Small Business Server

[thenarcissist73]

Originally posted by: JToxic
You dont need a 6600 video card for a server. Get the cheapest card you can find or onboard if the mobo has it.

that build is dead, and yeah i realized that a while ago, i just kinda clicked the highest rated PCI-E i saw at the time, cheap PCI or onboard will do fine

 

[thenarcissist73]

Originally posted by: mechBgon

Now I'm not quite understanding how a hotswap works, or if i even need it. I dont see why these people would even be taking drives out of this server anyway.

Scenario:

You have your data array on a three-disk RAID5 array with a hot spare (a fourth drive that is running idle in its tray). You walk into the office at 9AM Monday morning, and find your server emitting an alarm. You look. Oh, drive 3 failed and that fancy SCSI RAID controller automatically grabbed the hot spare and used it to rebuild your RAID at 3:30AM on Saturday night.

Having planned for this eventuality, you open the padded box on the shelf and take out your spare Cheetah 10k.7. You pull out the tray containing the dead drive, put the new drive in its place, put the tray back into the running server, and hear 10000rpms of SCSI power up. The controller stops freaking out and assigns the new drive as its new hot spare.

Meanwhile the employees successfully close their $40,000 contract deal before the 10AM deadline. Their server stayed online, having been designed to take HDD failure in stride without having to go down for repair.

/storytelling

Ok, gotta go for a while :moon:

Nice story, makes sense, explains why hotswapping is useful. While that kind of reliability isnt critical for a company of this size, for the money they're paying for this it would make sense that they would want something they could easily recover. Thanks.

Most of my questions have been answered, i'm going to make up another build and see what you guys think of it.

Thanks

 

[wasserkool]

yah..any el cheapo vid card will do

 

[thenarcissist73]

Case:

http://www.supermicro.com/products/chassis/4U/743/SC743S2-650.cfm

 

[JackMDS]

Dell sells servers for less than will cost you and it probably would be better suitable.

Better spend you energy on the Real McCoy, which has to do with the Server Software and how to a mange the Network.

:sun:

 

[thenarcissist73]

New Build

http://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/Wis...ow.asp?ID=1591802&WishListTitle=Server

Edit: Looking at dell's website

 

[Remedy]

Originally posted by: thenarcissist73
New Build

http://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/Wis...ow.asp?ID=1591802&WishListTitle=Server

Edit: Looking at dell's website

You would utilize the S2895 instead of the S2892 or an S2891,S2881? If the board fails, do you really put that much faith into Newegg to cross-service an eATX board or $700 SCSI card? Amazing...I can't fathom why anyone would choose you to build this Unreliable system for them.

Why would you use speakers on a server that wouldn't be touched until your final year of SW enginering? Do you have an general idea on how this runs on an Opteron or Xeon DP/MP? IMO, you should request an evaluation system from one of the select OEM's for a period of 30 business days average to establish a better idea on where and how much you should be spending on performance. All that power and no reliability besides yourself is going to fail.

Tyan sells Transport Rackmount barebones and so does Supermicro. I belive IwiLL does as well. Gigabyte, etc. If you're really that bent on building from grassroots.

IMHO, you shouldn't even bother with the build. Just goto HP, GamePC.com, Polywell, etc and compare price quotes and sys evaluations.

 

[WackyDan]

Originally posted by: JackMDS
Dell sells servers for less than will cost you and it probably would be better suitable.

Better spend you energy on the Real McCoy, which has to do with the Server Software and how to a mange the Network.

:sun:

Of course... If you want a real server you'd buy an IBM

But Jack is going down the right path... I'd have to say the following to validate it....

You are spending all this time, and indeed the time in building this server.... to save $$$, when in reality, you can order one from Dell, IBM, HP, and get a solid machine, with dependable support should you really need it including onsite.... How much are you getting paid, and how much of your productivity is going to waste building this machine, from what you are doing here to the first time you boot it?

I've spent a lot of time in IT.......Building systems is time consuming, and costly to support in the long run.

 

[thenarcissist73]

Originally posted by: ReMeDy{WcS}
IMHO, you shouldn't even bother with the build. Just goto HP, GamePC.com, Polywell, etc and compare price quotes and sys evaluations.

