SLi and Vsynch

[nRollo]

I asked one NVIDIA's SLi product managers about the apparent confusion with SLi and vsynch I encountered in another thread here.

In the spirit of not derailing that thread further, and getting the official word out on the subject:

1. There are no profiles which disable Vsynch automatically.

2. Vsynch is compatible with AFR

3. Vsynch is controlled by application profile, and with the global settings in the control panel.

 

[CP5670]

What happens if you try to use vsync together with triple buffering? I didn't have time to keep following the previous thread on this issue, but it is possible that it may have actually been triple buffering that was somehow causing vsync to be disabled for me. A lot of games have it on by default if vsync is enabled. The difference is not that important in practice as vsync is rarely useful by itself due to the high performance hit, but it would be useful to know what exactly is causing the incompatibility.

In the spirit of not derailing that thread further, and getting the official word out on the subject:

This is basically only your word as far as many of us are concerned. Although I am open to the possibility that something else was causing trouble for me.

 

[JAG87]

Originally posted by: nRollo
I asked one NVIDIA's SLi product managers about the apparent confusion with SLi and vsynch I encountered in another thread here.

In the spirit of not derailing that thread further, and getting the official word out on the subject:

1. There are no profiles which disable Vsynch automatically.

2. Vsynch is compatible with AFR

3. Vsynch is controlled by application profile, and with the global settings in the control panel.

None of those statements address the fact that vsync just DOESN'T WORK with SLI in all the latest drivers. The last driver I recall with working vsync + SLI was 163.75. Can you please inform those douche bags at nvidia that some of us would like vsync to actually work when we choose Force ON in a profile. Please tell them to take a look at 163.75, and see what they did right for once. All the performance improvements and new profiles in recent drivers are very nice, but with vsync its been nothing but a step backwards.

Oh and while you are at it, tell them it would be nice to have a Pro Evolution Soccer 2008 profile, they have PES 5 and PES 6, and PES 2008 has been out for months now. It's one of those games that tears like a champ without vsync, and since vsync + SLI is still unresolved, I'm guessing that's why they still didn't make a profile for it.

Thanks rollo, much appreciated.

 

[Mr Fox]

Originally posted by: nRollo
I asked one NVIDIA's SLi product managers about the apparent confusion with SLi and vsynch I encountered in another thread here.

In the spirit of not derailing that thread further, and getting the official word out on the subject:

1. There are no profiles which disable Vsynch automatically.

2. Vsynch is compatible with AFR

3. Vsynch is controlled by application profile, and with the global settings in the control panel.

Thanks Rollo I appreciate your helping the others with this issue !!

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: JAG87

None of those statements address the fact that vsync just DOESN'T WORK with SLI in all the latest drivers. The last driver I recall with working vsync + SLI was 163.75. Can you please inform those douche bags at nvidia that some of us would like vsync to actually work when we choose Force ON in a profile. Please tell them to take a look at 163.75, and see what they did right for once. All the performance improvements and new profiles in recent drivers are very nice, but with vsync its been nothing but a step backwards.

Oh and while you are at it, tell them it would be nice to have a Pro Evolution Soccer 2008 profile, they have PES 5 and PES 6, and PES 2008 has been out for months now. It's one of those games that tears like a champ without vsync, and since vsync + SLI is still unresolved, I'm guessing that's why they still didn't make a profile for it.

Thanks rollo, much appreciated.

???

Works for me with 169.25? Are you saying it isn't for you in non profiled games in later drivers, or any games?

 

[JAG87]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: JAG87

None of those statements address the fact that vsync just DOESN'T WORK with SLI in all the latest drivers. The last driver I recall with working vsync + SLI was 163.75. Can you please inform those douche bags at nvidia that some of us would like vsync to actually work when we choose Force ON in a profile. Please tell them to take a look at 163.75, and see what they did right for once. All the performance improvements and new profiles in recent drivers are very nice, but with vsync its been nothing but a step backwards.

