since intel and amd cross license from each other, why dont amd have hyperthreading?

[jjyiz28]

intel got 64bit extension, amd got mmx, sse, etc.. but how bout HT?

 

[Kell]

There's some debate about exactly how helpful hyperthreading would be for AMD.

With only a single thread running, a lot of components in the P4 just sit and spin their wheels. Running multiple threads via HyperThreading puts those components to good use without severely penalizing other components.

Athlons (including Athlon64) don't share that characteristic. An Athlon64 generally has most of its components well-utilized with only a single active thread. Trying to implement HyperThreading under those circumstances would probably hurt performance more than it would help.

Don't expect to see HyperThreading from AMD anytime soon. Expect to see multicore Athlon64's instead.

 

[Accord99]

Just because you have access to the patents doesn't mean you can build it; It took Intel years and unknown man-hours and dollars of development and (proabably even more important) testing to ensure that it works. Though once it does works, then HT only adds a small cost to the CPU core.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: Accord99
Just because you have access to the patents doesn't mean you can build it; It took Intel years and unknown man-hours and dollars of development and (proabably even more important) testing to ensure that it works. Though once it does works, then HT only adds a small cost to the CPU core.

HT has been in every P4 since the Northwood core. So it adds zero cost in terms of wafer.

 

[Ken90630]

Anyone know of a list of applications architected to make use of Hyper-Threading? I know Adobe Photoshop CS is, but that's the only one I know of. I keep reading, in various places, about how "more and more applications are being optimized for H-T," yet my inquiries to Intel and in a couple other threads on this forum have yielded zero in the way of specific names of any such optimized/architected apps.

Why this is such a secret is beyond me (unless Intel expected a bunch of software mfgrs to jump on but they never did or something). Anyone? Hello? Does any actual list exist? Even some obscure apps that almost no one really uses? Anything?!!!



Ken

PS: Yes, I know that multi-tasking with H-T will result in an overall speed benefit even if the apps aren't specifically architected for H-T, but that doesn't address the other issue of single-threaded apps (Photoshops CS, for example) running faster if architected for H-T. That's what I'm interested in with this post -- a list of those apps.

 

[wkabel23]

Originally posted by: Ken90630
Anyone know of a list of applications architected to make use of Hyper-Threading? I know Adobe Photoshop CS is, but that's the only one I know of. I keep reading, in various places, about how "more and more applications are being optimized for H-T," yet my inquiries to Intel and in a couple other threads on this forum have yielded zero in the way of specific names of any such optimized/architected apps.

Why this is such a secret is beyond me (unless Intel expected a bunch of software mfgrs to jump on but they never did or something). Anyone? Hello? Does any actual list exist? Even some obscure apps that almost no one really uses? Anything?!!!



Ken

PS: Yes, I know that multi-tasking with H-T will result in an overall speed benefit even if the apps aren't specifically architected for H-T, but that doesn't address the other issue of single-threaded apps (Photoshops CS, for example) running faster if architected for H-T. That's what I'm interested in with this post -- a list of those apps.

Stickied post at the very top of this forum..

 

[Sahakiel]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: Accord99
Just because you have access to the patents doesn't mean you can build it; It took Intel years and unknown man-hours and dollars of development and (proabably even more important) testing to ensure that it works. Though once it does works, then HT only adds a small cost to the CPU core.

HT has been in every P4 since the Northwood core. So it adds zero cost in terms of wafer.

HT adds about 5% to the used die space. That's 5% of about 100M transistors. That 5% could have gone to, say, better branch prediction, larger trace cache, better MP support, 64-bit extensions, or other attributes. To say HT adds zero cost in terms of wafer is like saying AMD64 adds zero cost to the Hammer die size.
HT alone was also responsible for an extra 1-2 years development time. Despite all that, it wasn't ready until, what, over a year after Pentium 4 introduction?

As for AMD, it doesn't have the need or the resources to implement HyperThreading. HT was developed for P4 because about 50% of the execution resources were found idle during testing. AMD's architectures dont have nearly the same number of instructions in flight. AMD also doesn't have enough engineers and the money required to develop HT in a reasonable amount of time. Personally, I'd be surprised to see SMT on K8 but the next core might have a glimmer of promise at this point.

 

[Ken90630]

Thanks, Wkabel,

Yeah, I saw Duvie's post at the top of the forum, but that's still not quite what I'm looking for. I was hoping someone might know a link (or magazine reference) to an actual comprehensive list of H-T architected apps that someone has put together.

