[slashgear]Apple brings metal to osx

[Glo.]

Yes, it has been confirmed by AMD itself.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Yes, it has been confirmed by AMD itself.

You way overread that slide. AMD just says they lead the innovation, not that its based on anything specific.

 

[greatnoob]

Adobe currently runs on OpenGL... it would be easier to port to Vulkan (which uses the same GLSL shader language as OpenGL) than to port to Metal.

And Metal != Mantle, we have no confirmation of that yet... while we have confirmation that Vulkan is a direct evolution of Vulkan.

Shader language is just that, shader language. They are all identical, you could have no idea what HLSL is yet be able to learn it on the fly in < 5 minutes if you actually know what you're doing (I.e., you are a developer). I've been able to rewrite my shaders in my games to and from multiple engines in less than an hour and that's just me.

GLSL, HLSL and Metal's shader language are all the same. They are high level and written in C-like syntax. IF you said something like AGAL which is pretty much low level assembly you'd have a small point, but even then the time to learn that would be less than an hour.

You saying it is easier to port to Vulkan on the basis of something so small and irrelevant as shader languages (that are the same to a developer) shows me you are making your argument with no knowledge of what we game devs actually do.

 

[Rakehellion]

It looks like AMD will have to start making drivers for Metal ...

Apple makes Metal which runs on top of the drivers which are also made by Apple.

 

[Rakehellion]

Adobe currently runs on OpenGL... it would be easier to port to Vulkan (which uses the same GLSL shader language as OpenGL) than to port to Metal.

You'd still have to rewrite your shaders as well as application code to take advantage of new features.

 

[flopper]

Shader language is just that, shader language. They are all identical, you could have no idea what HLSL is yet be able to learn it on the fly in < 5 minutes if you actually know what you're doing (I.e., you are a developer). I've been able to rewrite my shaders in my games to and from multiple engines in less than an hour and that's just me.

GLSL, HLSL and Metal's shader language are all the same. They are high level and written in C-like syntax. IF you said something like AGAL which is pretty much low level assembly you'd have a small point, but even then the time to learn that would be less than an hour.

You saying it is easier to port to Vulkan on the basis of something so small and irrelevant as shader languages (that are the same to a developer) shows me you are making your argument with no knowledge of what we game devs actually do.

Its Internet anyone here is an expert on stuff they dont know anything about.

 

[Rakehellion]

Oh well done Apple, you were this close to easily being able to get ported games (with Vulkan supporting Windows, SteamOS and potentially OS X). Instead you shot yourselves in the foot with more proprietary bullshit. Enjoy your ports of Flappy Bird clones

Y u mad?

-Most games are written with Direct3D anyway
-The Unreal Engine is already on Mac
-There's also a port of Direct 3D for Mac


The graphics API isn't the hard part of making a port.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Yes, it has been confirmed by AMD itself.

Let's add to the beginning of that slide: Microsoft begins development of XBox 1 and custom version of DirectX (which already has all the benefits of DX12.)

Then after that:
Microsoft releases XBox 1 and said custom version of DirectX. Both before Mantle was released.

:whiste:

Absolutely sick of people running around as if Mantle was the first to the game. AMD worked with MS on the XB1...but you don't see me running around yelling that they stole it from MS.

 

[Rakehellion]

conspiracy theory: Maybe this was why apple decided to use alot of AMD this refresh cycle?

Metal supports computer shaders which AMD is faster at, but Nvidia is a better option in pretty much every way for gaming.

 

[Rakehellion]

Absolutely sick of people running around as if Mantle was the first to the game.

It doesn't matter who was the first. Eventually everyone gets it.

 

[Glo.]

And where do I say that Mantle was first to the game?

 

[Atreidin]

APIs on consoles I don't own don't affect me. I only care about advancements on PCs.

 

[stuff_me_good]

Let's add to the beginning of that slide: Microsoft begins development of XBox 1 and custom version of DirectX (which already has all the benefits of DX12.)

Then after that:
Microsoft releases XBox 1 and said custom version of DirectX. Both before Mantle was released.

:whiste:

Absolutely sick of people running around as if Mantle was the first to the game. AMD worked with MS on the XB1...but you don't see me running around yelling that they stole it from MS.

That's because you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Stuka87]

So according to Apple Metal for OSX 10.11 uses a combination of OpenCL and OpenGL. This would lead me to think that it is using Vulcan. It seems unlikely that they would write their own low level API to use with OpenGL when OpenGL already has one. And I know its not out yet, but OSX 10.11 wont be out till the fall anyway.

EDIT: This also makes more sense as to the switch to AMD. If Metal is using OpenCL 2.0 (Which it likely is) Macs would need AMD or Intel GPU's to use it. nVidia does not support OpenCL 2.0 (They just started to support 1.2 which AMD supported years ago).

