Snatching Defeat from the Jaws of Victory

[cubby1223]

Hmmm, now which side is motivated to lay all the blame on the Tea Party? That's right, all the Democrats in the world. The Dems in the House, with all the media currently against the Tea Party, as well as John McCain, they have no incentive to vote for anything.

Shall the partisan blame game continue on?

 

[Munky]

FTFY. If the economy crashes and burns because of this manufactured crisis, we certainly will be willing to throw the tea party into the Boston harbor. They took what was a simmering problem that could have been handled in a much more statesmanlike and mature manner and threw gasoline on the fire because they don't get their way. Their petulance is what got us into this mess.

The economy will crash and burn. But not because of the "manufactured" crisis. It will because the "actual" economy is nowhere in line with the "fantasy" economy and recovery the main stream media so loves to rave about.

 

[woolfe9999]

^^^
Seriously?

The "tea baggers" do not comprise a majority in the House. A bill can be passed in the House without a single vote from a Tea Party member. I see a lot of stubborn Democrats in the House as well.

Shall we continue the partisan gameplay some more?

Boehner's bill addresses the issue with 100% spending cuts and zero tax increases. Boehner's bill kicks the debt ceiling can only 6 months down the road before another crisis will emerge. And Boehner's bill does not meet the stated requirements of the debt rating agencies to avoid a bond rating downgrade. We know this because they have said so, explicitly. I fail to see why the dems are being recalcitrant for refusing to sign off on it.

It's funny to see a conservative publication whose best effort to spin this is to make both parties equally responsible. Something is up when even the National Review can't put this all on the democrats with a straight face. When the mainstream right is saying "we suck as bad as them" what does that tell you?

- wolf

 

[cubby1223]

I am curious, though, does anyone here actually know the specifics of either plan, other than which party supports which? I mean, the actual details, not just rough outlines of tax & spending numbers.

Not much to find through google, found this:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/25/us-usa-debt-plans-idUSTRE76O5MS20110725

I mean, to hear the partisan bitching going on everywhere, it's all partisan B.S. It's all about which party "wins the debate", for both the politicians, and all the hacks on this forum.

 

[cubby1223]

Boehner's bill addresses the issue with 100% spending cuts and zero tax increases. Boehner's bill kicks the debt ceiling can only 6 months down the road before another crisis will emerge. And Boehner's bill does not meet the stated requirements of the debt rating agencies to avoid a bond rating downgrade. We know this because they have said so, explicitly. I fail to see why the dems are being recalcitrant for refusing to sign off on it.

It's funny to see a conservative publication whose best effort to spin this is to make both parties equally responsible. Something is up when even the National Review can't put this all on the democrats with a straight face. When the mainstream right is saying "we suck as bad as them" what does that tell you?

- wolf

The Reid plan doesn't raise taxes either.

The Boehner plan allows the debt ceiling to be raised again easily, once spending cuts are actually approved by congress. OH THE HORROR OF IT ALL!!!!!!!!

Next round?

 

[werepossum]

The economy will crash and burn. But not because of the "manufactured" crisis. It will because the "actual" economy is nowhere in line with the "fantasy" economy and recovery the main stream media so loves to rave about.

QFT

This problem is a long time in the making. Both parties are to blame, and we the people are at least as responsible, since we also elected them.

Until we figure out how to bring our wealth consumption into line with our wealth production, this will never be solved. We're going to continue to decline into third world status. I don't know how to fix it, and neither party knows either. Perhaps it can't be fixed. Perhaps we are doomed to slide until we stabilize at the standard of living enjoyed by China - at which time we'll owe them everything we produce just to service our debt, they will own (and collect rent from) all our real estate, and they will own the equivalent of the incredible wealth producing engine we enjoyed after World War II.

 

[etrigan420]

The Reid plan doesn't raise taxes either.

The Boehner plan allows the debt ceiling to be raised again easily, once spending cuts are actually approved by congress. OH THE HORROR OF IT ALL!!!!!!!!

Next round?

Yeah, and we see how swimmingly it's going *this* round, right?

Only a fucking retard would want to do all of this again in 6 months, which I guess kind of explains everything...

 

[woolfe9999]

The Reid plan doesn't raise taxes either.

The Boehner plan allows the debt ceiling to be raised again easily, once spending cuts are actually approved by congress. OH THE HORROR OF IT ALL!!!!!!!!

Next round?

