerry liabilities: At least $27,060,000

Kerry net worth: $668,000 to $2,685,000

Heinz Kerry net worth: Incalculable based on available data

Kerry received $89,200 in royalties in 2003 from publisher Viking Penguin for his campaign tome "A Call to Service."

The Kerrys jointly own a painting for investment purposes, which earned the couple between $100,000 and $1 million in capital gains income.

Heinz Kerry owns a share of the "Thyme Square Restaurant" valued between $250,000 to $500,000.

Heinz Kerry owns a share of "Flying Squirrel, Inc," a charter airplane company which her husband used during the primaries. Her stake is valued at over $1 million.


Bush
Assets: $7,763,000 to $19,145,000

Liabilities: None reported

Estimated net worth: $7,763,000 to $19,145,000

Major assets include his 1,583-acre ranch in Crawford, Texas, valued between $1 million and $5 million

A significant portion of the president's assets are tied up in low-risk investments: between $700,000 and $1.5 million in certificates of deposit and between $5 million and $10.1 million in U.S. Treasury notes.

Bush has between $50,000 and $100,000 in a 401(k) retirement account from his stint as Texas governor


Cheney
Assets: $23,899,000 to $111,210,000

Liabilities: None reported

Estimated net worth: $23,899,000 to $111,210,000

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/06/13/senators.finances/

Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina was not hurting. He reported a net worth ranging from $12.8 million to $60 million.

Sooo...Bush/Cheney range from $31.7 million - $130.3 million in net worth while Kerry/Edwards range from $13.5 million - $62.6 million in net worth.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Cheney and Bush worth less than Edwards, combined? Hah! Unless you have the data to back it up, quit pulling figures of out of your ass, Rip.

Yeah, I find that almost impossible to believe. The problem, and I sincerely don't mean this in a derogatory way, is that both President Bush and VP Cheney have deep corporate entanglements (Cheney, e.g., still holds $18M in Halliburton stock options) that make it very difficult to assess their actual worth. My gut tells me that the Bush family as a whole has money that would make Edwards look like a piker (but obviously that's sheer speculation on my part), and unlike Edwards' significant fortune, it's a dynastic wealth whose precise value is very hard to pin down.

In any case, Sen Edwards earned every penny he owns, and I find it comical that the very Republicans who so value capitalism and personal accomplishment are now implying it's somehow negative that, if it's true, Sen Edwards managed to earn more in his 20 or so years of practice than President Bush and VP Cheney combined.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Cheney and Bush worth less than Edwards, combined? Hah! Unless you have the data to back it up, quit pulling figures of out of your ass, Rip.

but aren't you doing the same thing by assuming that Bush and Cheney combined are worth more? how about you post some data that supports your thoughts instead of just believing it and posting your crap here.

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Riprorin

I'm sure they could use it more than Edwards, who has amassed a fortune of somewhere around $800 million.

That's an outright lie, which marks a significant downturn in the quality of your already wildly-exaggerated rhetoric. Even the highest estimates of Edwards' personal wealth are less than a tenth of this amount.

As Ronald Reagan would say, "well. there you go again".

What's up with you Libs and the lie thing?

I slipped a decimal, it should be $80 million.

He's still worth more than Bush and Cheney combined, for those of you who are counting.

You know there's a sizeable difference between $80 million and $800 million, both in terms of comparability and magnitude. And that WAS a lie, and it and your reaction discredit any point you may have been trying to make.

I'd like to see reputable figures as to Kerry's, Bush's, Cheney's, and Edward's worth.

A start:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/18/tue/

John Kerry and Teresa Heinz Kerry
Kerry assets: $683,000 to $2,695,000

Joint assets: $100,000 to $250,000 (Fleet Bank account)

Heinz Kerry assets: At least $188,279,000

Kerry + Heinz Kerry total assets: At least $189,062,000

Kerry solo liabilities: $10,000 to $15,000

Heinz Kerry liabilities: At least $27,050,000

Kerry + Heinz Kerry liabilities: At least $27,060,000

Kerry net worth: $668,000 to $2,685,000

Heinz Kerry net worth: Incalculable based on available data

Kerry received $89,200 in royalties in 2003 from publisher Viking Penguin for his campaign tome "A Call to Service."

