Smoking Brakes?

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

If your brakes are smoking, you have chosen the wrong pads and are operating unsafely. You are right on the ragged edge of brake failure and are playing russian roulette with your safety. If that's acceptable and "normal" in your little world, so be it.

ZV

I really hope people are listening to this. There is little warning when your brakes go out/overheat...just imagine you have brakes one moment, then the next you don't. Russian roulette with your safety is a very good way of putting it.

 

[LTC8K6]

You can't see the brake fluid boiling, either...

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
You can't see the brake fluid boiling, either...

Yeah, I think my incident I actually had boiling brake fluid. Pedal went straight to the floor with no stopping power. This was after a some "spirited driving" involving very heavy threshold braking.

-edit-
I remember it now. After the incident I popped my hood. The brake reservoir was a rolling boil like a little tea kettle.

 

[thomsbrain]

I'm siding with Z and spidey on this. By the time the brakes are smoking, you're already experiencing pretty significant brake fade. It will get worse fast unless they have time to cool, and if you start boiling the brake fluid then you're in real trouble. You're out there to have fun, but it will NOT be fun when the pedal hits the floor. So give it some time to cool down, take a piss on a tree, check out the view, and then go back to having fun once things are working properly again.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: jRaskell

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
It's a useful technique that is most certainly recommended in the appropriate circumstances regardless of driving style.

ZV

So, to be perfectly clear, you're in complete agreement with what LTC8K6 wrote with regards to the OPs scenario?

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
On hills, you engine brake somewhat differently. You get in the lower gear at the top of the hill, so that you never get going too fast. You don't wait until you need to slow down.

The idea is to control your speed in the first place. You might stay in third gear all the way down the hill, for example.

Engine braking is very effective on hills in preventing you from going too fast and overheating your brakes.

How would my disagreeing with that (which is good advice, albeit not necessarily "spirited") alter the fact that engine braking remains a correct choice in the OP's situation?

While engine braking may not slow the car down on its own, the indisputable fact is that it does provide resistance and absolutely does reduce the load on the brakes. When driving in a spirited manner down a steep hill/mountain the correct method would be to stay in a low gear (let's face it, if you're above 3rd gear, you're well past merely illegal speeds and into immediate arrest and impound territory) and downshift when possible combined with using the brakes.

What LTC8K6 said is proper advice for any public road, but it does not in any way encompass the entire realm of engine braking. It's simply one example of an application.

What I said before still stands. You're wrong, and no amount of attempting to weasel out of it will change that fact.

ZV

 

[jRaskell]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
What I said before still stands. You're wrong, and no amount of attempting to weasel out of it will change that fact.

ZV

I am only wrong when my comments are taken out of context.

I said engine braking was pointless. That comment was made in response to a post that was recommending engine braking to the OP apparently as a means to prevent the brake smoking that occurred as a result of his spirited driving.

I do not believe for one second that, if the OP had done everything he could to maximize his engine braking, and changed nothing else about the way he drove, that his brakes would not have smoked. There are only two options available to him to prevent that in the future. 1, stop driving that aggressively. Or 2, upgrade the brakes. Engine braking would NOT have significantly changed the outcome of that situation, and as such it was pointless to recommend it.

Of course, I originally thought it was adequate to just post a single line to that affect, as opposed to several paragraphs, but clearly that is one thing I was in fact wrong about.

I then attempted to make a less generic statement that engine braking was not a necessity in spirited driving. By your own words:

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
It's a useful technique that is most certainly recommended in the appropriate circumstances regardless of driving style.

ZV

If it's a technique that is only a recommendation, and only in the appropriate circumstances, then it is also clearly NOT a necessity. If it was a necessity, it would be required.

 

[LTC8K6]

Someone or something is seriously wrong here.

Engine braking provided a significant braking effect in every car I have ever driven.

It will definitely prevent what happened to the OP as far as I am concerned and I am frankly quite mystified that anyone would say otherwise.

Going down through the gears slows the car dramatically, even with an automatic.

Staying in a lower gear prevents the speed build up in the first place.

Not sure where the idea that it's ineffective is coming from, but I think I am done discussing the issue.

Drive however you want, I'll just get out of your way, if you give me a second.

 

[jRaskell]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Someone or something is seriously wrong here.

Engine braking provided a significant braking effect in every car I have ever driven.

It will definitely prevent what happened to the OP as far as I am concerned and I am frankly quite mystified that anyone would say otherwise.

Going down through the gears slows the car dramatically, even with an automatic.

Staying in a lower gear prevents the speed build up in the first place.

Not sure where the idea that it's ineffective is coming from, but I think I am done discussing the issue.

Drive however you want, I'll just get out of your way, if you give me a second.

Significant, eh?