Right. It isn't rocket science what the GOP has to do to get some dem votes. At this point, any form of compromize would do. It's pretty clear looking at the Reid bill that enough dems will accept a deficit reduction bill with ZERO tax increases. All they want is a bigger debt ceiling increase so that we have some stability to ward off the ratings downgrade and so that we do not revisit the crisis next year. This "compromize" is a 90% victory for the GOP. Yet instead of closing the deal, they move their bill further to the right by adding the Balanced Budget Amendment back in. Try to spin this all you want. Both parties are NOT equally intractible here, not this time.

 

[HendrixFan]

Until we figure out how to bring our wealth consumption into line with our wealth production, this will never be solved. We're going to continue to decline into third world status. I don't know how to fix it, and neither party knows either. Perhaps it can't be fixed.

We know how to fix it, we just don't want to. Unless you were referring to trying to figure out how to fix it without paying the price (debt).

Our society has spent decades mooching money off future generations. Our wealth consumption was propped up via deficit spending. Collectively we have been living beyond our means. The solution is to stop living beyond our means, and pay back what we owe. Unfortunately, the people who were borrowed from will also be the ones to take a huge hit on wealth consumption because they will be stuck paying back what was borrowed in their name.

 

[thraashman]

Right. It isn't rocket science what the GOP has to do to get some dem votes. At this point, any form of compromize would do. It's pretty clear looking at the Reid bill that enough dems will accept a deficit reduction bill with ZERO tax increases. All they want is a bigger debt ceiling increase so that we have some stability to ward off the ratings downgrade and so that we do not revisit the crisis next year. This "compromize" is a 90% victory for the GOP. Yet instead of closing the deal, they move their bill further to the right by adding the Balanced Budget Amendment back in. Try to spin this all you want. Both parties are NOT equally intractible here, not this time.

Exactly. Democrats are willing to compromise but not willing to completely give in. Republicans are unwilling to compromise and in fact are even unable to get their own party to support a plan they know for a fact can't pass the Senate, but are still trying. Not only are the unwilling to compromise, they're unwilling to talk about compromising or pull their heads out of their collective ass long enough to realize that if they get their way the US loses it's credit rating, which is the most devestating part of a default to our economy!

 

[woolfe9999]

Exactly. Democrats are willing to compromise but not willing to completely give in. Republicans are unwilling to compromise and in fact are even unable to get their own party to support a plan they know for a fact can't pass the Senate, but are still trying. Not only are the unwilling to compromise, they're unwilling to talk about compromising or pull their heads out of their collective ass long enough to realize that if they get their way the US loses it's credit rating, which is the most devestating part of a default to our economy!

Right now negotiating with the GOP is similar to negotiating with Islamic radicals. Their posture is essentially, give us everything we want and maybe we won't push the economy off a cliff.

I am very prone to find fault with the dems. There was much fault in their handling of the healthcare bill. But honestly, I can't see it here. If there's any criticism of the dems that is valid, it's that they're giving up too much. Raising taxes on high earners by $1 for every $4 of spending cuts is mainstream thinking in this country and they are conceding on it. The dems are willing to give up virtually everything and they're getting a big f-you in return, in a very dangerous situation.

- wolf

 

[theeedude]

Is McConnell going to filibuster the US into a default/shutdown? I want to see him give it a go

 

[Cr0nJ0b]

I love the way the conservatives are playing this as a political game. The debt ceiling as everyone knows has been raised many many times in our history. Usually with debate, but I don't know of any time in our history when this vehicle was used as a hostage to negotiate for concessions from one side or the other. what should happen is that congress should pass the increase or get rid of the ceiling altogher and take the focus off our ability to pay obligations. pick another fight.

I would love to see the mighty power of the conservative caucus write stand-alone legislation that would lower spending, decrease tax subsidies for corporations and individuals to increase revenue and then start to work on getting people to work.

I know it's too much to ask...both sides are too polarized. I hate them all. but in this case I hate the republicans more.

 

[thraashman]

Is McConnell going to filibuster the US into a default/shutdown? I want to see him give it a go

I'm pretty sure McConnell would murder infants and puppies while urinating on an American flag if he thought it would cost Obama re-election. The man is a horrible human being to be given any political power.

 

[wuliheron]

Right now negotiating with the GOP is similar to negotiating with Islamic radicals. Their posture is essentially, give us everything we want and maybe we won't push the economy off a cliff.