Oh and while you are at it, tell them it would be nice to have a Pro Evolution Soccer 2008 profile, they have PES 5 and PES 6, and PES 2008 has been out for months now. It's one of those games that tears like a champ without vsync, and since vsync + SLI is still unresolved, I'm guessing that's why they still didn't make a profile for it.

Thanks rollo, much appreciated.

???

Works for me with 169.25? Are you saying it isn't for you in non profiled games in later drivers, or any games?

I only use vsync for PES 2008, because there is excessive tearing without it. There is no profile for it, I create my own. I use AFR1, Triple buffering On, and Vsync On, everything else default.

AFR1 gives almost double the frame rate at 2560x1600 compared to Single GPU, but vsync is lost forever. Vsync only works with Single GPU.

I also tried to force vsync from the global settings, in case it was problem with the manually created profile, no difference. I also tried just Vsync with no triple buffering, no difference.

It's been like this since 163.75. Right now I am running 171.17. I just thought you could let nvidia know that for someone who spent 1400 dollars just on video cards, and has another 1500 set aside for when the 9 series comes out, I am getting pretty PISSED off.

 

[CP5670]

It's been like this since 163.75. Right now I am running 171.17. I just thought you could let nvidia know that for someone who spent 1400 dollars just on video cards, and has another 1500 set aside for when the 9 series comes out, I am getting pretty PISSED off.

I know the feeling. When you pay top dollar for these multi GPU setups, this sort of garbage is the last thing you want to run into. :thumbsdown:

As I mentioned in the other thread on this, I believe vsync and TB work in most of the major AAA titles, but if you go to a game that is not benchmarked often on hardware sites (either because it's older or simply not that well known), chances are that it won't work.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: CP5670

It's been like this since 163.75. Right now I am running 171.17. I just thought you could let nvidia know that for someone who spent 1400 dollars just on video cards, and has another 1500 set aside for when the 9 series comes out, I am getting pretty PISSED off.

I know the feeling. When you pay top dollar for these multi GPU setups, this sort of garbage is the last thing you want to run into. :thumbsdown:

As I mentioned in the other thread on this, I believe vsync and TB work in most of the major AAA titles, but if you go to a game that is not benchmarked often on hardware sites (either because it's older or simply not that well known), chances are that it won't work.

Hmmm.

Well I just played GTA San Andreas at 25X16, AFR1 forced on, 4X16X, Vsynch and triple buffer on, and FRAPs stayed locked on 25fps.

Which was pretty strange because a. it played very smooth for being below 30fps b. why 25fps?

In any case, I've told by NVIDIA again that triple buffering should work with Vsynch and SLi.

Edit: Ah, I see this game caps framerates at 25.

 

[BFG10K]

None of those statements address the fact that vsync just DOESN'T WORK with SLI in all the latest drivers.

I agree. In fact those statements are so vague they don't really address the issue at all.

I want to see a statement "vsync + triple buffering will function in the majority of titles when using AFR or AFR2", otherwise it?s just PR claptrap akin to the TWIMTBP campaign.

I can find cases where vsync doesn't even work on my single 8800 Ultra but it's not a big deal to me because I don't generally use vsync.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

None of those statements address the fact that vsync just DOESN'T WORK with SLI in all the latest drivers.

I agree. In fact those statements are so vague they don't really address the issue at all.

I want to see a statement "vsync + triple buffering will function in the majority of titles when using AFR or AFR2", otherwise it?s just PR claptrap akin to the TWIMTBP campaign.

I can find cases where vsync doesn't even work on my single 8800 Ultra but it's not a big deal to me because I don't generally use vsync.

You guys are overlooking the fact that vsynch seems to work in the games I've played, with the latest drivers, and NVIDIA themselves says it does.

Carry on though, you're entitled to think it doesn't work if you like.

Meanwhile, I played UT3 tonight with 3 way AFR on, vsynch on, and triple buffering on, and stayed locked on 60fps.

 

[lopri]

WTH is Pro Evolution Soccer?

