SLI and the Scam behind it

[friedrice]

First off, I am not completely bashing SLI. It's a good idea. But at the present moment, it isn't worth it. Also to note, all my prices come from www.newegg.com

The motherboards I am comparing are the MSI K8N Neo 4 Plat with the nForce 4 Ultra and the Gigabyte GA-K8NXP-SLI nForce4 SLI. The Neo is found at $169 whereas the Gigabyte is $215 A $46 price difference right off the bat.

The only card that would make sense to do SLI is the Geforce 6800 GT, which can be found at $394. Two of these will make the price $788. So, you would be paying $563 for the Neo board and 1 geforce 6800 and $1003 for the SLI board.

Now, I do not have links on me, but I have read several sites, Anandtech included, that SLI is good for upgrades. So let's think about this. A Geforce 6800 GT is going to last a good 1-2 years. Now think back 2 years ago, to the year 2003. According to http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=1608&p=9 , this the era of the Geforce 4. Going along with the fact that you prolly got the best card, the Geforce 4 TI 4600, I will assume this is what you have. Now, imagine if the Geforce4 had SLI. Now fast forward to today. You have a Geforce 4 TI 4600, and you want to upgrade. Are you going to buy another DirectX 8 Geforce 4 card. Let's assume you wanted to upgrade sooner.

Case in point, a lot changes over a year or 2. New technology such as the a new DirectX version.

This has been viewing it from a price perspective. Now let's look at the true scam.

There is no reason in the world why the Neo4 can not do SLI. It has one 16X PCI express and 1 4X PCI express. This is only limited by the fact that nVidia wants to milk out as much money as possible. Also to go farther on that, it seems silly that the same video card chipset must be used. I am not an expert in the area, but I see no reason why a 6600GT and a 6800GT can not be in SLI. The drivers can control how much to send to each card, as to not overload it.

To add more to this, it has been found that a DFI nForce4 ultra board can be changed to a SLI board though a hack. This proves the point that there is really no difference between it, only price.

As if that weren't enough, SLI only works in support games, which is very limited to just the most of the most popular games.

What nVidia can do to fix this:
Firstly, I believe more time needs to be put into developing it. It seems silly that each single game must be supported. It also seems silly that the exact same video chipset must be used. If I could pair a 6800 GT with a Geforce 8, I would be all for SLI.
It also seems very odd that the Ultra can be tricked into a SLI board, thus making it no reason to get an SLI board other then nVidia will shake it's finger at you.

Benchmark wise, the bonus of SLI just doesn't justify the cost. Save the $400 bucks and toss out the Geforce 6800 GT and buy a Geforce7 GT with it when the card comes out. Your single Geforce7 will smoke anyone with SLI Geforce 6800 GT.

This article is more to bring awareness to readers. I have yet to really see a website say anything negative about SLI, or really look at the big picture of it. I imagine if ATI decides to enter this market, things will heat up. After all, competition is good.

 

[ChineseDemocracyGNR]

Well, to me SLI is not worth it because it's limited to the apps optimized by nVidia's drivers, and I don't really see the whole "Upgrade" argument. For example, instead of getting one 6600GT now and a second later, you could sell the 6600GT later and buy the 6800GT or the 7200GT (whatever).]

What I really wanted to say here though is that the ASUS A8N-SLI Deluxe is around $180 if you search pricewatch.

 

[mrscintilla]

True, SLI is probably not needed. But is the difference betwen SLI and ultra WORTH money that amounts only a diner cost? The answer is murkier. For people that have jobs, the extra 40-50 bucks is not a big point of discussion.. As I said before, A8n-sli's slogan should just be "Just Get It"!

 

[bradley]

Originally posted by: friedrice
To add more to this, it has been found that a DFI nForce4 ultra board can be changed to a SLI board though a hack. This proves the point that there is really no difference between it, only price.

There still hasn't been any qualitative proof concerning the differences between the Ultra and SLI chipsets; although, there are definitively differences in manufacturing standards between an Ultra and SLI motherboard.