I am very prone to find fault with the dems. There was much fault in their handling of the healthcare bill. But honestly, I can't see it here. If there's any criticism of the dems that is valid, it's that they're giving up too much. Raising taxes on high earners by $1 for every $4 of spending cuts is mainstream thinking in this country and they are conceding on it. The dems are willing to give up virtually everything and they're getting a big f-you in return, in a very dangerous situation.

- wolf

The republican party is broken and no amount of glue can put Humpty Dumpty back together again. The democrats know that and are exploiting the split in the party to max. By offering them everything but the kitchen sink they've now positioned themselves as the only possible way to get a serious budget passed. If the republicans don't take the bait they risk ruining the economy or, at least, demonstrating they can't make any real progress. If they take the bait it splits the party even further and the Tea Party looses credibility.

Hence all the melodrama and waiting until the last possible moment. At the very least republicans can claim they tried their very best to live up to their ideals.

 

[theeedude]

I'm pretty sure McConnell would murder infants and puppies while urinating on an American flag if he thought it would cost Obama re-election. The man is a horrible human being to be given any political power.

Dems should force his hand. FORCE him to filibuster. No compromises
But they are too decent to do that.

 

[werepossum]

We know how to fix it, we just don't want to. Unless you were referring to trying to figure out how to fix it without paying the price (debt).

Our society has spent decades mooching money off future generations. Our wealth consumption was propped up via deficit spending. Collectively we have been living beyond our means. The solution is to stop living beyond our means, and pay back what we owe. Unfortunately, the people who were borrowed from will also be the ones to take a huge hit on wealth consumption because they will be stuck paying back what was borrowed in their name.

I agree that we know what we have to do - stop living beyond our means. What I meant was we don't know how to accomplish this. Democrats don't have anything in their quiver except raising taxes on high earners, and confiscating 100% of their income wouldn't solve our problem. Republicans don't have anything in their quiver except cutting spending, yet even within the Republicans there is no consensus on cutting more than a fraction of what we need to cut. We just do not have the collective will to bring our consumption down to our production. Worse, our production is steadily decreasing due to systemic factors that favor using cheap off-shore labor rather than expensive American labor, so our consumption must continually decrease. We can shut down new borrowing completely - although not without great societal pain and an extension to this recession, if not a depression - but our production will continue to fall.

This is the core problem that neither party knows how to fix - perhaps that neither party even truly wishes to fix. Somehow we have to restore that great wealth-producing engine we had built after World War II, but without losing the economic and environmental regulations we need to keep this country a great place to live and work.

The alternative is to adopt a non-consumption based society, where most profit is seized and consumed by government. Live in small apartments, travel via public transportation, don't expect to buy new furniture, clothing, etc. as a matter of lifestyle. Earn less, but use less and want less. Run your computer six years rather than two or three. That's also a valid choice, and while it's not my preference, it is a valid and easier choice. It does require ceding economic superpower to Red China though.

 

[brencat]

The alternative is to adopt a non-consumption based society, where most profit is seized and consumed by government. Live in small apartments, travel via public transportation, don't expect to buy new furniture, clothing, etc. as a matter of lifestyle. Earn less, but use less and want less. Run your computer six years rather than two or three. That's also a valid choice, and while it's not my preference, it is a valid and easier choice. It does require ceding economic superpower to Red China though.

Huh ???

So the people that saved and lived within their means now have to compromise our lifestyle in our golden years after living correctly during our wealth producing and working years just to pay for everyone else's recklessness? No fvcking way. Let the reckless go bankrupt and fend for themselves. I know that sounds cold/cruel... too bad. Maybe if the consequences for being stupid were greater, there would be less stupidity.

 

[CountZero]

How is this so complicated, it is sad. Look when GWB came into power the budget was in decent shape but during his time he increased spending (some of it for good reason) and decreased revenue. Obama came in and increased spending (some of it for good reason) and left revenue flat. Seems pretty obvious that we need to both decrease spending and increase revenue. The fact that the two bills with promise (ha, yeah right) have zero revenue increase should have those tea party morons dancing given they would essentially get all cuts and no tax increases but instead they want to vote against it?

Personally I don't think they care at all about this country, I don't think they are motivated by improving this country one bit. They didn't exist when GWB was in power and increasing the deficit, they just appeared with Obama. They are a group of people with a single goal, make Obama a one term president. It doesn't matter what the cost of doing that is, it doesn't matter how low our country will have to sink to achieve this goal.