Duv's benchmarks are obviously exhaustive and appear to be painstakingly done, but most of his stuff looks like media-encoding types of apps, which I personally don't have much of a need for (at least not at this time). Plus, he's running them in a multi-tasking environment. I'm still looking for a list of apps that are optimized/architected to run faster even when NOT multi-tasking (like Adobe Photoshop CS).

Still searching ... waiting ... hoping ... Anyone? Forum moderator? Folks at Intel who want us to give them our money for H-T but can't or won't give us a specific list of the "more and more applications" that are supposedly being "optimized for H-T"? Anyone?!!

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: Ken90630
Thanks, Wkabel,

Yeah, I saw Duvie's post at the top of the forum, but that's still not quite what I'm looking for. I was hoping someone might know a link (or magazine reference) to an actual comprehensive list of H-T architected apps that someone has put together.

Duv's benchmarks are obviously exhaustive and appear to be painstakingly done, but most of his stuff looks like media-encoding types of apps, which I personally don't have much of a need for (at least not at this time). Plus, he's running them in a multi-tasking environment. I'm still looking for a list of apps that are optimized/architected to run faster even when NOT multi-tasking (like Adobe Photoshop CS).

Still searching ... waiting ... hoping ... Anyone? Forum moderator? Folks at Intel who want us to give them our money for H-T but can't or won't give us a specific list of the "more and more applications" that are supposedly being "optimized for H-T"? Anyone?!!

Why do you even care? How about you give us a list of the software that you use, and if any of it is HT-optimized, then someone will tell you.

 

[Ken90630]

Yeah, that's the way business should be done by a multi-million corporation like Intel. Each and every person trying to decide whether they should get a P4 with or without H-T should notify Intel of the apps they're using, then Intel should reply to each person regarding whether or not H-T is optimized for each of those apps. Brilliant.

Intel states on their Web site, and I quote, "The Pentium 4 Processor with HT Technology is available in a variety of frequencies ... all delivering improved system performance in multi-tasking environments and allowing you to configure a system that best suits your requirements." They also state, "Also, multithreaded applications developed specifically to exploit Hyper-Threading Technology will benefit, whether you're multi-tasking or not."

I care because I simply want to "configure a system that best suits" my requirements -- both for today and the foreseeable future. Right now all I'm using is MS Office and the Adobe Creative Suite, plus some security software. But I may return to school in the near future and want to use some musician-oriented music software and/or some graphic design applications. It would be nice to know if there's any such software out there that is in fact optimized for H-T, because then I might want to get a H-T chip & compatible mobo now so that I won't have to spend extra $$ to upgrade everything if I decide later that I'd like to have H-T.

I also care because I don't do any pure multi-tasking, at least not enough to matter, but I am going to be using Photoshop CS and it HAS been "developed specifically to exploit Hyper-Threading Technology." All I'm looking for a list of apps like this. What is so unreasonable about this?

There's also the issue of another thread I started a couple months ago regarding reports of certain applications actually being SLOWED down by a H-T chip. That thread went on forever, and included some exhaustive discussion about H-T technology. That's also a consideration in my buying decision, for what should be obvious reasons.

Gosh, this has become more trouble than it's worth. I'm sorry if anyone took offense at my earlier post, which was meant to convey, in a tongue-in-cheek manner and with a bit of sarcasm, my mild frustration at Intel (not the Anandtech.com community). I merely posted a question BECAUSE I thought that with the vast sea of knowledge & experience available here, someone might actually know of a list of H-T optimized apps. I've often been blown away by some of the links and references that get posted on these forums -- things I'd never have the time to hunt down myself.

If the list I'd like to see doesn't exist, then so be it. Was just asking.

Ken

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: Ken90630
Yeah, that's the way business should be done by a multi-million corporation like Intel. Each and every person trying to decide whether they should get a P4 with or without H-T should notify Intel of the apps they're using, then Intel should reply to each person regarding whether or not H-T is optimized for each of those apps. Brilliant.

Intel states on their Web site, and I quote, "The Pentium 4 Processor with HT Technology is available in a variety of frequencies ... all delivering improved system performance in multi-tasking environments and allowing you to configure a system that best suits your requirements." They also state, "Also, multithreaded applications developed specifically to exploit Hyper-Threading Technology will benefit, whether you're multi-tasking or not."