In fact, notice how Nvidia is only allowing SLI chipset access to the top-tier of four or five motherboard manufacturers. That's because the sheer amount of wattage needed to run SLI, at the very least, will demand stability at higher stress tolerances, and therefore require a greater manufacturing expense. And cheaply made SLI motherboards - the ones that cut corners - would be a headache to try to support, and could possibly sully Nvidia's reputation.

Originally posted by: friedrice
As if that weren't enough, SLI only works in support games, which is very limited to just the most of the most popular games.

This is true. A lot of people assume that SLI immediately doubles the speed of all games; when it's really limited by which games are especially written into the drivers. They also don't also realize buying an SLI motherboard will likely require a new higher-powered powersupply.

Although, I can't justify an SLI rig simply for the amount of heat and power it generates & wastes. There are signs of energy shortages starting to loom in major metropolises across America. And I would like to loosen my individual load on the power grid, and be part of the energy conservation solution... not part of the problem.

 

[Creideike]

Friedrice not to flame you man or piss you off, but you don't even own a SLI system, so why start downing something you don't have personal experience with. All I can say is don't knock it till you try it. You can't expect a new technology to be perfect and fully supported by all games and drivers, the A8N-SLI has only been out a few months, and the SLI, unless you count 3D-FX try at it in the 90's, only a year of so in production. This newness issue also affects the price as well..."can we say capitalism", why make the MSRP when there are five MB or 6800GT/Ultras in the area with high demand, when you can jack-up the price and make more money. About getting NV50 cards, of course they will beat up the NV40 cards in SLI, but wait what about NV50 cards in SLI?...the potential to upgrade is still there as long as one has the money!

This article is more to bring awareness to readers. I have yet to really see a website say anything negative about SLI, or really look at the big picture of it

This says to me maybe people are really happy with their systems and the technology, and therefore find no reason to say anything negative about it!

Just some food for thought

 

[SunSamurai]

1. I don't really think more pratical buying of SLi are going to waist 1+ years to put in a second card. I'm speaking for myself of course, but if I were to get SLi and a 6800GT, the second one would be the very next upgrade to the system. Might take two months tops. Then in 2+ years I sell them both and buy one new state of the art card.

2. I am only considering SLi becuase I cant find any bloody Ultras, either at all, or for much less than Sli.

3. The Ultra to SLi is great and all, and it really made me lean twords ultra, but the thing is, its not full Sli. 4xpcie is a bottleneck, and if Im going to ever do full on two cards, I want no bottleneck, especially if SLi isnt going to cost more than ~$30 of Ultra.

4. Not saying its untrue, but I have seen nothing to state that games have to be profiled or they wont work in SLi.

5. No Sli + 2 6800GTs does not justify the prefomance, but buaght over time (2 months or so) it may, and the value will hold to at least half before 2007. That should be enough for, as I said in point #1 and new high preformance card.

 

[scruffles]

I'm not much for the upgrade path either. I do see the majority of people buying the board and getting two graphicls cards. This makes sence, in the way the you can attain a new level of graphic performance with two cards. I think it's a smart buy if you want the best out there and are willing to pay for two top of thi line cards. If not, then it really doesn't make sense.

 

[maverik007]

Guys, Guys, Guys,

I have just upgraded to Sli and there have been teething issues (2 blown MOBO's and 1 blown 6800GT).

Now we are getting a better understanding of all this, reliability will improve with BIOS/DRIVER updates.

I was lucky enough to be able to sell my 'old' system parts on ebay for very reasonable price and the upgrade path was easy:

The A8N-Sli cost no more than my P4C800-E (recouperated 80% of original buy price)
The PCI-E 6800GT cost no more than my AGP 6800GT (recouperated 80% of original buy price)
I did have to buy another PCI-E card for SLi so that was a big outlay.
Sold my Prescott 3.4 for the price I purchased my winchester 3500 (100% recoup there)

I already had an OCZ Powerstream 520w PSU, raptor drive etc etc etc...

Without the extra card, this upgrade cost me around £85, hardly bank breaking.

The point is this, even with one card this is faster than my P4 Prescott in all but video encoding.

Using MACH 2 cooling it overclocks realy well (althought ere are still BIOS issues at present).

The biggest part of the upgrade was the move to PCI-E, but thats just the way technology goes I just chose to go a littell further with Sli.