They are not fiscally responsible, they are a fiscally unreasonable group that doesn't know how to govern (newsflash, unless you control everything it will require compromise). They've made a joke of our government and highlighted how dysfunctional it is.

 

[werepossum]

Huh ???

So the people that saved and lived within their means now have to compromise our lifestyle in our golden years after living correctly during our wealth producing and working years just to pay for everyone else's recklessness? No fvcking way. Let the reckless go bankrupt and fend for themselves. I know that sounds cold/cruel... too bad. Maybe if the consequences for being stupid were greater, there would be less stupidity.

Yes, I left out a third alternative - reduce government and let people be more exposed to the results of their own behavior. You're certainly right that if the consequences for being stupid were greater, there would be less stupidity. That would still result in most people greatly downsizing their way of life, though. Can't get past the production - consumption imbalance.

 

[Fern]

I like how according to people in this thread it is one side or the other sitting on their hands depending on who you ask. I see both sides coming up with their own versions, just no one wants to meet in the middle. The only portion I don't see offering anything is the tea fuckers.

Dems = Reid proposal
Repubs = Boehner proposal
Tea morons = Make us default to shock people into their ideals.

The TEA Party's proposal is Cap, Cut & Balance.

Neither Boehner's bill nor Reid's will do anything to prevent a credit downgrade. IMO, they're irrelevant.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Right. It isn't rocket science what the GOP has to do to get some dem votes. At this point, any form of compromize would do. It's pretty clear looking at the Reid bill that enough dems will accept a deficit reduction bill with ZERO tax increases. All they want is a bigger debt ceiling increase so that we have some stability to ward off the ratings downgrade and so that we do not revisit the crisis next year. This "compromize" is a 90% victory for the GOP. Yet instead of closing the deal, they move their bill further to the right by adding the Balanced Budget Amendment back in. Try to spin this all you want. Both parties are NOT equally intractible here, not this time.

I don't see how, or why, the TEA Party members would vote for this crap. Neither Boehner's bill or Reid's do enough to stop a credit downgrade.

Whoever ends up getting the almost certain credit downgrade hung around their neck is likely dead politically.

Right or wrong, the TEA Party members were sent to Congress to stop tax increases and stop further debt. If they do either they're as good as unemployed.

Seems to me their calculation, and a rational one, is to not vote for something that guarantees them out of office, and instead take their chances come-what-may at election time.

Anyone expecting TEA Party members to do something suicidal for the 'good of the team' is a fool.

Fern

 

[CountZero]

The TEA Party's proposal is Cap, Cut & Balance.

Neither Boehner's bill nor Reid's will do anything to prevent a credit downgrade. IMO, they're irrelevant.

Fern

Why wouldn't we get a credit downgrade? It seems pretty obvious that our government, as is, is non-functioning. We are three days from not paying our bills and we have not a single credible plan. The group that controls our budget cannot work together.

 

[ProfJohn]

You intended that as a joke, right?

So a whole $80 billion / year in cuts this decade, to continue to dogpile on the debt is 'edge of a huge change'.

It will be the first time ever a debt ceiling increase will include spending cuts.

That IS a huge change in the way things have been done.

 

[Fern]

Why wouldn't we get a credit downgrade? It seems pretty obvious that our government, as is, is non-functioning. We are three days from not paying our bills and we have not a single credible plan. The group that controls our budget cannot work together.

I strongly believe we will suffer a credit downgrade.

I have a thread entitled "Hard Facts, Simple Math and Tough Decisions". As one can see from the numbers I laid out therein, backed up with links, we can NOT get to a $4 trillion debt reduction over 10 yrs without HARD cuts. That's even if you roll back ALL the Bush tax cuts.

Neither side, Dem or Repub, can do that without committing political suicide. How many Repubs will lose reelection if the roll back ALL Bush tax credits thereby increasing taxes on nearly everyone?

Even if that tax cut rollback were to happen, how many Dems could win reelection given the hard cuts to govt programs that would still be required to reach the $4 trillion amount?

We're screwed because Congress has screwed itself by putting themselves in an impossible situation.

IMO, there is no need to worry about not being able to our bills in three days. We've been through this before, most recently in 1995/1996. I just started a thread showing the maneuvers Treasury can do to continue paying bills for months if no deal is reached.

Fern