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Sneak peak look at x1800xt from ibiza
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Yay, let's attribute the card's overclocking ability to something done at liquid nitrogen temperatures, that's surely not an utter logical fallacy.
Here's a thought; instead of actually trying (and subsequently failing) to post something on topic, how about you just sum up all of your posts by just copying and pasting "Hay guyz I like ATi ATi rox R520 is teh best hay guys ATi wins YAY!"
The net effect is pretty much the same.
Well if the X1800 was overclocked over 200mhz more with phase cooling and the 7800 was overclocked to 300mhz on the same. And since the 7800 can overclock 50mhz without changing the cooling well...
Its pretty logical to think that you could overclock this card quite a bit without changing much wouldnt you. And since its on a 90nm core and dual slot cooling i think you could overclock the card probably another 50mhz without having to go for more extreme cooling methods.
Here's a thought why not trying to attack someone for his pretty much polite thoughts on this matter. Its not like hes forcing you to accept it like you are.
Your posting something even further off topic than he is since that statement in his post actually has every right to be in this thread as its talking about its overclocking abilities while yours just seems to want to slam him. Nice going on critizing something your doing.
Look at the logic behind that; it's not numbers, it's percentages...if you could get ~300 mhz on phase from a 7800, it'd be a 70% overclock compared to the ~36% overclock obtained from the x1800XT from your listed numbers. If it takes LN2 cooling to achieve 36% overclock, it's a fair guess to say it's probably clocked high enough at stock and likely can't scale much higher using standard (air) cooling methods.
I mentioned that about M0RPH because his fanboy bias makes for some rather useless comments...saying something wasn't clocked to its limits because you can LN2 it higher is hardly a logical assumption. Honestly, these exact same overclockers got 6 ghz out of a P4 on LN2, and yet Intel could only release it at 3.8 ghz, and you can't get much more out of a P4 on extreme air anyway. What brings M0RPH to believe that extreme cooling has any correlation to standard working temperatures (as well as yields at such high speeds) is beyond me.
Oh well, 2 more days left till the end of all the speculation anyway.
kamranziadar
Banned
I like the benchmark results, 1800XT is about 20% faster than 7800GTX in the benchmark. The only thing left is the price of 1800XT?
Give it up dude. Sources at xtremesystems.org have said that the card has been overclocked pretty heavily with just air cooling. If you have a card that can't be overclocked at all with air cooling (as you suggest), LN2 is not going to suddenly allow a 37% overclock. The temperature factor is not THAT important.
Anyway, why argue about it? Two more days and we'll see. I'm sure Anand will test how well it overclocks. My prediction is that it will be a good overclocker and if the rumor about adjustable vcore is true, ATI is doing a great thing for overclockers. Nvidia will have to respond with the same feature in their next generation card. End result... we all win.
natto fire
Diamond Member
sigh... but there will only be a short break until it is time to start speculating about another card. It is a vicious, and beautiful, cycle. I think the delays and tape outs made this particular round more intense. Either way, I hope my flame suit can take 2 more days. I know it will need to be replaced before we see R580/600, G80 threads start popping up in force.
Cheers! :beer:
That's so incredibly dense that it's almost sig-worthy. You're saying that aftermarket copper heatsinks, water cooling systems, phase-change cascade coolers, and liquid nitrogen/dry ice cooling is all completely useless, and that any overclock can be done at any temperature? Why stick a dual slot cooler on R520 anyway, it can get as hot as it wants, right?
I think we at least agree that we can wait 2 days. If they actually have some for sale, I'm sure our resident O/C enthusiasts will see what they are capable of soon enough.
You got to also consider that the 6800 had a core speed of 400 and for the 7800GTX they only increased it to 430 as standard. Thats not much of a speed hike.
For the X1800XT the supposed (still rumour) speed is 625 from the 540 of the X850XT-PE. If you as you say take it as percentages thats a speed hike of 16% While the speed hike of the 6800 - 7800 is 8%.
Anandtech was able to get on, standard cooling, 500mhz. So the percentage in overclocking would have been. From 430 to 500 it is 16%. But what happens if the 7800 had 16% of a core clock increase as standard? the 7800 core would be 460 and the percentage would be 9% at best. And vice versa.
So if the core clock was 460 it would have room for what... 52%. Thats only a 16% difference.
The difference from 430 to 500 is 70mhz which is about 16%. 16% In terms of the X850 to X1800 is about 90Mhz.
So Percentage wise we can overclock the X1800 less and get more mhz out of it!
All im trying to say is that because nVidia didnt jump their core clock so high resulted in the fact that the core can overclock very easily much higher. And you noticed how easy it was for ppl to oc their card up to 450mhz. And what happened to the 3dMark05 scores when that happened (i know its synthetic but its the easiest to get a general performance mark) the scores jumped a huge margin.
We dont know the score that they have on 3DMark05 for the OCed X1800XT but if the margin has jumped like it has on the 7800GTX with its performance with the dubious sell sheets, it might have a larger impact for a smaller percentage increase in mhz.
