Smallest chassis including PS/RAM/2HD/CPU/MB?

[p0lar]

Not being much of a server/workstation kind of person, I'm going out on a limb here to ask for some help.

I consult for a relatively medium-sized network whose owner is building a special cluster of several thousand nodes. Space and power considerations are at a premium and based on his specs, he has labbed and determined that the C2D and C2Q CPUs, 1G of RAM, and a single SATA-2 HD (with room to add a second) meets his needs best.

He asked me if I knew any case/PSU manufacturers that could accomodate that were the absolute minimum for space requirements. Not being an expert in such affairs, I am turning to AT for recommendations and possibly even quotes if someone here is a vendor. Since he'll be buying these things by the dozens to start, price is somewhat of an issue from what I understand.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions/recommendations, space is of the essence!

Edit: Mods, is this better served in the Cases & Cooling category?

 

[heymrdj]

Wouldn't he be better off with just using racks? That or going to people like IBM and getting Blade servers. Storage apparently isn't an issue, only power. So 1u servers, loaded to those extremely simple specs, should do quite nicely. Being able to put them about 40 high in a 48u rack (judging on how much other equipment like switches, power cleaners, and APC units you need) is an excellent space saver while still delivering adequate cooling and therefore good reliability and longevity. The blades are nice as well, however on larger rollouts, such as Quad Opty sets, I find blades get too hot and kill on lifespan a bit. But that's just me.

 

[p0lar]

They will be in open-frame, shelved racks -- 1U RM servers and blade servers cannot achieve the price/performance and performance/density ratios necessary to make the project work feasibly under the constraints imposed by the leading architect (or the margins are entirely too narrow), unfortunately; otherwise, it would be a relatively simple choice. It really won't matter if one or two, or several dozen of these things fail as long as they are uniform and easy to replace.

P.S. the leading architect cannot be substituted either.

 

[Fraggable]

So you're saying that 1U boxes with C2Q CPUs in them don't provide the performance/density you need? I'm afraid any other style case, such as a SFF case, is going to be a whole lot bigger and have a lot of wasted space. When you're talking about thousands of nodes, anything other than rackmount boxes is just going to be impractical at best.

I don't even know what I'd say if you can't do 1U boxes, maybe the Aspire XQPack2? Good luck finding those in quantities of thousands though.

 

[p0lar]

Originally posted by: Fraggable
So you're saying that 1U boxes with C2Q CPUs in them don't provide the performance/density you need? I'm afraid any other style case, such as a SFF case, is going to be a whole lot bigger and have a lot of wasted space. When you're talking about thousands of nodes, anything other than rackmount boxes is just going to be impractical at best.

I don't even know what I'd say if you can't do 1U boxes, maybe the Aspire XQPack2? Good luck finding those in quantities of thousands though.

This reply really doesn't dignify a response other than that to ask other more serious contributors for their thoughts. Honestly, even Dell produced a SFF Optiplex that was significantly smaller than the density offered by their 1U rack-mount-based systems.

Fraggable, I'll politely request that you opine in a separate thread about the merits of 1U rackmount servers over any other form factor as it has been stated that they will clearly not meet the needs of this project.

 

[heymrdj]

SFF is good, but they overheat. The SFF's my school has a few hundred have low wattage craptastic intel CPU's in them. SLow as molasses and little flame torches. You may get the density, but unless you throw them in a room with some darn good artic forced air flow cooling, they won't have the durability to run 24/7 day and night under hard labor. The Dell one's my school has use a single 60mm fan to move air. The air scalds your hand literally when it comes out. Proc idles at near 50C.

 

[Fraggable]

Originally posted by: p0lar

Originally posted by: Fraggable
So you're saying that 1U boxes with C2Q CPUs in them don't provide the performance/density you need? I'm afraid any other style case, such as a SFF case, is going to be a whole lot bigger and have a lot of wasted space. When you're talking about thousands of nodes, anything other than rackmount boxes is just going to be impractical at best.

