***Smoking gun found, some gas agents via MSNBC***

[Chadder007]

Of course lets not all jump the gun here. They of course did say that the boxes were "probably" just a distrubution agent such as gunpowder or fuel. The news could be pumping it up all to be nothing but gunpowder in those thousands of boxes. ...I hate it when the news screws up a story like that.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Chadder007
Of course lets not all jump the gun here. They of course did say that the boxes were "probably" just a distrubution agent such as gunpowder or fuel. The news could be pumping it up all to be nothing but gunpowder in those thousands of boxes. ...I hate it when the news screws up a story like that.

Ayup.

Personally, I wouldn't mind an enforced 48hr delay on most news coming out of Iraq. Let the 'journalists' find some corraborating evidence first.

 

[exp]

I'm growing tired of all these rumors and false alarms. Somebody wake me when there is definitive proof--a warehouse/bunker full of WMDs, a confirmed production facility, actual use of WMDs against coalition forces, etc. Protective gear and chemical traces in the soil/water don't do much for me.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
they were not given enough time..... surely the 12th time they went there they would have found them...

Exactly.

Hans Blix was running around like a chicken with his head cutoff - brainless with no idea where he was going. He would never have found a thing.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: rickn
the french and russians, and any country not in the coalition will be in denial. they'll say the coalition planted it

what, you mean like how the us denies everything bad that is said about them? so let me get this straight...it's ok for the states to have wmd, but noone else can have them? hmmm....ok there. reminds me of the land mine issue. oh and kyoto. oh and the third world countries that are basically slave labour for american consumers. ok rant over.

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: rickn
the french and russians, and any country not in the coalition will be in denial. they'll say the coalition planted it

what, you mean like how the us denies everything bad that is said about them? so let me get this straight...it's ok for the states to have wmd, but noone else can have them? hmmm....ok there. reminds me of the land mine issue. oh and kyoto. oh and the third world countries that are basically slave labour for american consumers. ok rant over.

It's called non-proliferation.

 

[SickBeast]

if the us cares so much about non-proliferation, why don't they destroy all of their wmd?

and speaking of proliferation, what was the only country to ever deploy nuclear weapons against humans? that doesn't include all of the radiation spewed out by nuclear tests, either.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

and speaking of proliferation, what was the only country to ever deploy nuclear weapons against humans? that doesn't include all of the radiation spewed out by nuclear tests, either.

I suppose you'd rather have risked a land invasion of Japan and put hundreds of thousands of Allied troops in coffins, along with equal or greater numbers of Japanese troops and civilians?

 

[SickBeast]

honestly, noone knows what would have happened if the bombs hadn't been dropped. it's complete speculation. i'm just making the point that america is hypocritical to be stating that they are against the proliferation of wmd until they get rid of theirs. and what's up with the land mine issue? and kyoto? don't american politicians realize that they are citizens of the world?

oh, and let me throw this scenario at you: japan attacked the us first right? then the us eventually responded with the nukes. so would it be justifiable for iraq to unlease it's wmd to prevent a ground war and widespread death? i know this arguement doesn't work because both sides have wmd, but hopefully you can see what i'm getting at.

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
if the us cares so much about non-proliferation, why don't they destroy all of their wmd?

and speaking of proliferation, what was the only country to ever deploy nuclear weapons against humans? that doesn't include all of the radiation spewed out by nuclear tests, either.

pro·lif·er·ate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-lf-rt)
v. pro·lif·er·at·ed, pro·lif·er·at·ing, pro·lif·er·ates
v. intr.
To grow or multiply by rapidly producing new tissue, parts, cells, or offspring.
To increase or spread at a rapid rate: fears that nuclear weapons might proliferate.

Link

Find me a link proving the US has sold WMD to other nations. Not speculation, whispers, or rumors....find me hard evidence that shows the US is supplying WMD to other countries.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
honestly, noone knows what would have happened if the bombs hadn't been dropped. it's complete speculation. i'm just making the point that america is hypocritical to be stating that they are against the proliferation of wmd until they get rid of theirs. and what's up with the land mine issue? and kyoto? don't american politicians realize that they are citizens of the world?