It makes good sense from a manufacturing point of view to build one Nforce4 chip and lock out the options people dont want to purchase - it's more cost effective than running 3 lines to do the same job with minor differences - THIS HELPS KEEP THEIR COSTS DOWN WHICH IS REFLECTED IN THE PRICE WE PURCHASE THESE THINGS FOR!!! I firmly believe in you get what you pay for, if you are able to squeeze more from something, it's a bonus, not a right - people often lose sight of that and rage against the machine for no real reason. But dont get me started on microsoft - no one likes a monopoly.

I agree that technology moves on, but that's part of the fun, the game is to maximise your sell price (of old stuff) and upgrade at the right times to keep your upgrade costs to minimum.

Who's to say the next generation VGA cards arent going to be Sli? Personally I'd love to see dual core GPU's, which I am sure is what Sli is a test bed for. WE can then move to dual-core sli - mmmmm NICE!!

I am very happy with 21k in 3dm03, 11k in 3dm05 and without sli I am happy with 27k in 3dm2001SE. Games that come out over the next 18months will be based on the engines available today (doom3, HL2, UT2004) in the same way that the quakeIII engine held on for nearly 3 years powering some of the classics we all know and love (MOHAA, RTCW etc etc....).

It's all about choices, I chose to go Sli, you may not want to - but that is your choice - I dont think it fair to vent out your frustrations an those who make a choice that is not in line with how you see it..

This is not a flamer to anyone or am I out to upset anyone - it's just my view on what I feel is a mountain made from mole hills.

 

[Tanclearas]

Friedrice, you are not the first one to make this "observation", which is fatally flawed.

If you build two high quality systems that differ only in motherboard where one is SLI and one is not, you are talking about a very small difference in price. Honestly, whether you are building an SLI system or not, you should be buying good quality components. The comparisons I'm seeing people make are a $25 power supply against a $100 power supply, and a $100 no-frills motherboard against a $200 motherboard with dual gb LAN, firewire, 8 SATA, and all the cables and ports you need.

I purchased an A8N-SLI to give me the option of SLI. I didn't buy two cards. If I do decide to go SLI, it won't be in two years, it will be within 6 months. If I never go SLI, no big deal. I spent about $50 extra to get the SLI motherboard. I didn't have to spend $100+ for a power supply. Honestly, the only people that will need to shell out for the expensive power supplies are those that are planning on systems with 2 Ultras, multiple hard drives, a couple of optical drives, and 4 sticks of RAM (look for the several postings I have made about the chart from the A8N-SLI manual about power requirements). For these people, spending the extra on a power supply isn't a big deal anyway. For the rest of us, whether we are going SLI or not, we should be buying a power supply of sufficient quality to handle 6600GT/6800GT SLI configurations anyway!

You're not bringing awareness to readers. You are simply a source of FUD.

 

[LTC8K6]

I didn't have to spend $100+ for a power supply.

You don't appear to be running 2 video cards, either.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6

I didn't have to spend $100+ for a power supply.

You don't appear to be running 2 video cards, either.

I'd wager that a 50 dollar PSU should do the trick. $100 PSU seems a bit excessive even if you are running 2 cards....

 

[LTC8K6]

The real question is whether most people would need a new PS. Most people would to run 2 cards, imo.

Would his Antec 380W do the job with 2 cards? He won't know until he tries.

As far as I can see, SLI is still a lot of trouble getting to work 100% anyway.

 

[CraigRT]

yeah i agree, not worth it... bragging rights, and e-pen0s extension!

 

[Tanclearas]

Sigh....

Search for my multiple posts regarding the power requirements for SLI. I even said that in my post.

 

[Amaroque]

SLI isn't mainstream, and never will be. It is for a niche crowd, with money to burn. Nothing wrong with it, if the extra cost doesn't affect your pocket.

Jealous people bitching about someone else blowing a few hundred extra dollars is stupid. Who cares? It's not your money. $500 is not the same to me, as it is to you. $500 is not that big of a big deal to me.

I don't own an SLI setup because I don't game a whole lot. See? I have a GT @ Ultra, but I don't game much. Why? Because ~$400 for a video card isn't a big deal to me. And whatever games I do play, I want all the eye candy maxed out at 1280x1024.