I don't even know what I'd say if you can't do 1U boxes, maybe the Aspire XQPack2? Good luck finding those in quantities of thousands though.

This reply really doesn't dignify a response other than that to ask other more serious contributors for their thoughts. Honestly, even Dell produced a SFF Optiplex that was significantly smaller than the density offered by their 1U rack-mount-based systems.

Fraggable, I'll politely request that you opine in a separate thread about the merits of 1U rackmount servers over any other form factor as it has been stated that they will clearly not meet the needs of this project.

you're a complete <comment removed>. I was trying to help and I do know what I'm talking about. I have 2 1U rackmounts sitting right here next to me, as well as a Optiplex G240, one of the smaller ones you're talking about. I know the Optiplex is smaller than the 1U case, but can you put a 4-socket motherboard in an Optiplex case?

Forget you, I don't know why anyone would venture to help out when you're just going to tear them up for saying 1 tiny thing wrong.



No need for that even if the OP was asking for it.
AnandTech Senior Moderator: oldsmoboat

 

[p0lar]

Originally posted by: Fraggable
you're a complete d*******g. I was trying to help and I do know what I'm talking about. I have 2 1U rackmounts sitting right here next to me, as well as a Optiplex G240, one of the smaller ones you're talking about. I know the Optiplex is smaller than the 1U case, but can you put a 4-socket motherboard in an Optiplex case?

Forget you, I don't know why anyone would venture to help out when you're just going to tear them up for saying 1 tiny thing wrong.

Moderator, please remove the offending juvenile posts. This is hardly a contribution representative of the AT community as a whole.

 

[p0lar]

Originally posted by: heymrdj
SFF is good, but they overheat. The SFF's my school has a few hundred have low wattage craptastic intel CPU's in them. SLow as molasses and little flame torches. You may get the density, but unless you throw them in a room with some darn good artic forced air flow cooling, they won't have the durability to run 24/7 day and night under hard labor. The Dell one's my school has use a single 60mm fan to move air. The air scalds your hand literally when it comes out. Proc idles at near 50C.

Actually, it's in a special co-location facility that is dedicated to the task. Once again, this isn't my project to question the specs that have been decided upon. My responsibility extends as far as the network, and I am more than adequately qualified to cover that segment of it.

Would you care to discuss the merits of craptastic intel CPU's in another thread? I'll probably chime in with my $0.02 as well. Why is this difficult to comprehend?

 

[TheStu]

p0lar, do you mind not being a uptight weenie for 5 seconds?

Anyway, it appears to me that heymrdj said is worthy of consideration. If you look just before the 'craptastic Intel' bit that got your panties in a bunch, you will see that he mentions low-wattage, something traditionally associated with low-heat as well.

So, if he is saying that low-wattage intel chips (which are by the way, the brand of processor that you are looking for) tend to overheat in the SFF case, you may want to open up your eyes and read that. You are talking about C2Ds and C2Qs, not exactly the lowest heat producing chips out there.

It is possible that those particular systems did not have adequate cooling for even those low-watt chips, that dell went for quiet at the cost of heat.

And, just so I am clear
Rack mount does not work for the situation
SFF is how you want to go
Any time anyone tells you that SFF may not be the way to go, you get all pretentious on them, and ask them to leave the thread (which is a seriously weak thing to do)

Allow me to ask again, why do you not want Blades?

 

[p0lar]

Originally posted by: TheStu
p0lar, do you mind not being a uptight weenie for 5 seconds?

Personal attacks aren't warranted, take it elsewhere. Seriously, is this so hard to understand?

Anyway, it appears to me that heymrdj said is worthy of consideration. If you look just before the 'craptastic Intel' bit that got your panties in a bunch, you will see that he mentions low-wattage, something traditionally associated with low-heat as well.