Who is noone? Oh...no one...sorry. I was trying to think of someone named Noone from the mid 40s. And, yes, it's speculation but there were many educated estimates made and a number of around 250,000 troops killed. And that's just the American total! Add in Japanese troops and civilians and the total would most likely have exceeded 1,000,000 dead.

As for Kyoto, this and this may show that it's not quite dead yet.

Land mine issue? Not aware of any. Talking about the work Princess Di was working on? Don't see any relevance to that here.

EDIT: Response to your edit.

Sounds like you are implying you'd like to see Saddam use WDM just because the U.S. did in '45. Just because it was done in the past doesn't mean it should be done again. Esp. by a madman like Saddam. The U.S. used atomic bombs to bring about an end to the war with Japan (and side benefits of showing the Soviet Union the power the U.S. military possessed) that saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

Oh, and in both cases, each side (Japan and Iraq) had or have one incredibly grand option...surrender. If Saddam wants to avoid large casualties, all he has to do is surrender....unconditionally.

 

[SickBeast]

Land mine issue? Not aware of any. Talking about the work Princess Di was working on? Don't see any relevance to that here.

As far as I know, there was a UN resolution (or a treaty of sorts) that 95% of the world signed stating that they would destroy all of their land mines andd never use them again. The US refused to sign. I'm just pointing out that there are reasons why there is alot of negative sentiment towards Americans. I just glanced over the article that you posted, and it didn't look very encouraging as far as kyoto goes. I don't know how your political system works there tho. If your senate is controlled by the democrats, then I see the possibility of kyoto being signed. It's a shame about Clinton, I had alot of respect for him until the whole controversy.

Anyhow this is getting waaaaay off topic.

I was just irked by the comments about "any country that isn't part of the coalition". I'm proud to live in a place where we aren't part of the coalition. The blood of the innocent people killed in this war is not on my hands.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Land mine issue? Not aware of any. Talking about the work Princess Di was working on? Don't see any relevance to that here.

As far as I know, there was a UN resolution (or a treaty of sorts) that 95% of the world signed stating that they would destroy all of their land mines andd never use them again. The US refused to sign. I'm just pointing out that there are reasons why there is alot of negative sentiment towards Americans. I just glanced over the article that you posted, and it didn't look very encouraging as far as kyoto goes. I don't know how your political system works there tho. If your senate is controlled by the democrats, then I see the possibility of kyoto being signed. It's a shame about Clinton, I had alot of respect for him until the whole controversy.

Anyhow this is getting waaaaay off topic.

Yes...but thanks...I'll have to look into that one.

I was just irked by the comments about "any country that isn't part of the coalition". I'm proud to live in a place where we aren't part of the coalition. The blood of the innocent people killed in this war is not on my hands.

Not on mine either. It's all on Saddam's and his thugs'.

 

[Alistar7]

Land mines used responsibly are not a hazard. Those that use them irresponsibly will not follow the law. Just like law abiding gun onwers won't use a firearm in a criminal manner, and criminals will not abide by the law.

How many civilian deaths attributed to American mines annualy?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: exp
I'm growing tired of all these rumors and false alarms. Somebody wake me when there is definitive proof--a warehouse/bunker full of WMDs, a confirmed production facility, actual use of WMDs against coalition forces, etc. Protective gear and chemical traces in the soil/water don't do much for me.

I say everyone will be wide awake when Saddam actually uses them in Baghdad . . . I don't think we will find any "quantity" until then (unfortunately).

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: exp
I'm growing tired of all these rumors and false alarms. Somebody wake me when there is definitive proof--a warehouse/bunker full of WMDs, a confirmed production facility, actual use of WMDs against coalition forces, etc. Protective gear and chemical traces in the soil/water don't do much for me.

measurable and scientifically verifiable evidence is definitive proof, no matter how small.
I found the manual on how to wage chemical warfare more indicative than the suits themselves, which could be used in a defensive manner.