So get a job, and quit complaining about what other people do...

 

[friedrice]

The big point is, why get SLI now, when you can spend $400 in 6 months to 1 year and get the newest Geforce card, which will beat a SLI set up.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: Amaroque
SLI isn't mainstream, and never will be. It is for a niche crowd, with money to burn. Nothing wrong with it, if the extra cost doesn't affect your pocket.

Jealous people bitching about someone else blowing a few hundred extra dollars is stupid. Who cares? It's not your money. $500 is not the same to me, as it is to you. $500 is not that big of a big deal to me.

I don't own an SLI setup because I don't game a whole lot. See? I have a GT @ Ultra, but I don't game much. Why? Because ~$400 for a video card isn't a big deal to me. And whatever games I do play, I want all the eye candy maxed out at 1280x1024.

So get a job, and quit complaining about what other people do...

Partially my position, also, I think the upgrade value has merit.

But, this is going to be an issue which splits people pretty heavily.

 

[Amaroque]

Originally posted by: friedrice
The big point is, why get SLI now, when you can spend $400 in 6 months to 1 year and get the newest Geforce card, which will beat a SLI set up.

Ever stop to think that someone buying SLI now, will have two new video cards in six months?

If you're concerned about cost, SLI isn't for you.

 

[Creideike]

The big point is, why get SLI now, when you can spend $400 in 6 months to 1 year and get the newest Geforce card, which will beat a SLI set up.

Because when these new cards come out, what is to say you can't throw these new cards into SLI in an existing SLI rig?...I don't think that Nvidia (and ATI as rumored to soon have their own SLI setup) is just going to throw away all this time and money into R&D just to come out with something unsupported by SLI in 6 months to a year, especially when SLI MBs, as far as I have read, seem to be a very popular item! So as mentioned above it?s pointless to tell people not to buy a SLI system, when it?s for the gamer enthusiasts who have the money to shell out for top of the line performance; not the more mainstream or casual computer shoppers.

 

[Shimmishim]

Originally posted by: aeternitas
1. I don't really think more pratical buying of SLi are going to waist 1+ years to put in a second card. I'm speaking for myself of course, but if I were to get SLi and a 6800GT, the second one would be the very next upgrade to the system. Might take two months tops. Then in 2+ years I sell them both and buy one new state of the art card.

2. I am only considering SLi becuase I cant find any bloody Ultras, either at all, or for much less than Sli.

3. The Ultra to SLi is great and all, and it really made me lean twords ultra, but the thing is, its not full Sli. 4xpcie is a bottleneck, and if Im going to ever do full on two cards, I want no bottleneck, especially if SLi isnt going to cost more than ~$30 of Ultra.

4. Not saying its untrue, but I have seen nothing to state that games have to be profiled or they wont work in SLi.

5. No Sli + 2 6800GTs does not justify the prefomance, but buaght over time (2 months or so) it may, and the value will hold to at least half before 2007. That should be enough for, as I said in point #1 and new high preformance card.

IN reply to #4, there's a webpage that lists games that are compatible in SLi mode... so some games do... others don't... it's a fact...

but most of the more popular ones like HL2, doom3, UT2k4, etc are supported

 

[LTC8K6]

Sigh.... Search for my multiple posts regarding the power requirements for SLI. I even said that in my post.

I know all about the power requirements for SLI. No need to look.

I sigh a lot about SLI too..... whenever I look around the boards at the various threads about it.

 

[Vedder323]

Originally posted by: friedrice
First off, I am not completely bashing SLI. It's a good idea. But at the present moment, it isn't worth it. Also to note, all my prices come from www.newegg.com

The motherboards I am comparing are the MSI K8N Neo 4 Plat with the nForce 4 Ultra and the Gigabyte GA-K8NXP-SLI nForce4 SLI. The Neo is found at $169 whereas the Gigabyte is $215 A $46 price difference right off the bat.

The only card that would make sense to do SLI is the Geforce 6800 GT, which can be found at $394. Two of these will make the price $788. So, you would be paying $563 for the Neo board and 1 geforce 6800 and $1003 for the SLI board.