Personal attacks elsewhere, again. Also, as per the original post, this isn't my call, and I'm not in a position to take that aspect of the project on -- nor is anyone else here. I'm only responsible for the network portion, of which I am well qualified to do so. I am asking for assistance on ONLY the aspect of the chassis, nothing more. Heat dissipation of the case does sound interesting and is certainly a concern I will raise to the group, but I won't discuss the merits of one CPU over another or that rackmount works better for this application because the information that led to those decisions is not at my disposal. It isn't my call, and I'm not going to stick my nose in that part of the project to jeopardize my reputation as an independent networking expert for the chance to raise a stink about issues surrounding elements I do not understand.

So, if he is saying that low-wattage intel chips (which are by the way, the brand of processor that you are looking for) tend to overheat in the SFF case, you may want to open up your eyes and read that. You are talking about C2Ds and C2Qs, not exactly the lowest heat producing chips out there.

Great, so they overheat! Not my problem, and not my responsibility, though... oddly, I do use one in my laptop and one in my iMac and neither overheat. Regardless, that aspect of the conversation (the choice of CPU) belongs in another thread. See my last response above as to why I'm not getting involved.

It is possible that those particular systems did not have adequate cooling for even those low-watt chips, that dell went for quiet at the cost of heat.

The dell was just an example -- I'm not sure why they're not considered at this point. And yes, I will note that there are SFF cooling issues, but the lead architect has almost 40 years of experience in UNIX mainframe engineering. I'm not paid to question this guy's decisions.

And, just so I am clear
Rack mount does not work for the situation
SFF is how you want to go

s/you want/he wants/

Any time anyone tells you that SFF may not be the way to go, you get all pretentious on them, and ask them to leave the thread (which is a seriously weak thing to do)

Patently false; Instead, it is the correct thing to do, rather than stoop to someone else's level of personal badgering and insults. It is off topic; thus, belongs in another thread. Start one, I'll participate as I certainly have my own opinions about c2d and rackmount equipment. Regardless, I've asked two people to start new threads on the merits of 1U vs. RackMount and their personal favorite choice for CPU (note the LACK of personal attacks, it just doesn't belong in this thread, nor is it professional).

Allow me to ask again, why do you not want Blades?

Frankly, I do not care. That aspect of the project is not mine. The group of consultants participating in this task were asked if we were aware of any particular SFF chassis within certain dimensions (somewhat flexible so not worthy of mention as it turns out) that can accommodate those specs. I will opine in another thread should someone wish to host that discussion.

 

[TheStu]

So, you were asked if you were aware of any particular SFF chassises within set dimesnions that would fit their requirements. You apparently don't which is why you are asking here. So, you tell them "I don't know, let me find out" But since you have pointed out at least twice now, you are in charge of networking (which you are qualified to do, as you also keep pointing out, might I ask that you opine about your networking abilities in another thread?) so, why do you care about the chassis?

And, since you just told me that you don't care, then why start this thread at all? Especially if you are then going to take every little thing as a personal insult (welcome to the internet by the way, you must be new here) and ask those people that were offering opinions to leave.

However, if you are looking for the absolute smallest size (why Core 2? just cause, or do they have a need for 64bit?) then the AOpen machine (its specific name escapes me right now) or the Mac Mini are wicked tiny. There is no room for a second hard drive in either of those, but I am sure that a savvy network guy like yourself could figure out some way around that.

 

[p0lar]

Originally posted by: TheStu
So, you were asked if you were aware of any particular SFF chassises within set dimesnions that would fit their requirements. You apparently don't which is why you are asking here. So, you tell them "I don't know, let me find out" But since you have pointed out at least twice now, you are in charge of networking (which you are qualified to do, as you also keep pointing out, might I ask that you opine about your networking abilities in another thread?) so, why do you care about the chassis?

Yes, you may. I am making a professional request at the behest of another professional, nothing more, nothing less.