So again percentages dont count. Or should i say MIGHT not count. Because of what i said in the last paragraph.
And with the CPU, another place where percentages dont count. You can overclock a 3.8Ghz Intel CPU to 6Ghz and it get amazing performance (if it lasts that long :S) but thats an OC of about 55%
You can OC an AMD 35% and it would be quite a bit better. Thats from 2.8 to 3.8Ghz.
So percentages dont really work because one can do more work in each cycle than the other. Percentages are good at telling how much of an increase there is from the previous iteration of the GPU but not what kind of performance it can have.
So this is pretty much what it boils down to performance.
Ronin
Diamond Member
You can bet when I get a hold of mine, I'll be giving it a run for it's money. As far as what's going on at Xtremesystems, I think LN benchmarks hold very little, if any, weight. 98% of the enthusiast market can't afford that type of cooling (and heaven knows it's not constant, either), so what we're concerned about is the other 98% that are a little less overzealous (air cooling, modified HSF, things of that nature).
Indeed, 2 more days. I'm just as excited as the rest of you..I can't wait to see how things turn out, for all our sakes.
Indeed, 2 more days. I'm just as excited as the rest of you..I can't wait to see how things turn out, for all our sakes.
Maybe you missed the stress on the word "that". Of course temp is probably the most important factor but it's not the only factor involved. If a card like the X1800XT could not overclock at all or very little (as you sugest) with it's big cooler, then it's most likely being limited by something other than temp. In that case, you wouldn't expect exotic cooling to suddenly give you a huge overclock.
Ronin
Diamond Member
If you're referring to fill rate, that's correct.
In theory:
Core Frequency x Pixel/Texture Pipelines = Fill rate
Stock 7800GTX = 430x24 = 10324MTexels/s
Stock X1800 (estimated) = 625x16 = 10000MTexels/s
Now, with memory bandwidth, which is Memory Bus Width x Memory Speed
Stock 7800GTX = 600x256bit = 38.4GB/s
Stock X1800 (estimated) = 700x256bit = 44.8GB/s (800x256bit = 51.2GB/s).
ATi has stated their memory bus might be a little different this time around, so the memory bandwidth calculations are really speculatory in nature, but based on what we know about memory bandwidth now, this will have to suffice.
In theory:
Core Frequency x Pixel/Texture Pipelines = Fill rate
Stock 7800GTX = 430x24 = 10324MTexels/s
Stock X1800 (estimated) = 625x16 = 10000MTexels/s
Now, with memory bandwidth, which is Memory Bus Width x Memory Speed
Stock 7800GTX = 600x256bit = 38.4GB/s
Stock X1800 (estimated) = 700x256bit = 44.8GB/s (800x256bit = 51.2GB/s).
ATi has stated their memory bus might be a little different this time around, so the memory bandwidth calculations are really speculatory in nature, but based on what we know about memory bandwidth now, this will have to suffice.
Dravyn, I stopped reading after you started comparing the speed between a 6800 to 7800...you do realize that the latter has 50% more pixel pipelines than the 6800 does, right? You can't compare different generations, especially the R400 to R520, since R520 is on 90nm, the numbers will be completely different.
And for god's sake I never said that the R520 won't O/C a single mhz. Every piece of silicon can be overclocked: if it came at the absolute highest speed possible straight from the manufacturer, it would break. However, some processors are inherently closer to that speed, and I'm guessing that after 3 tape outs and a standard dual slot cooler (despite the cooler running 90nm process), that ATi pushed this card rather close to its acceptable limits (we even saw a 25 mhz speed bump). Thus, I don't think it will be a "great" overclocker for those reasons, just a mild/normal o/c. I just think people like M0RPH pretending it will be the best O/C'er ever are ignoring the common sense reasons (listed above) and giving weight to the less important ones (fanboy love).
And for god's sake I never said that the R520 won't O/C a single mhz. Every piece of silicon can be overclocked: if it came at the absolute highest speed possible straight from the manufacturer, it would break. However, some processors are inherently closer to that speed, and I'm guessing that after 3 tape outs and a standard dual slot cooler (despite the cooler running 90nm process), that ATi pushed this card rather close to its acceptable limits (we even saw a 25 mhz speed bump). Thus, I don't think it will be a "great" overclocker for those reasons, just a mild/normal o/c. I just think people like M0RPH pretending it will be the best O/C'er ever are ignoring the common sense reasons (listed above) and giving weight to the less important ones (fanboy love).
I was never trying to suggest that it would be the 'best overclocker evar!' or anything like that. But I bet you, percentage-wise, it will overclock just as well as the 7800GTX. Especially if it has adjustable vcore. Vcore is often the limiting factor, not temp.
Let's see, I believe 490 is the average top overclok on the GTX from a stock of 430. That's 14%.
To match that an X1800XT would have to overclock by about 87MHz, so from 625 to about 712. Piece of cake.
Let's see, I believe 490 is the average top overclok on the GTX from a stock of 430. That's 14%.
To match that an X1800XT would have to overclock by about 87MHz, so from 625 to about 712. Piece of cake.
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