The Kerrys jointly own a painting for investment purposes, which earned the couple between $100,000 and $1 million in capital gains income.

Heinz Kerry owns a share of the "Thyme Square Restaurant" valued between $250,000 to $500,000.

Heinz Kerry owns a share of "Flying Squirrel, Inc," a charter airplane company which her husband used during the primaries. Her stake is valued at over $1 million.


Bush
Assets: $7,763,000 to $19,145,000

Liabilities: None reported

Estimated net worth: $7,763,000 to $19,145,000

Major assets include his 1,583-acre ranch in Crawford, Texas, valued between $1 million and $5 million

A significant portion of the president's assets are tied up in low-risk investments: between $700,000 and $1.5 million in certificates of deposit and between $5 million and $10.1 million in U.S. Treasury notes.

Bush has between $50,000 and $100,000 in a 401(k) retirement account from his stint as Texas governor


Cheney
Assets: $23,899,000 to $111,210,000

Liabilities: None reported

Estimated net worth: $23,899,000 to $111,210,000

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/06/13/senators.finances/

Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina was not hurting. He reported a net worth ranging from $12.8 million to $60 million.

Sooo...Bush/Cheney range from $31.7 million - $130.3 million in net worth while Kerry/Edwards range from $13.5 million - $62.6 million in net worth.

Does Someone Smell something Burning......must be Riprorin

 

[sMiLeYz]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Cheney and Bush worth less than Edwards, combined? Hah! Unless you have the data to back it up, quit pulling figures of out of your ass, Rip.

but aren't you doing the same thing by assuming that Bush and Cheney combined are worth more? how about you post some data that supports your thoughts instead of just believing it and posting your crap here.

Do yourself a favor and buy yourself a clue. Get some reading comprehendsion while your at it.

I didn't claim anything Rip did, I was merely calling up the fact Rip didn't backup up his claims with data.

 

[sMiLeYz]

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Riprorin

I'm sure they could use it more than Edwards, who has amassed a fortune of somewhere around $800 million.

That's an outright lie, which marks a significant downturn in the quality of your already wildly-exaggerated rhetoric. Even the highest estimates of Edwards' personal wealth are less than a tenth of this amount.

As Ronald Reagan would say, "well. there you go again".

What's up with you Libs and the lie thing?

I slipped a decimal, it should be $80 million.

He's still worth more than Bush and Cheney combined, for those of you who are counting.

You know there's a sizeable difference between $80 million and $800 million, both in terms of comparability and magnitude. And that WAS a lie, and it and your reaction discredit any point you may have been trying to make.

I'd like to see reputable figures as to Kerry's, Bush's, Cheney's, and Edward's worth.

A start:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/18/tue/

John Kerry and Teresa Heinz Kerry
Kerry assets: $683,000 to $2,695,000

Joint assets: $100,000 to $250,000 (Fleet Bank account)

Heinz Kerry assets: At least $188,279,000

Kerry + Heinz Kerry total assets: At least $189,062,000

Kerry solo liabilities: $10,000 to $15,000

Heinz Kerry liabilities: At least $27,050,000

Kerry + Heinz Kerry liabilities: At least $27,060,000

Kerry net worth: $668,000 to $2,685,000

Heinz Kerry net worth: Incalculable based on available data

Kerry received $89,200 in royalties in 2003 from publisher Viking Penguin for his campaign tome "A Call to Service."

The Kerrys jointly own a painting for investment purposes, which earned the couple between $100,000 and $1 million in capital gains income.

Heinz Kerry owns a share of the "Thyme Square Restaurant" valued between $250,000 to $500,000.

Heinz Kerry owns a share of "Flying Squirrel, Inc," a charter airplane company which her husband used during the primaries. Her stake is valued at over $1 million.


Bush
Assets: $7,763,000 to $19,145,000

Liabilities: None reported

Estimated net worth: $7,763,000 to $19,145,000

Major assets include his 1,583-acre ranch in Crawford, Texas, valued between $1 million and $5 million

A significant portion of the president's assets are tied up in low-risk investments: between $700,000 and $1.5 million in certificates of deposit and between $5 million and $10.1 million in U.S. Treasury notes.