And, since you just told me that you don't care, then why start this thread at all? Especially if you are then going to take every little thing as a personal insult (welcome to the internet by the way, you must be new here) and ask those people that were offering opinions to leave.

It's not my take on anything, it is exactly that (a personal insult), and it doesn't belong in a professional discussion or debate. Shifting the point of discussion to how the Internet works or my place in its grander scheme is irrelevant. I'm not asking anyone to leave, I'm asking them (politely) to put their opinions on topics unrelated to this discussion in another thread. While this seems difficult in concept, it really isn't.

However, if you are looking for the absolute smallest size (why Core 2? just cause, or do they have a need for 64bit?) then the AOpen machine (its specific name escapes me right now) or the Mac Mini are wicked tiny. There is no room for a second hard drive in either of those, but I am sure that a savvy network guy like yourself could figure out some way around that.

AOpen, Mac Mini -- noted, and thank you. I haven't a clue as to why they chose the c2d CPU. For all I know, Intel could be one source of funding for this project -- it could be that simple. I'm not going to ask the lead architect, but I suppose I could ask another consultant within the group if he knows more about the elements surrounding that decision, though I'm only marginally curious.

I probably won't be claiming any repertoire for adding drives to systems, but I appreciate the vote of confidence in my acute storage-expansion abilities, btw.

 

[TheStu]

The Mac Mini uses the Core Duo processor, not the Core 2. So it is still intel, but not 64 bit. The AOpen I think can be gotten in a Barebones configuration so you might be able to drop a Core 2 into it.

Almost definitely not a C2Q in either one, but since apparently there are 1000+ nodes.... im not real sure what advantage you might achieve.

Is what they are doing OS bound? If not, the you might consider the Mac Mini, plus Apple Remote Desktop Admin, and then using XGrid to network the machines, that allows them to construct themselves into a distributed network for larger operations. I know that Microsoft actually operates a very large number of Minis so they can test their Mac software. Daily builds of Office, run on many many machines... 100+ Mac Minis.

 

[p0lar]

Originally posted by: TheStu
Is what they are doing OS bound? If not, the you might consider the Mac Mini, plus Apple Remote Desktop Admin, and then using XGrid to network the machines, that allows them to construct themselves into a distributed network for larger operations. I know that Microsoft actually operates a very large number of Minis so they can test their Mac software. Daily builds of Office, run on many many machines... 100+ Mac Minis.

I got a response back from another consultant who's a bit closer than I to the application. The O/S is some kind of hybrid that is specifically tailored for that line of Intel CPUs. I didn't get much else, but am aware that they will be pushing a lot of data between each other that is extremely delay-sensitive. Aside from knowing that it's some kind of clustered application on a custom O/S, that's all I've been clued in on, and it has made my task somewhat difficult as well.

 

[Fraggable]

He asked me if I knew any case/PSU manufacturers that could accomodate that were the absolute minimum for space requirements. Not being an expert in such affairs, I am turning to AT for recommendations

maybe the Aspire XQPack2?

This reply really doesn't dignify a response

And I'm the idiot. I'm going to vote to have you banned.

 

[p0lar]

Originally posted by: Fraggable
maybe the Aspire XQPack2?

Thanks, I'll have a look. Out of curiosity, is SFF a specific designation for size or more of a category?

I'm going to vote to have you banned.

Want me to start your petition with a thread in ATOT? :beer:

 

[Fraggable]

Originally posted by: p0lar

Originally posted by: Fraggable
maybe the Aspire XQPack2?

Thanks, I'll have a look. Out of curiosity, is SFF a specific designation for size or more of a category?

Out of curiosity, did you get your head out of your rear end? Why should I answer any more questions for you?

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Fraggable

Originally posted by: p0lar

Originally posted by: Fraggable
maybe the Aspire XQPack2?

Thanks, I'll have a look. Out of curiosity, is SFF a specific designation for size or more of a category?