Significant in my book is being capable of stopping from 60-0 in less than 120ft, with street tires. Less than 100ft with competition tires.

I've never actually tried it, but I don't see the average street car stopping from 60-0, with ONLY engine braking, in any less than 500-600 feet, possibly even greater than that. That doesn't even remotely qualify as significant.

 

[LTC8K6]

Significant, eh?

Significant in my book is being capable of stopping from 60-0 in less than 120ft, with street tires. Less than 100ft with competition tires.

I've never actually tried it, but I don't see the average street car stopping from 60-0, with ONLY engine braking, in any less than 500-600 feet, possibly even greater than that. That doesn't even remotely qualify as significant.

How did you get there? How did you manage to connect that to the subject of engine braking coming down hills? Who the F said anything about engine braking being able to stop your car quickly?

Come back, please.

Never mind, really.

Do what you want, it's your car.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: jRaskell

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
What I said before still stands. You're wrong, and no amount of attempting to weasel out of it will change that fact.

ZV

I am only wrong when my comments are taken out of context.

I said engine braking was pointless. That comment was made in response to a post that was recommending engine braking to the OP apparently as a means to prevent the brake smoking that occurred as a result of his spirited driving.

I do not believe for one second that, if the OP had done everything he could to maximize his engine braking, and changed nothing else about the way he drove, that his brakes would not have smoked. There are only two options available to him to prevent that in the future. 1, stop driving that aggressively. Or 2, upgrade the brakes. Engine braking would NOT have significantly changed the outcome of that situation, and as such it was pointless to recommend it.

Of course, I originally thought it was adequate to just post a single line to that affect, as opposed to several paragraphs, but clearly that is one thing I was in fact wrong about.

Let's follow the absolute statements you made through the thread, shall we?

If he was braking hard enough to overheat his brakes, then any amount of engine braking would have been trivial.

Wrong, as light but continuous braking causes more heat buildup than a few panic stops. Engine braking would have negated the need to use continuous pedal pressure.

Engine braking really only applies to light braking scenarios.

Wrong. Engine braking should always be combined with regular braking in heavy deceleration scenarios.

When driving fast and aggressively, engine braking is pointless.

Wrong. See my illustrations about racing.

In spirited driving, engine braking is NOT a necessity and was not even being recommended within the context of spirited driving.

Wrong. Engine braking is recommended in the context of spirited driving.

The fact remains that you made a lot of absolute statements that were inaccurate. I assumed that if those statements were intended to be limited in scope, you would be intelligent enough to state that fact. Instead, you consistently stated your position in terms of absolutes and utterly failed to indicate that your positions were, in fact, qualified. This seems to apply here.

Originally posted by: jRaskell
I then attempted to make a less generic statement that engine braking was not a necessity in spirited driving.

You also said that it was not recommended, thereby clearly implying that it should not be used. (In conversational English, to say that something is not recommended is to discourage it. You may want to note that for the future as you seem unclear on that point.)

Originally posted by: jRaskell
By your own words:

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
It's a useful technique that is most certainly recommended in the appropriate circumstances regardless of driving style.

ZV

If it's a technique that is only a recommendation, and only in the appropriate circumstances, then it is also clearly NOT a necessity. If it was a necessity, it would be required.

I was responding to your claim that, "In spirited driving, engine braking is NOT a necessity and was not even being recommended within the context of spirited driving." Certainly it is not a necessity, but it is absolutely recommended. This is the same way that rev-matching is not a necessity, but remains recommended.

In any case, an intelligent, objective observer can easily tell which of us knows what he's talking about and which of us is still wet behind the ears. That's enough for me, I'm bored of you now.

ZV

 

[RedArmy]

Originally posted by: jRaskell

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Someone or something is seriously wrong here.

Engine braking provided a significant braking effect in every car I have ever driven.

It will definitely prevent what happened to the OP as far as I am concerned and I am frankly quite mystified that anyone would say otherwise.

Going down through the gears slows the car dramatically, even with an automatic.

Staying in a lower gear prevents the speed build up in the first place.

Not sure where the idea that it's ineffective is coming from, but I think I am done discussing the issue.

Drive however you want, I'll just get out of your way, if you give me a second.

Significant, eh?

Significant in my book is being capable of stopping from 60-0 in less than 120ft, with street tires. Less than 100ft with competition tires.

I've never actually tried it, but I don't see the average street car stopping from 60-0, with ONLY engine braking, in any less than 500-600 feet, possibly even greater than that. That doesn't even remotely qualify as significant.