From what was reported, there is more than "traces" in the Euphrates, plenty enough cyanide for everyone, get your Saddam Super Berry Kool Aid....

 

[Chadder007]

Where did this story go?...its like they pulled it off from the front pages anywhere.

 

[HappyGamer2]

yep, did saddams boys have this or did his enemy the kurds have it?
most kurds hate saddam.
I don't know what to think of this, like what others have said best to hold off, this maybe no smoking gun at all

 

[Alistar7]

Pretty sure the Kurds have had their share of cyanide... maybe that's where it comes from, his massacre, how appropriate that would be.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Chadder007
Where did this story go?...its like they pulled it off from the front pages anywhere.

Do a google search with this cyanide euphrates

First possible link is to ABC Online, unfortunately that goes to their front page, which has changed, but it still shows the story line in the link. I had heard this via a radio broadcast, the implication was significantly more than trace amounts. If this is true I'm sure it will come out though.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: Chadder007
Where did this story go?...its like they pulled it off from the front pages anywhere.

Do a google search with this cyanide euphrates

First possible link is to ABC Online, unfortunately that goes to their front page, which has changed, but it still shows the story line in the link. I had heard this via a radio broadcast, the implication was significantly more than trace amounts. If this is true I'm sure it will come out though.

Still here

Positive test for terror toxins in Iraq

Evidence of ricin, botulinum at Islamic militants? camp

EXCLUSIVE
By Preston Mendenhall
MSNBC

SARGAT, Iraq, April 4 ? Preliminary tests conducted by MSNBC.com indicate that the deadly toxins ricin and botulinum were present on two items found at a camp in a remote mountain region of northern Iraq allegedly used as a terrorist training center by Islamic militants with ties to the al-Qaida terrorist network. The field tests used by MSNBC.com are only a first step in the evidentiary process and are typically followed by more precise laboratory testing that MSNBC.com has not conducted. U.S. intelligence agents were conducting their own tests in the same area and had not yet released their results, according to officials in northern Iraq. MSNBC.COM CONDUCTED the tests over a two-day period at Sargat, an alleged terrorist training camp a mile from the Iraq-Iran border. MSNBC.com purchased the test kits commercially. The field tests, developed by Osborn Scientific Group in Lakeside, Ariz., are regarded by some experts as very effective and have been used by U.N. weapons inspectors and federal government agents around the Sept. 11, 2001, attack site in New York City.
The Sargat camp, set back in an isolated valley and surrounded by snow-capped peaks, was home to the radical Islamic militant group Ansar al-Islam, which counts among its some 700 followers scores of al-Qaida fighters.
In a Feb. 5 speech to the U.N. Security Council, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell showed a satellite photo of the Sargat camp and described Ansar al-Islam as ?teaching its operatives how to produce ricin and other poisons.? U.S. officials have repeated the allegations in recent weeks.
In an operation timed to coincide with the war on Iraq, U.S. special operations forces have targeted Ansar al-Islam?s militants in northern Iraq. Hundreds of Islamists, including al-Qaida fighters who took refuge in northern Iraq after the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan, have been killed.
Although U.S. officials for months have leveled charges that the Ansar al-Islam and al-Qaida militants were producing poisons in northern Iraq, it wasn?t until this week that specialist U.S. teams were able to gain access to the Sargat camp to test for traces of biological and chemical weapons.
Experts believe the Islamic group was producing the substances in the camp. Both toxins can be created from everyday products and simple procedures.

TERRORISTS TEMPTED BY TOXINS
MSNBC.com?s samples of ricin and botulinum, two deadly biological agents, were taken from the soles of a boot and a shoe recovered from the Sargat camp. The facility has been flattened by several Tomahawk cruise missiles, fired as part of the U.S. campaign against Ansar al-Islam.
The thick rubber boot twice tested positive for ricin, a toxin derived from castor beans. Ingesting a pinch of ricin, which causes shock and respiratory failure, can kill a human being within 72 hours. There is no cure.
A black running shoe, shredded by the U.S. bombing, tested positive for botulinum. U.S. officials say terrorists have a particular interest in botulinum and ricin toxins, which may be delivered through release in food and water. Botulism, the illness resulting from botulinum ingestion, is a muscle-paralyzing disease that can cause a person to stop breathing and die, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control.