Now, I do not have links on me, but I have read several sites, Anandtech included, that SLI is good for upgrades. So let's think about this. A Geforce 6800 GT is going to last a good 1-2 years. Now think back 2 years ago, to the year 2003. According to http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=1608&p=9 , this the era of the Geforce 4. Going along with the fact that you prolly got the best card, the Geforce 4 TI 4600, I will assume this is what you have. Now, imagine if the Geforce4 had SLI. Now fast forward to today. You have a Geforce 4 TI 4600, and you want to upgrade. Are you going to buy another DirectX 8 Geforce 4 card. Let's assume you wanted to upgrade sooner.

Case in point, a lot changes over a year or 2. New technology such as the a new DirectX version.

This has been viewing it from a price perspective. Now let's look at the true scam.

There is no reason in the world why the Neo4 can not do SLI. It has one 16X PCI express and 1 4X PCI express. This is only limited by the fact that nVidia wants to milk out as much money as possible. Also to go farther on that, it seems silly that the same video card chipset must be used. I am not an expert in the area, but I see no reason why a 6600GT and a 6800GT can not be in SLI. The drivers can control how much to send to each card, as to not overload it.

To add more to this, it has been found that a DFI nForce4 ultra board can be changed to a SLI board though a hack. This proves the point that there is really no difference between it, only price.

As if that weren't enough, SLI only works in support games, which is very limited to just the most of the most popular games.

What nVidia can do to fix this:
Firstly, I believe more time needs to be put into developing it. It seems silly that each single game must be supported. It also seems silly that the exact same video chipset must be used. If I could pair a 6800 GT with a Geforce 8, I would be all for SLI.
It also seems very odd that the Ultra can be tricked into a SLI board, thus making it no reason to get an SLI board other then nVidia will shake it's finger at you.

Benchmark wise, the bonus of SLI just doesn't justify the cost. Save the $400 bucks and toss out the Geforce 6800 GT and buy a Geforce7 GT with it when the card comes out. Your single Geforce7 will smoke anyone with SLI Geforce 6800 GT.

This article is more to bring awareness to readers. I have yet to really see a website say anything negative about SLI, or really look at the big picture of it. I imagine if ATI decides to enter this market, things will heat up. After all, competition is good.

I dont care what is out in 2-3 years... I only want the bragging rights to say im running HL2 1600x1200 4AA 16AF at 1-200 FPS. Is that worth the price I paid??? ABSOFRIGGINLUTELY!

 

[Nanobaud]

As much as the gamers seem to be claiming to be a niche community, I would like to thank you all for looking big enough so NVidia et. al. to this SLI technology avialable and affordable for an even smaller enthusiast group. I bought a $200 SLI MB and am building up a system that I have no intent of ever running in 'SLI' mode (well, maybe just to try it out on a demo or something). If I could spring for two 6800-GT/Ultra cards, I would instead go for a Quadro 3400. Now for much less, I can have two independent 6600GT cards (haven't added the second one yet, but doesn't appear to be a problem) each with PCIe-8x doing most of what I wanted the Quadro to do, and in some cases better. The 6600's seem to run Gelato and NVidia-SDK programs just fine. Also, with the PVP I would imagine we will soon see (or lacking that, write) some good video codecs to run on the GPU which will make dual PCIe-8x grpahics cards yet more interesting. BTW- Another advantage of not having the Quadro, It's a bit easier to resist spending all my time figuring out how many decades I'd have to live on Ramen Noodles if I got that 30" Apple Cinema display...

nBd

 

[maverik007]

Sli is not all about bragging rights or like an extension to ones manhood.

Sli is driver supported not game support, if it's directx9 then it will support Sli in some way shape or form, the level of improvement varies on the depth of directX9 in a game, HL2 for example is less reliant on DirectX9 than doom3, so future games that use the HL2 engine will enjoy (or not) the same level of Sli improvement (until a driver update forces additonal performance enhancing measures).