 

[JAG87]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

None of those statements address the fact that vsync just DOESN'T WORK with SLI in all the latest drivers.

I agree. In fact those statements are so vague they don't really address the issue at all.

I want to see a statement "vsync + triple buffering will function in the majority of titles when using AFR or AFR2", otherwise it?s just PR claptrap akin to the TWIMTBP campaign.

I can find cases where vsync doesn't even work on my single 8800 Ultra but it's not a big deal to me because I don't generally use vsync.

same here, except for PES 2008 though. without vsync, this game is borderline unacceptable. lets be honest, I still play it and love every minute of it, but for someone who spent all this money on graphics, I feel like dog poop when my favorite game tears on my 30 inch screen.

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: BFG10K

None of those statements address the fact that vsync just DOESN'T WORK with SLI in all the latest drivers.

I agree. In fact those statements are so vague they don't really address the issue at all.

I want to see a statement "vsync + triple buffering will function in the majority of titles when using AFR or AFR2", otherwise it?s just PR claptrap akin to the TWIMTBP campaign.

I can find cases where vsync doesn't even work on my single 8800 Ultra but it's not a big deal to me because I don't generally use vsync.

You guys are overlooking the fact that vsynch seems to work in the games I've played, with the latest drivers, and NVIDIA themselves says it does.

Carry on though, you're entitled to think it doesn't work if you like.

Meanwhile, I played UT3 tonight with 3 way AFR on, vsynch on, and triple buffering on, and stayed locked on 60fps.

don't try and defend this issue, or im going to get very stingy. nobody cares what works for you if it doesn't work for anyone else.

do something to help instead of defending the issue. we all know you are close to nvidia, and since they dont seem to give a shit if anyone else gives them feedback, maybe they will care if it comes from you.

Originally posted by: lopri
WTH is Pro Evolution Soccer?

it's what fifa has always tried to be.

 

[CP5670]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: BFG10K

None of those statements address the fact that vsync just DOESN'T WORK with SLI in all the latest drivers.

I agree. In fact those statements are so vague they don't really address the issue at all.

I want to see a statement "vsync + triple buffering will function in the majority of titles when using AFR or AFR2", otherwise it?s just PR claptrap akin to the TWIMTBP campaign.

I can find cases where vsync doesn't even work on my single 8800 Ultra but it's not a big deal to me because I don't generally use vsync.

You guys are overlooking the fact that vsynch seems to work in the games I've played, with the latest drivers, and NVIDIA themselves says it does.

Carry on though, you're entitled to think it doesn't work if you like.

Meanwhile, I played UT3 tonight with 3 way AFR on, vsynch on, and triple buffering on, and stayed locked on 60fps.

See, this is why people continue to find you a bit irritating here. You could be using your Nvidia connections to help people resolve problems like this, and it would be well appreciated. I believe this is what Derek had in mind when he let you back on here. Instead, you're just trying to deny that any issue exists and arguing with anyone who brings it up. What Nvidia says should happen is honestly irrelevant when people are still running into trouble with it.

I personally haven't used SLI in quite some time and my knowledge is admittedly a bit out of date, but it was still well after the 80 series drivers that supposedly fixed everything according to Nvidia. I use both vsync and triple buffering in everything (motion in general doesn't look quite smooth to me without it) and can point to numerous games where it was a problem and effectively made SLI useless to me.

Also, a game getting locked at the refresh rate doesn't necessarily mean everything is working properly. Triple buffering on AFR may still be disabled, especially given that the article you yourself posted in the other thread says it doesn't work with multi-GPU setups. I have also run into cases where tearing shows up even when the framerate is constrained.