Ok

 

[bob4432]

Originally posted by: thenarcissist73
I've built more than 10 desktop systems before, i've never explored the world of opterons and xeons and servers before so yes i'm starting a bit slow, but thats the only way to start into something that you've never done before. In over my head would be if i was building this on my own without a group of strangers to help me . Thats why I'm trying to ok everything with people who do know, and learning quite a bit in the process.

not trying to sound like a d!ck, but get a dell or hp.

"learning" on mission critical equipment is not a good idea.

you are the one that is called all the time when things don't work.

if you want to lear about servers, get an old p3 skt370 dually board with scsi on it, grab a couple 1GHz p3s or a pair of the 1.4tualatins w/ 512K (which would probably be more than enough power for your app acccording to your link anyway), or any machine for that matter faster than 2GHz and see how long you can keep it up and stable. mess around with it, if you can get some server o/s cheap then do that and learn what it is all about.

servers are about reliability and uptime measured in months, not incredible speed when it is not needed.

many people have built many more machines than you including myself and there is no way i would build the company server, i just don't want the headache, it is not worth the stress.

 

[Leros]

Are you aware that you have a dual CPU motherboard, but you only have selected one CPU?

 

[Remedy]

Originally posted by: JToxic
Are you aware that you have a dual CPU motherboard, but you only have selected one CPU?

The processor is an Opteron 275. That leaves him the option of adding the second 275 Opteron at the clients request. I don't see that as a problem.

 

[jose]

After contacting IBM over 5 times in diff. cities and waiting 3 weeks, they never got back to me w/ a firm price. And I didn't want anything Dell had, so I
built a Dual 248 Opteron w/ 4 gigs of ram & 8 - 15K 36gig hotswap hd's for little over $6000. A similiar Dell config cost close to $12,000.00 ........

http://www.relsyscon.com/projects.htm


So I built this system for my client, I'm the one who supports them anyway.

Some improvements over their prev. dell poweredge:

Reconfigure dabase: Dell took 2hrs, new Opteron takes 5min.
rekey the hash table: Dell 35min, new Opteron takes 1 min.
rebuilt refrential links: Dell 6 hrs, new Opteron takes 5 min.
rebuild B-Tree's : Dell took >8hrs. (overnight), Opteron takes 20min.

But in your case you may have to go w/ a large vendor.

Regards,
Jose

 

[thenarcissist73]

Well i've been comparing all the servers from HP, Dell and IBM and I've found the one that would be best for this business, I've customized it on their website but I just would like to make sure that everything I have is right.

# PowerEdge 2800


Catalog Number / Description Product Code SKU Id
PowerEdge 2800:
Intel® Xeon? processor at 3.0GHz/2MB Cache, 800MHz FSB
Additional Processor:
Single Processor only
Operating System:
Windows 2003 Server, Standard Edition with 5 Client Licenses
Memory:
2GB DDR2 400MHz (2X1GB), Single Ranked DIMMs
Chassis Configuration:
Tower Chassis Orientation
Bezel:
Active ID Bezel Option for Tower Configuration
Hardware Support Services:
3Yr BASIC NBD: L1 Hardware Queue, Next Business Day Onsite M-F 8am-6pm
Installation Support Services:
No Installation Assessment
Hard Drive Configuration:
Split Backplane, Drives attached to PERC4ei, RAID 1, 5; 5 drives requried
Hard Drive Backplane:
2X4 Hot-Pluggable Split Backplane,PE2800
Primary Controller:
Embedded RAID (ROMB) - PERC4ei (Embedded Integrated)
Primary Hard Drive:
73GB 10K RPM Ultra 320 SCSI Hard Drive
2nd Hard Drive:
FREE UPGRADE to 73GB 10K RPM Ultra 320 SCSI Hard Drive
3rd Hard Drive:
73GB 10K RPM Ultra 320 SCSI Hard Drive
4th Hard Drive:
73GB 10K RPM Ultra 320 SCSI Hard Drive
5th Hard Drive:
73GB 10K RPM Ultra 320 SCSI Hard Drive
Tape Backup:
PowerVault 100T, DAT72, 36/72GB, Internal, TBU, With Controller
Tape Backup Media:
DAT72, Formatted Tape Media Cartridge, 5 Pack
Network Adapter:
Onboard NICS
Power Supply:
Redundant Power Supply, No Y-CORD
Floppy Drive:
1.44MB Floppy Drive
CD/DVD Drive:
8X DVD-ROM
Keyboard:
Standard Windows Keyboard,Gray
Mouse:
Logitech PS/2 2-button Mouse with Scroll
Monitor:
Dell E773 Monitor, 17 inch (16.0 Inch Viewable), Gray
Documentation:
Electronic Documentation and OpenManage CD Kit
Technical Sales Representative Contact:
Yes
Total:
$5,234

You'll have to excuse the poor formatting, but their website doesnt make it simple to paste that here.