I like Sli, it cost around the same as a good NF3 mobo, has SATA300, dual gigabit lan, full raid set-up with 8x SATA inputs, IEEE1394, 8 USB2 ports, 7.1 sound plus PCI-E. Sooner or later we will all want PCI-E graphics, this is another upgrade path that if you are a gamer, will be unavoidable. PCI-E is the next big thing - this board makes that upgrade more palletable as it adds a host of features never seen before in skt939. In summary it's a feature rich motherboard with 2 graphics card slots, which gives you the best performance in 3d gaming a, a high end board with extra features for those who want it.

Lets not forget that we upgrade our graphics cards more often than CPU or motherboard, this way you dont have to throw it away you just add another giving you high end performance for longer on a better budget.

Who really cares if they use 2 graphics cards or not, at least the option is there and you can spread the upgrade cost (ie you dont need Sli straight away) you can upgrade critical components first and get the 2nd VGA card later.

The next generation Geforce cards will be Sli compatable, will have upto 512MB on texture RAM onboard and will perform well (I have no doubt).

MY PREDICTION IS THAT WITHIN 18MONTHS WE WILL SEE 2x DUAL CORE GPU, THEN 6 MONTHS AFTER THAT IN SLI - LOW POWER CONSUMPTION, HIGH PERFORMANCE FEATURE RICH WITH 1GB OF TEXTURE RAM (2X512MB).

I READ PEOPLE MOANING ABOUT HAVING TO UPGRADE THEIR PSU - THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF A SYSTEM - SHAME ON YOU SKIMPING IN THE FIRST PLACE ON THE ONE ITEM THAT CAN EFFECT THE STABILITY OF THE WHOLE SYSTEM - THERMALTAKE DO A GREAT RANGE OF 480w AND UPWARDS PSU'S THAT ARE GREAT VALUE FOR MONEY - I SUGGEST THE 680w VERSION FOR ONLY £68. PEOPLE WITH HIGH END PRESCOTT CPU'S AND FX5950 ULTRAS ALREADY KNOW THE BENEFITS OF A GOOD PSU.

THEN I HAVE TO SAY - THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL THINK IT ALL A BIT OVER THE TOP - NOT INTERESTED IN OVERCLOCKING OR GAMING AND ARE HAPPY WITH WHAT THEY HAVE, YOU DONT HEAR THESE PEOPLE GETTING ON THEIR SOAP BOX.

PEOPLE SHOULD BE MORE WORRIED ABOUT BTX, RATHER THAN SLI - THE BIGGEST UPGRADE NOBODY WANTS., BUT SONER OR LATER WE WILL ALL BE THERE some will complain about having to change from 20pin ATX PSU to BTX 24pin PSU - Some will complain about the PSU and the fact the upgrade does nothing except satisfy Intel's thermal requirements!!!

Sli is not controversial, I can't remember the last time someone moaned that a motherboard had too many network cards - too many USB2 ports (I know I dont need 8) - I don't need firewire etc - it's got 7.1 sound but I only have 2 speakers'.... fact is there are lots of features on our boards that we do not use, but we don't moan, we think 'I might need that one day' or 'it's good to have 8 USB ports, just in case' all these things are directly comparable to SLi.

At the price they are selling for in the UK Sli is a nice feature - you chose if you want to use it or not

DONT SUBJECT A MOTHERBOARD FOR CRITICISM JUST COZ IT HAS A FEATURE YOU DON'T NEED (YET).

PLUS THE A8N-SLI IS THE FASTEST SELLING MOTHERBOARD IN THE UK, OUT SELLING OTHERS BY 3:1.

NICHE? Mainstream is more like it.

 

[imported_PanicAttack]

I agree with the person that said it's not really that much more for an SLI. For most it's not a deal breaker. What kind a made me decide against SLI though was what 2 different people pointed out about the upgrading your vid card path.
One person pointed out that if you only upgrade every year or so then there is bound to be a new card out there with the latest shader support etc. so why buy a second old-tech card when you can get the latest and greatest which will probably perform as well if not better than the 2 old cards. That said, I agree with the person that talked about upgrading in a couple of months or so or even up to a year, then SLI makes more sense. I fall into the former not the latter catagory.
Also, after seeing the list of supported games, how will they adquately support as many games that will be coming out soon. Does anyone know if they have posted a list of future games they intend to support?