 

[apoppin]

i run across some interesting things from time-to-time

perhaps you guys ... and especially [nv]Rollo might care to look at this - are you UNaware of "new" SLi rendering modes that have been *recently added*?
-i thought you got your info directly from nvidia

i believe that AFR3 - has been in the drivers for a little while now ... why don't you guys open up "nHancer" and take a look for yourselves

hint ... it's under "new AFR" ... and it sure looks like SLi:AFR3
:roll:

 

[lavaheadache]

Vsync and triple buffering works for me... However sometimes Sli seems a little jittery to me. Even though I have high frame rates it doesn't always seem smooth like youd expect

 

[CP5670]

Vsync and triple buffering works for me... However sometimes Sli seems a little jittery to me. Even though I have high frame rates it doesn't always seem smooth like youd expect

That may actually be an indication that either vsync or TB is not working properly. I got the same issue in several games and it was seemingly related to vsync in some way, as it only happened when vsync wasn't working.

 

[lavaheadache]

well I don't have any tearing, Oh well I'm not too concerned. I did install nhancer though and running with AFR3 on, Cod 4 runs awesome. 1920x1200 4xAA, I rarely see frames below 70. Even with super sampling I'm way above 60 fps

 

[Keysplayr]

Quote from NVNews forum:

"Vsync caps it but without triple buffering it will only go to either 60 fps, 30 fps, 15 fps, --- along those lines. It cannot reach framerates inbetween those numbers. So if you're getting 58 FPS, it will drop down to 30."

It seems that with triple buffering + Vsync, SLI may be disabled and only one card is generating frames. One guy said that he had enabled the SLI bar to show, but nothing was there when enabling vsync. So maybe SLI is disabled, otherwise there would be a SLI bar present.

Some people said that increasing refresh rate to 75 helps, but that doesn't help those who cannot adjust refresh. A lot of LCD's are locked at 60.

Others say they had luck using the analog connection as opposed to DVI. Others did not.

Now before everyone jumps in and says, "We shouldn't have to do these things after spending so much money". This has been said already and we know this. But that doesn't help the situation. What we can do, is find out what works, and what doesn't, and ask Rollo to forward this to Nvidia. If you all work together, you might make a difference. Who knows.

The belly-aching has been done, and noted. Now end it and do something productive.

Search the web. Post possible things to try. One of them just might work. I can only help in the searching part, because i do not have SLI setup, yet.

So, as of right now, when vsync is enabled without triple buffering, framerates tank.
When triple buffering is enabled, SLI may be going disabled. Can anyone confirm this with the SLI bar feature? Or is that not possible with AFR, and only with SFR.??

Dunno.
/2 cents.

 

[BFG10K]

Meanwhile, I played UT3 tonight with 3 way AFR on, vsynch on, and triple buffering on, and stayed locked on 60fps.

As has been mentioned before UT3 is a high-profile, actively benchmarked game. But for every game like UT3 there are probably ten others not like it.

For me it?s a non-issue since vsync totally defeats the purpose of SLI - to attain the highest possible framerate - but for others it?s obviously quite important.

It seems that with triple buffering + Vsync, SLI may be disabled and only one card is generating frames. One guy said that he had enabled the SLI bar to show, but nothing was there when enabling vsync.

This is my suspicion, that SLI is either being disabled or is dropping back to SFR when triple buffering is enabled.

With AFR I don't think the cards double buffer as normal but instead each card has one buffer which the driver alternates between. Trying to fit a third buffer into that equation would make things very messy, if it even worked at all.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: apoppin
i run across some interesting things from time-to-time

perhaps you guys ... and especially [nv]Rollo might care to look at this - are you UNaware of "new" SLi rendering modes that have been *recently added*?
-i thought you got your info directly from nvidia

i believe that AFR3 - has been in the drivers for a little while now ... why don't you guys open up "nHancer" and take a look for yourselves

hint ... it's under "new AFR" ... and it sure looks like SLi:AFR3
:roll:

I think AFR3 is three way AFR Apoppin. When I open up CP it says "3 way AFR" now.