 

[bystander36]

That's your interpretation. The draw calls "could" be there's. I'm only guessing as I know it's a metric that Mantle and the other API's, 10X the draw calls, tout. I think it's a legit metric. It's like saying a driver offers up to 60% performance increase because you've included a multi GPU profile for a game that didn't have one before. Companies do this all of the time.

All I can say is I'm happy that other OS's besides Windows are being serious about improving rendering efficiency. I model in Cinema 4D and use PS. IF they get a Metal rendering path and not Vulkan it might give me an option for dramatically improved performance that I wouldn't get otherwise. Or it might force them to update the OpenGL rendering path to Vulkan to offer similar performance for their Windows customers (Me!).

It does say gaming performance. That should mean it has to do with gaming. Draw calls has pretty much nothing to do with gaming and everything to do with an internal working of a game engine.

I know what they mean, but they most certainly are over hyping it by being misleading on their words.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Absolutely sick of people running around as if Mantle was the first to the game. AMD worked with MS on the XB1...but you don't see me running around yelling that they stole it from MS.

Are you saying Mantle is actually stolen code from the XB1 API? And if so, then that code ended up as Vulkan etc. so you are saying Microsoft let this happen.

 

[bystander36]

It would make sense that Mantle's structure is designed around Xbox1 or PS4's way of doing things, as it was a joint effort with dev's and AMD and the dev's would want it to work as close to the consoles as possible. AMD's contribution would be making that structure work on their GPU's with that thin layer they talk about.

 

[at80eighty]

Vulkan is a direct evolution of Vulkan.

mantle?

 

[krumme]

mantle?

Yes mantle

 

[RampantAndroid]

Are you saying Mantle is actually stolen code from the XB1 API? And if so, then that code ended up as Vulkan etc. so you are saying Microsoft let this happen.

I am not saying this. I'm trying to point out that the people running around screaming that the opposite has happened have no clue what they're talking about.

I really don't know what the collaboration between AMD and MSFT was (or how far it reached. Did AMD have a hand in the software? How much code did they see, or designs?)

 

[coercitiv]

Absolutely sick of people running around as if Mantle was the first to the game.

I really don't know what the collaboration between AMD and MSFT was

So based on the fact you don't know anything you are absolutely sick of people stating otherwise. Fair enough.

 

[Glo.]

I am not saying this. I'm trying to point out that the people running around screaming that the opposite has happened have no clue what they're talking about.

I really don't know what the collaboration between AMD and MSFT was (or how far it reached. Did AMD have a hand in the software? How much code did they see, or designs?)

Maybe you simply have no idea what they are saying? Have you thought about it, ever?

Of course MS was doing high level libraries for DirectX 12.

But functional core base(low-level) for every modern API(DirectX, Metal, Vulkan) is Mantle itself. That is the difference. Mantle defines only how those APIs work. Everything else is built on top of it.

Look at Metal. Its CUDA and DirectX ideas in one thing. And this is where the revolution in OSX begin, IMO.

 

[RampantAndroid]

So based on the fact you don't know anything you are absolutely sick of people stating otherwise. Fair enough.

Yes, because John Smith over there DOES know? I'm making a *very* simple point: THEY don't know. NO ONE other than the people directly involved really know. It's moronic to sit here and scream "APPLE AND MICROSOFT COPIED PRECIOUS MANTLE!" as if it were the gospel truth as some seem to put it.

Maybe you simply have no idea what they are saying? Have you thought about it, ever?

People have said in *very* clear words that MS copied AMD. Do I really need to go dig this up?

 

[3DVagabond]

It does say gaming performance. That should mean it has to do with gaming. Draw calls has pretty much nothing to do with gaming and everything to do with an internal working of a game engine.

I know what they mean, but they most certainly are over hyping it by being misleading on their words.

Sorry, I have to disagree, YMMV.

 

[3DVagabond]

I am not saying this. I'm trying to point out that the people running around screaming that the opposite has happened have no clue what they're talking about.

I really don't know what the collaboration between AMD and MSFT was (or how far it reached. Did AMD have a hand in the software? How much code did they see, or designs?)

Have you seen this? they are the same.

Now, AMD has already stated they shared all of their work on Mantle with msft. Has msft said the same? Do you really see msft letting AMD take DX12 and not only develop their own API, Mantle, but share DX12 all around for anyone and everyone who wants to write their own competing API's? Do you think Khronos would credit and thank AMD for giving them Mantle to use as the base for Vulkan if it was really msft's DX12 code? With everything msft has put into Windows being the dominant gaming platform do you think they would just let AMD usurp DX12 and create multiple competitors for DX's dominance? It makes sense that AMD gave msft the same thing they gave everyone else as not to have msft feel that AMD has put them in a position to be passed by Khronos. They could really hurt AMD by pulling stunts to cripple their performance with DX.