And you're right about going with a large vendor, dell has 3yr NBD onsite support which I'd really like to have.

Thanks.

 

[thenarcissist73]

I've a question about the software, there are quite a number of different versions of Win 2003 Server, standard, premium, small business etc...

I'm not exactly sure which one would be right, also If i get a win 2k3 server w/ 5 user licenses, do i ALSO need to get 5 licenses for ms exchange 2k3 server or is that included?

Thanks again.

 

[thenarcissist73]

Changed a few things:

PowerEdge 2800:
FREE UPGRADE to Intel® Xeon? processor at 3.0GHz/2MB Cache
Additional Processor:
FREE! Intel® Xeon? processor at 3.0GHz/2MB Cache
Operating System:
Windows 2003 Server, Standard Edition with 5 Client Licenses
Memory:
2GB DDR2 400MHz (4X512MB), Single Ranked DIMMs
Chassis Configuration:
Tower Chassis Orientation
Bezel:
Active ID Bezel Option for Tower Configuration
Hardware Support Services:
3Yr BASIC NBD: L1 Hardware Queue, Next Business Day Onsite M-F 8am-6pm
Installation Support Services:
No Installation Assessment
Hard Drive Configuration:
Split Backplane, Drives att. to RAID card, RAID 1, RAID 5; 5 drives req
Hard Drive Backplane:
2X4 Hot-Pluggable Split Backplane,PE2800
Primary Controller:
PERC4eDC-PCI Express, 128MB Cache, 2-Internal Channels
Primary Hard Drive:
73GB 10K RPM Ultra 320 SCSI Hard Drive
2nd Hard Drive:
FREE UPGRADE to 73GB 10K RPM Ultra 320 SCSI Hard Drive
3rd Hard Drive:
73GB 10K RPM Ultra 320 SCSI Hard Drive
4th Hard Drive:
73GB 10K RPM Ultra 320 SCSI Hard Drive
5th Hard Drive:
73GB 10K RPM Ultra 320 SCSI Hard Drive
Tape Backup:
PowerVault 100T, DAT72, 36/72GB, Internal, TBU, With Controller
Tape Backup Media:
DAT72, Formatted Tape Media Cartridge, 5 Pack
Network Adapter:
Onboard NICS
Dell PowerConnect Network Switches:
Dell 2224 Unmanaged Switch, 24 port FE, 1Yr NBD Advanced Exchange Service
Power Supply:
Redundant Power Supply, No Y-CORD
Floppy Drive:
1.44MB Floppy Drive
CD/DVD Drive:
8X DVD-ROM
Keyboard:
Standard Windows Keyboard,Gray
Mouse:
Logitech PS/2 2-button Mouse with Scroll
Monitor:
Dell E773 Monitor, 17 inch (16.0 Inch Viewable), Gray
Documentation:
Hard Copy Documentation and OpenManage CD Kit
Technical Sales Representative Contact:
Yes

Total: $5,599

 

[najames]

Jose,

I looked at the server on your site. What RAM is installed?

I have a Tyan S2882-D and dual Opteron 246s from the AMD Tour, and picking out RAM is driving me nuts. First, Tyan doesn't list approved PC-3200 RAM for this board. Perhaps PC-2700 is ok? I have read that is it also picky, requiring 2.5v RAM. The single or dual rank crap is also a headache since not all RAM lists this spec. I will need to install either 4x1GB or 4x512MB modules, haven't decided yet how much I will install for now. I still need a PSU and some heatsinks, but have no problem with finding those.

I have a Sun V440 at work and hope this thing will be as stable as the Sun box, list price was $25k at the time with 4cpus and 16gigs a year ago. It is a lean mean SAS number crunching machine.

I have 4 AMD64 PCs here at home and they are so easy to configure compared to this one AMD server!! Time for an AMD cluster perhaps to make life interesting.