U.S. intelligence says the Sargat camp, shown here in a satellite photo taken before its destruction, was a "terrorist poison and explosives factory."


Since Sept. 11, 2001, law enforcement officials have seen an increase in attempts to produce deadly toxins like ricin and botulinum.
In Britain, anti-terrorism authorities in January charged four men with producing deadly agents after they found traces of ricin in a north London apartment. More than a dozen arrests have been made in the investigation.

On Thursday, the FBI issued a warning to Americans that deadly agents such as ricin and botulinum could be used to contaminate the nation?s water or food supply.
And in France, police are on alert after recently finding traces of ricin in flasks in a train station locker in Paris.
The territory of northern Iraq where the traces of ricin were detected is not under the control of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.
Baghdad admitted to U.N. weapons inspectors in the 1990s that it had successfully weaponized ricin, botulinum and anthrax. There is no immediate evidence that suggests Saddam?s regime provided the easily produced toxins to Ansar al-Islam or al-Qaida.
A test for anthrax at the Sargat camp gave a negative result.
WIDELY USED TEST
The Osborne tests are widely admired by experts, according to Dr. Sue Bailey, an NBC News analyst and former assistant secretary of defense for health issues during the Clinton administration. Known as ?BioWarfare Agent Detection Devices,? they were used by U.N. weapons inspectors in Iraq before their departure ahead of the U.S.-led war against Saddam.
Dr. Robert Bohannon, the inventor of the test, said in a telephone interview that numerous U.S. federal agencies employ the tests in the field. He said the tests were developed to give a rapid ?yes-no? result in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks on New York and Washington, when several U.S. federal agencies realized they required effective and rapid field tests to detect chemical and biological agents possibly used by terrorists.
?To swab a boot is perfectly acceptable,? Bohannon said. The Osborn Scientific Group?s test is widely used by federal agencies as a first step in the ?evidentiary chain,? Bohannon said. ?It will tell you very, very fast if it?s got a credible amount of material.?
Bohannon, a former U.S. military scientist at the Dugway Proving Ground in Utah, said government experts would likely also subject their samples to a gas chromatography mass spectrometer, an apparatus that gives a breakdown of the elements and composition of the sample. The GCMS is also used to analyze urine samples for the presence of drugs.
In recent days, specialist chemical-biological survey teams have collected samples from camps used by Islamic militants in northern Iraq. At least two teams visited the Sargat camp, taking similar rapid field tests and collecting samples to be sent to the United States for further analysis, according to U.S. special operations forces officers speaking on condition of anonymity in northern Iraq.
U.S. special operations forces officials said this week they had found recipes for ricin and other toxins at camps in northern Iraq.
In several visits to the Sargat camp, MSNBC.com uncovered material that could be used for terrorist purposes, including a list of chemical elements frequently found in explosives.
The list, written in Arabic, also includes notations on where chemicals such as nitric acid, which can be used to make components of the explosive Semtex, can commonly be found.

MSNBC.com?s Preston Mendenhall is on assignment in northern Iraq. Greg Mathieson contributed to this report.

 

[Alistar7]

Good article, read it already, but thats not the right one.

This is in regards to the Euphrates close to Baghdad.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
Good article, read it already, but thats not the right one.

This is in regards to the Euphrates close to Baghdad.

U.S. finds 'suspicious' chemical cache

is linked from this MSNBC article I posted but the link is broken . . . I guess we need to wait for confirmation - one way or another.

 

[Tab]

I DEMAND TO FIND OUT IF IRAQ TROOPS WHERE GUARDING IT!

 

[HappyGamer2]

so what's the latest, just don't hear much now
another un smoking gun?
the news is crazy too, don't know what to believe anymore