 

[ricleo2]

"I just thought you could let nvidia know that for someone who spent 1400 dollars just on video cards, and has another 1500 set aside for when the 9 series comes out, I am getting pretty PISSED off. "

Right there with you. I think Nvidia is running out of time in not making what their customers want.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: ricleo2
"I just thought you could let nvidia know that for someone who spent 1400 dollars just on video cards, and has another 1500 set aside for when the 9 series comes out, I am getting pretty PISSED off. "

Right there with you. I think Nvidia is running out of time in not making what their customers want.

On the contrary. Both ATI and Nvidia have a wide selection of parts. The 1/10th of 1 percent that actually use SLI or crossfire have legitimate complaints. Just don't expect preferential treatment when this user base is so low. However, multicore solutions seems to be where the industry is headed. All the limitations still need much work.

BTW. I am not belittling those few who actually use SLI. The inherent problems are very annoying for you. I am actually holding off on a second GTS640 for myself. I have the SLI mobo, but not sure if I want to go there. Maybe one or two more generations from now. For now, I'll stick to one fast card. I have my eyes peeled for something like a 9800GTS or something along those lines.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
i run across some interesting things from time-to-time

perhaps you guys ... and especially [nv]Rollo might care to look at this - are you UNaware of "new" SLi rendering modes that have been *recently added*?
-i thought you got your info directly from nvidia

i believe that AFR3 - has been in the drivers for a little while now ... why don't you guys open up "nHancer" and take a look for yourselves

hint ... it's under "new AFR" ... and it sure looks like SLi:AFR3
:roll:

I think AFR3 is three way AFR Apoppin. When I open up CP it says "3 way AFR" now.

You are pretty clueless ... in the interest of 'accuracy', had to ask for a little help last night:

http://img134.imageshack.us/im.../9730/afrmodes1qq2.jpg

http://img409.imageshack.us/im.../9361/afrmodes2qa7.jpg

AFR3 IS 3-way SLi related but you can use it if you only have two cards. Some profiles are set to use it by default - Oblivion being an example (see link below). The profile says 'disabled' as it is a predefined profile you have to duplicate before you can alter any settings in it.


http://img221.imageshack.us/im...90/oblivionafr3lu0.jpg

Jeeze ..

 

[nullpointerus]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

It seems that with triple buffering + Vsync, SLI may be disabled and only one card is generating frames. One guy said that he had enabled the SLI bar to show, but nothing was there when enabling vsync.

This is my suspicion, that SLI is either being disabled or is dropping back to SFR when triple buffering is enabled.

With AFR I don't think the cards double buffer as normal but instead each card has one buffer which the driver alternates between. Trying to fit a third buffer into that equation would make things very messy, if it even worked at all.

Maybe that's why triple-buffering appears to be working for nRollo w/ 3-way SLI? With three cards, there would be three buffers by default with AFR. The driver could, in theory, just use the most up-to-date buffer.

EDIT:

If this is true, then, with vsync on, the driver must be smart enough to lock the most recently completed buffer so that the monitor always has one completed frame per refresh. Consequently, the card corresponding to that locked buffer would have to sit idle until the next buffer is locked. Performance of 3-way SLI would be reduced somewhat w/ vsync on when the fps exceeds the monitor's refresh rate.

So it wouldn't be as good as triple buffering with one more powerful card, but it would still be able to decouple rendering from the 15/30/60 cycle of vsync + double-buffering.

...in theory...

 

[CP5670]

For now, I think the best option for these situations is to try forcing SFR. It is not very well supported since very few games use it by default and there were some problems with it when I last tried it (notably a flickering white line in the middle of the screen in most games, at the load balancing transition; this was different from the green bar and appeared even when that was disabled), but they may have fixed those since then.

Also, my experience has been that OpenGL games in general are more likely to work than Direct3D ones. I remember everything working perfectly in Doom 3, Quake 4 and Riddick, which were all OpenGL games, but can't clearly remember seeing the same kind of smooth motion in anything else, although it has been a while. This doesn't apply to all OpenGL games, as a number of older ones didn't work. Have there been any other OpenGL games released in the last few years, apart from things based on the Doom 3 engine?