Out of curiosity, did you get your head out of your rear end? Why should I answer any more questions for you?

:Q

 

[Ichigo]

If you're going to act the part and get him "banned", why stay in this topic? Actually, why stay in this topic to specifically tell him that you're going to be of no help? It's clear that the OP has a set of requirements that you can't wrap your head around, so you should just stop trying to tell him otherwise; from what we can all tell, this isn't his decision to make.

To the OP: Do you have a specific price range or are you not sure yet in general about this? While there are cheaper SFF's, the newer ones with PSU's and motherboards supporting the C2D/Q's power/cooling requirements are relatively expensive, which is probably a cause for the resistance amongst certain people here, unwarranted their responses may be. I think all cases will take 2 HDD's though, just because if you don't need the 5.25" drive bay, there's your second enclosure for a SATAII HDD.

 

[p0lar]

Originally posted by: Ichigo
If you're going to act the part and get him "banned", why stay in this topic? Actually, why stay in this topic to specifically tell him that you're going to be of no help? It's clear that the OP has a set of requirements that you can't wrap your head around, so you should just stop trying to tell him otherwise; from what we can all tell, this isn't his decision to make.

To the OP: Do you have a specific price range or are you not sure yet in general about this? While there are cheaper SFF's, the newer ones with PSU's and motherboards supporting the C2D/Q's power/cooling requirements are relatively expensive, which is probably a cause for the resistance amongst certain people here, unwarranted their responses may be. I think all cases will take 2 HDD's though, just because if you don't need the 5.25" drive bay, there's your second enclosure for a SATAII HDD.

Thanks for your suggestions. I've passed everything suggested thus far (both in this topic and via PM) on to the project coordinators and am abstaining from further parts with which I have no direct involvement.

As for any hard feelings otherwise, I have apologized in private for my hostile behaviour -- it stems mostly from an urgency to correct some upside-down involvement on my part in terms of billable hours:invoiceable hours that I typically do not allow to happen. The next time I ask for advice, I will not be so hasty to narrow what is given. I'll probably just grin and nod, and discard silently what I choose not to use.

 

[Markbnj]

Polar, if you need people who will respond with laser accuracy on exactly the point of the question that you want addressed, and refrain from offering any other opinion, then I suggest you pay for a consultant. People who work on your dime will happily confine themselves to the bounds you set. People on a public forum who are taking time out of their day to try and offer advice for free deserve pretty broad lattitude within the topic.

 

[p0lar]

Originally posted by: Markbnj
Polar, if you need people who will respond with laser accuracy on exactly the point of the question that you want addressed, and refrain from offering any other opinion, then I suggest you pay for a consultant. People who work on your dime will happily confine themselves to the bounds you set. People on a public forum who are taking time out of their day to try and offer advice for free deserve pretty broad lattitude within the topic.

Originally posted by: p0lar (some 2 days ago, thank you for the thread revival)
As for any hard feelings otherwise, I have apologized in private for my hostile behaviour -- it stems mostly from an urgency to correct some upside-down involvement on my part in terms of billable hours:invoiceable hours that I typically do not allow to happen. The next time I ask for advice, I will not be so hasty to narrow what is given. I'll probably just grin and nod, and discard silently what I choose not to use.

:roll:

 

[hans007]

i would say you are best off with 1U racks.

the mac mini though is core 2 now, but i dont see how that would be a good idea in a rack situation. pretty much every 1u rack can support 2 drives and you could just use say a G33 mATX board made by intel (i figured its probably the most server worthy).

 

[mxnerd]

Don't know whether you are looking for 2.5" or 3.5" case.

www.logicsupply.com

www.epiacenter.com
http://www.epiacenter.com/modu...&file=article&sid=1143 Portwell just announce ther C2D motherboard
http://epiacenter.com/modules....ent&pa=showpage&pid=42 for cases

www.idotpc.com

have some interesting products or links if you want absolutely minimum space.