Jim

 

[Stan]

Are you for real? Your talking 5-10 users? Get a low end Poweredge 420SC.. Get the cerec SATA raid card, 4 80 gig SATA drives (raid 5 across them). Get a bunch of maxtor external USB drives for backups. Tapes are horrible.

I just sold a *100* user system (30-50 concurrent users) a $4000 Poweredge 1800 config. You are INSANE! You dont need that much power for 5 users. And dont skimp on the waranty.. Get the 4hr onsite.. its saved my ass more times than I know.

I do this for a living.. send me an email and I can help you out with exactly what you need.


Hell! Fly me out for that kinda money ..

 

[bob4432]

Originally posted by: Stan
Are you for real? Your talking 5-10 users? Get a low end Poweredge 420SC.. Get the cerec SATA raid card, 4 80 gig SATA drives (raid 5 across them). Get a bunch of maxtor external USB drives for backups. Tapes are horrible.

I just sold a *100* user system (30-50 concurrent users) a $4000 Poweredge 1800 config. You are INSANE! You dont need that much power for 5 users. And dont skimp on the waranty.. Get the 4hr onsite.. its saved my ass more times than I know.

I do this for a living.. send me an email and I can help you out with exactly what you need.


Hell! Fly me out for that kinda money ..

my thoughts exactly

 

[Stan]

If you have < 75 users go with SBS.. its tons cheaper. You can always migrate to a real Windows/Exchange server if you get >75 employees fairly easily (We do such a process in 20 hours billable time).

Backup Exec for SBS is alot cheaper too. Price out SBS and an Exchange connector to see what im talking about .

 

[Deinonych]

Originally posted by: mechBgon
Focus on reliability and surivability, not power. I'd think about a hefty APC SmartUPS XL uninterruptible power supply, SCSI RAID1 for the OS, separate SCSI RAID1 for the data, dedicated HDD cooling, name-brand R-ECC memory, a good DLT tape drive with 10 tapes and a cleaning cartridge, a safe-deposit-box rental at the closest bank so you can keep tapes off-site... that's what makes a server special, not how much raw power is flyin' around inside the box but how hard it is to kill it for good. IMHO.

:thumbsup:

Well said. Servers should be built with redundancy, reliability, scalability and serviceability in mind first and foremost. Once you have those factors accounted for, you can worry about performance. A key thing to remember is, if a server goes down, it impacts multiple users (and your business). It's a lot more critical than someone's desktop hard disk crashing.

 

[Stan]

All the hardware in the world wont save you if you don't configure the software right. I would highly recommend having a seasoned professional configure your backups, and make sure everythign is up to snuff. Too many times I have seen clients who thought their backups were working (it makes noise at night!) only to find out that when the drives die.. it wasnt a full backup.

Factor in half a day for a local consultant to just check things over.

 

[najames]

We have 5 users here at work, with a 4 CPU and 16GB Sun V440!! It gets a hard workout the first week of every month running SAS programs to build out the warehouse, do forecasting projections, and intensive number crunching for reporting. It does a fraction of testing/development work the rest of the month.

I would actually like to build the "cheap" server and compare it. I think a GOOD dual Opteron would be PLENTY of machine at a fraction of the $25K price tag. I have benchmarked the Sun box fairly intensively and did some significant tweaking, if I build indexes for our main tables (about 3.5GB) it will read them in 0.03 seconds vs maybe 35 seconds without. I'll bet if we tweaked a dual CPU box, added indexes, etc, it would also work very well.

We got the Sun because SAS "consultants" said that was what we needed plus we have a lot of Sun equipment here already. IT listened to SAS not me, when I said it was overkill. The Sunny is fun to use though, mainframe jobs queue and take 4 hours to run, the Sun does them in a few minutes.

Back to the S2882-D box. I called Tyan support and asked about the lack of verified PC-3200 RAM for the S2882-D although they claim it works and said that ANY RAM verified for the standard S2882 (non-D) will work ok. They also said that ranks won't matter in 1GB or less modules, which I question based on other information read. They said DO NOT use any RAM that needs over 2.6V.

I ended up ordering from Crucial. They have single rank 512MB in stock if you call and request them. If you order online they don't have it set up to list both products. They said they are approved for the S2882-D under Micron also. Good deal and the price is about the same as Kingston's similar 1 rank module.

Stan, this is how we do our backups. 8>)

http://www.backuptrauma.com/video/default2.aspx