No one is agreeing with you, and now your coming up with examples that back your side of the argument. Just give it a rest already, this thread should've ended on the first page.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Probably brakes, but if they were hot enough to smoke they should have smelled bad. I've had semi-seized rotors twice creating smoking brakes and the second time at least, when I looked closer, the rotor was red

Why is it every time I see a post that uses the word "brakes" I instinctively look to see if it is you posting?

 

[finite automaton]

You may also want to inspect your pads, you may have cracked them.

 

[finite automaton]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: jRaskell

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
What I said before still stands. You're wrong, and no amount of attempting to weasel out of it will change that fact.

ZV

I am only wrong when my comments are taken out of context.

I said engine braking was pointless. That comment was made in response to a post that was recommending engine braking to the OP apparently as a means to prevent the brake smoking that occurred as a result of his spirited driving.

I do not believe for one second that, if the OP had done everything he could to maximize his engine braking, and changed nothing else about the way he drove, that his brakes would not have smoked. There are only two options available to him to prevent that in the future. 1, stop driving that aggressively. Or 2, upgrade the brakes. Engine braking would NOT have significantly changed the outcome of that situation, and as such it was pointless to recommend it.

Of course, I originally thought it was adequate to just post a single line to that affect, as opposed to several paragraphs, but clearly that is one thing I was in fact wrong about.

Owned
ZV

I was going to come flame this guy, but it looks like ZV took care of it for me. I engine brake all the time with my 5-speed and it makes a hellufa difference. A week or so ago my U-Joints started to vibrate bad so I stopped doing it until I could get them replaced (engine braking made the vibrations worse). It amazed me how much more force I had to use on the brake pedal.

 

[LTC8K6]

Besides, the sound is wonderful...

 

[LTC8K6]

Snippets from one of my owner's manuals:

The automatic transmission may downshift on hills to
maintain the vehicle set speed.

NOTE: To select the proper gear position for maximum
deceleration (engine braking), move the shift lever to the
left ?D(-)? and hold it there. The transmission will shift to
the range from which the vehicle can best be slowed
down.

If you stall or begin to lose forward motion while
climbing a steep hill, allow your vehicle to come to a stop
and immediately apply the brakes. Restart the engine
and shift to R (Reverse). Back slowly down the hill
allowing the compression braking of the engine to help
regulate your speed. If the brakes are required to control
vehicle speed, apply them lightly and avoid locking or
skidding the tires.

Traction Downhill
Shift the transmission into a low gear and the transfer
case to 4WD LOW range. Let the vehicle go slowly down
the hill with all four wheels turning against engine
compression drag. This will permit you to control the
vehicle speed and direction.

When descending mountains or hills, repeated braking
can cause brake fade with loss of braking control. Avoid
repeated heavy braking by downshifting the transmission
whenever possible.

 

[helpme]

Don't drag brakes on downhills. As previously mentioned, it generates more heat.

If you continue to have this sort of problem while driving on the street...

You could use some of this: http://www.tirerack.com/brakes...te_superblue_fluid.jsp

And some of these: http://www.hawkperformance.com/performance/hps.php (or equiv)

If those don't do it for you... try the HP+ (or equiv)

If those don't... try the blues or HT-10s... Just not on the street with me in front of you

 

[LOUISSSSS]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS
i still think smoke coming from your brakes are normal when doing heavy heavy braking.

that is similar to saying there is a loud rumble coming coming from my exhaust and engine when i floor the accelerator. The rumble may not be normal for normal driving, but it is normal when you accelerate hard. just a simple example.

Example fail.

Once again, brakes only smoke when you exceed the maximum allowable pad temperature. It's only "normal" for brakes to smoke in the sense that it's "normal" to have oil showing up in your coolant. Both are the "normal" indication that something has gone wrong.

If your brakes are smoking, you have chosen the wrong pads and are operating unsafely. You are right on the ragged edge of brake failure and are playing russian roulette with your safety. If that's acceptable and "normal" in your little world, so be it.

ZV

when you overclock your PC, and your room temps get a few degrees warmer than other rooms in the house, is that out of the "norm"? I know for a fact that my room can be at least 2 degrees warmer than my neighboring room, just because i have so much heat dumping out of my computer case. If you're going to argue that overclocking my computer is "out of the norm" then you're registered for the wrong forum; this is anandtech =)

now, back to brakes. if your brakes get hot and excess heat from friction is created from the pads squeezing against rotors, that just means the driver was pushing the pads hard; which he was.

 

[helpme]

I think you missed his point. The pads in this case were no longer in the "pushing the limit" category, they were "over the limit". Once you step over the limit, failure is possible.

Brake pads are designed to be used within certain temperature ranges. If you exceed the range that they are designed for, then they will begin to smoke, and eventually crumble apart!

This is why drivers who drive on the track will use approprate brake pads based on the temps generated by their braking system.