Bush has between $50,000 and $100,000 in a 401(k) retirement account from his stint as Texas governor


Cheney
Assets: $23,899,000 to $111,210,000

Liabilities: None reported

Estimated net worth: $23,899,000 to $111,210,000

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/06/13/senators.finances/

Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina was not hurting. He reported a net worth ranging from $12.8 million to $60 million.

Sooo...Bush/Cheney range from $31.7 million - $130.3 million in net worth while Kerry/Edwards range from $13.5 million - $62.6 million in net worth.

Does Someone Smell something Burning......must be Riprorin

A thought occured to me...

Ya know if Riprorin was really concerned with facts, he wouldn't be voting with Bush.

 

[Michael]

BaliBabyDoc - Agreement. The facts shouldn't be shocking to anyone who has actually looked into it.

The threat of lawsuits pushes up insurance costs and increases the amount of defensive medicine which increases costs. That's a fact. However, the conclusion that the is the main reason why medical costs have risen is incorrect and you and I agree on that.

This is less true for some specialties. Anything around delivering babies is hit really, really hard and it is forcing care out of many communities.

Michael

 

[Red Dawn]

Ripsnortin likes to make up facts as he goes along. This thread is case in proof!

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: Michael
BaliBabyDoc - Agreement. The facts shouldn't be shocking to anyone who has actually looked into it.

The threat of lawsuits pushes up insurance costs and increases the amount of defensive medicine which increases costs. That's a fact. However, the conclusion that the is the main reason why medical costs have risen is incorrect and you and I agree on that.

This is less true for some specialties. Anything around delivering babies is hit really, really hard and it is forcing care out of many communities.

Michael

Yes, lawsuits are pushing medmal insurance up but those rates are also rising secondary to:
1) increased utilization of high risk procedures

2) increased utilization of high risk procedures in low volume (community hospitals)

3) the investment portfolios of major underwriters sucked some serious wind when the bubble burst.

I typically do not read Health Affairs but I imagine these facts are more substantial than trial lawyers per se. Of course, if there were not any trial lawyers #1 and #2 wouldn't matter as much.

I've always had a beef with the notion of "defensive" medicine. I can honestly say I have never seen or performed a test or procedure due to concern over liability. IMHO, defensive medicine is a euphemism for crappy doctor/hospital. We can do everything right and still have a bad outcome. Everybody knows that EXCEPT for patients. As I said before, there's abundant evidence that physicians/doctors do a crappy job of explaining complicated material to patients. It's part poor communication skills, part poorly educated population, and part human nature (it's hard to focus when someone's telling you bad news).

The marginal increased costs due to "defensive" medicine is just as much an indictment of our system of medical training and healthcare delivery as it is of trial lawyers.

Admittedly, the OB thing has gotten out of hand. But here's the rub, my first delivery was like playing catch . . . I was told to grab the kid by the neck . . . being a know-it-all I thought that was ridiculous. Anyway, the kid all but shot out of this woman's coochie and damn if he wasn't slippery as a mofo. In the old days, women went into the woods, squatted, and then came back home with a bundle. In sum, many, many childbirths don't need a 6-figure MD.

On the flipside, I saw one mother that had so many cervical and vaginal wall lacerations that it looked like the kid might have been clawing to keep from coming out . . . we are talking A LOT of stitches to fix that one. I've seen kids get stuck and require suction delivery, forceps delivery, or even Ceasarian. Obviously, those women need a highly trained, highly competent (and accordingly highly paid) physician. I delivered 6 babies in 6 weeks but nobody was crazy enough to let me open up a woman for C-section or leave me unsupervised.

All it takes is a few inferior OBs to drive everyone's rates up b/c it's a collective pool. In a given state you may be talking about thousands . . . maybe even only hundreds of OBs being covered. If everybody is good it doesn't matter if a few scattered bad outcomes go to trial or settle. But weak doctors in such a setting have a dramatic influence on all rate payers . . . not to mention their patients.