Exceeding the limit examples:

Brake example:

Normal use: No effect on brakes

Hard use: Limited brake "smell" - possible fade and glazing if too close to the upper temp range limit

Overuse of brakes: Smoking and eventually pad failure

To take your overclocking example:

E6600 with stock heatsink

Normal use: Vcore @ 1.3v - no damage

Overclocking: Vcore @ 1.5v - Possible long term effects

Over-Overclocking: Vcore @ 2.5v - likely chip damage

If the chip didn't have a thermal shutdown mode, and it was running, it would probably fail not long after running at 2.5v if it ran at all. Brake pads thermally shut down by not working for you at all

 

[LOUISSSSS]

Originally posted by: helpme
I think you missed his point. The pads in this case were no longer in the "pushing the limit" category, they were "over the limit". Once you step over the limit, failure is possible.

Brake pads are designed to be used within certain temperature ranges. If you exceed the range that they are designed for, then they will begin to smoke, and eventually crumble apart!

This is why drivers who drive on the track will use approprate brake pads based on the temps generated by their braking system.

Exceeding the limit examples:

Brake example:

Normal use: No effect on brakes

Hard use: Limited brake "smell" - possible fade and glazing if too close to the upper temp range limit

Overuse of brakes: Smoking and eventually pad failure

To take your overclocking example:

E6600 with stock heatsink

Normal use: Vcore @ 1.3v - no damage

Overclocking: Vcore @ 1.5v - Possible long term effects

Over-Overclocking: Vcore @ 2.5v - likely chip damage

If the chip didn't have a thermal shutdown mode, and it was running, it would probably fail not long after running at 2.5v if it ran at all. Brake pads thermally shut down by not working for you at all

i'm aware that you can go over the edge with anything, but apparently, the OP DIDN'T. He successfully came to a stop, he didn't crash, he did not say his brakes faded to the limit where he didn't slow down at all. His brakes obviously worked within the overclocking limit and successfully put his car to a complete stop. That is what brakes do. and that's is how they work in my opinion.

 

[Kirby]

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS
i still think smoke coming from your brakes are normal when doing heavy heavy braking.

that is similar to saying there is a loud rumble coming coming from my exhaust and engine when i floor the accelerator. The rumble may not be normal for normal driving, but it is normal when you accelerate hard. just a simple example.

Example fail.

Once again, brakes only smoke when you exceed the maximum allowable pad temperature. It's only "normal" for brakes to smoke in the sense that it's "normal" to have oil showing up in your coolant. Both are the "normal" indication that something has gone wrong.

If your brakes are smoking, you have chosen the wrong pads and are operating unsafely. You are right on the ragged edge of brake failure and are playing russian roulette with your safety. If that's acceptable and "normal" in your little world, so be it.

ZV

when you overclock your PC, and your room temps get a few degrees warmer than other rooms in the house, is that out of the "norm"? I know for a fact that my room can be at least 2 degrees warmer than my neighboring room, just because i have so much heat dumping out of my computer case. If you're going to argue that overclocking my computer is "out of the norm" then you're registered for the wrong forum; this is anandtech =)

now, back to brakes. if your brakes get hot and excess heat from friction is created from the pads squeezing against rotors, that just means the driver was pushing the pads hard; which he was.

Sweet Mary mother of Jesus. :shocked:

Did you really just compare OC to braking?

If you going to use it as example, he was at the point were he was getting BSoDs. The next stage is when your PC erupts into flames and burns your dick off because your undies are around your ankles.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS
when you overclock your PC, and your room temps get a few degrees warmer than other rooms in the house, is that out of the "norm"? I know for a fact that my room can be at least 2 degrees warmer than my neighboring room, just because i have so much heat dumping out of my computer case. If you're going to argue that overclocking my computer is "out of the norm" then you're registered for the wrong forum; this is anandtech =)

now, back to brakes. if your brakes get hot and excess heat from friction is created from the pads squeezing against rotors, that just means the driver was pushing the pads hard; which he was.

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. What is this? Some sort of attempt at getting into the Guinness Book of Records for the largest number of asinine analogies posted by a single user in an automotive thread?

Seriously, please, for your own safety and the safety of everyone else on the road, never, ever, under any circumstances attempt to perform any maintenance whatsoever on an automobile. In your case, I'd even recommend that you use full-service gas stations.

ZV

 

[zoiks]

You have to admit, this thread is entertaining

 

[sdifox]

lol, if only cars were as well built as CPUs.

 

[LOUISSSSS]

well, lets stop with the analogies then, the guy in the OP obviously slammed on his brakes. then, he came to a complete stop. As you stated, brakes only work within temperature specs right? Did the brakes work? yes, they did work in stopping the car. hence, the smoke from the brakes were coming from the working brakes.