I care because I simply want to "configure a system that best suits" my requirements -- both for today and the foreseeable future. Right now all I'm using is MS Office and the Adobe Creative Suite, plus some security software. But I may return to school in the near future and want to use some musician-oriented music software and/or some graphic design applications. It would be nice to know if there's any such software out there that is in fact optimized for H-T, because then I might want to get a H-T chip & compatible mobo now so that I won't have to spend extra $$ to upgrade everything if I decide later that I'd like to have H-T.

I also care because I don't do any pure multi-tasking, at least not enough to matter, but I am going to be using Photoshop CS and it HAS been "developed specifically to exploit Hyper-Threading Technology." All I'm looking for a list of apps like this. What is so unreasonable about this?

There's also the issue of another thread I started a couple months ago regarding reports of certain applications actually being SLOWED down by a H-T chip. That thread went on forever, and included some exhaustive discussion about H-T technology. That's also a consideration in my buying decision, for what should be obvious reasons.

Good grief. This is far more trouble than it's worth. I'm sorry if anyone took offense at my earlier post, which was meant to convey, in a tongue-in-cheek manner, my mild frustration at Intel (not the Anandtech.com community). I merely posted a question BECAUSE I thought that with the incredible sea of knowledge & experience available here, someone might actually know of a list of H-T optimized apps. If no such list exists, then case closed.

Ken

Oh, so you're just one of those panzies like my girlfriend who isn't happy unless she has something to bitch about. That about it? WE aren't Intel, moron. WE don't owe you anything. IF you would like to find out whether any/all of the apps you use are HT-enabled, maybe you'll take my advice from my last post. If not, please stop posting in this thread.

 

[Ken90630]

Wow, have you got some problems. "Panzy" and "moron"? When did I ever say you or anyone at Anandtech.com OWES me anything? I challenge you to back up your childish attack with facts.

And if you'll read my post again, you'll see that I did in fact "take your advice" regarding the apps I use and might use. Oh, and I'll post to this thread as much as I please, and it is not subject to your approval.

You're taking offense when none was ever meant (or implied). I'm obviously not going to be able to convince you of that though, so I won't waste any more time trying. You might consider some anger-management counseling.

Ken

PS: I did edit my post slightly after the original one that you replied to. You replied before my changes were posted (if it matters).

 

[myocardia]

Yes, you did change your post, and this time I read it from start to finish (I must admit, I got bored halfway through on the first try). Sorry about the name-calling, that was nothing more than frustration on my part. Anyway, if such a list exists, I have never heard of it, nor has it been posted as a link here in at least the last 6 months or so. People who actually care if the software they are using supports HT, just found out whether it does before they buy the next version. Most people who have a P4C wouldn't trade it for all of the Athlons and A64's in the world, so HTing is obviously adding something to their computing experience. Oh, lastly, there is at least one music editing software that supports HT, and nearly every CAD/graphics application does now.

 

[Ken90630]

Fair enough. Now we're making a little progress. I propose a truce.

I'll even let the remark about my post being boring slide since I will admit I do tend to post long messages sometimes. I just do so because I'm trying to include everything at once so the thread doesn't go on forever with questions & replies about specifics. Throwing all the specifics into one post at the beginning helps with this, but it I suppose it does make for longer posts and more tedious reading for others. I'll try to shorten my posts from now on.

I just wanna reiterate that my mild frustration is not directed at anyone in particular (except maybe Intel) -- I just thought someone out there might have had the type of list I'm looking for, and the difficulty finding one was becoming comical to me. That's all. And I have no particular allegiance to any chip maker. I'm not a "fanboy" for any company, nor do I have any significant dislike for any of them. I'm just looking for the right chip for me and my needs.

I propose we put this topic to rest. (Cue the other readers saying, "Amen!")

Ken

 

[saechaka]

interesting. most people would choose hyperthreading over 64bit, when they've already have a ht machine. lets keep this thread going

 

[jjyiz28]

ken y dont u just makea new thread asking with apps are targeted for HT

 

[Ken90630]

I might, but I'm a bit shell-shocked now to be honest. The subject came up last month in another thread I started, but it had more to do with names of specific apps supposedly being SLOWED DOWN by H-T, and it morphed into other aspects of H-T during the give & take from everyone. Was a great thread, but it went on forever. (If you think my posts on this thread were long, you should see the others by me, Duvie, Chris Shephard, et al. on that one.) No one knew of an actual list of H-T architected apps, or slowed-down apps, on that thread either -- I actually just brought it up again in this latest thread since there was a different group of guys on this one. Somehow someone got the idea I was demanding a list from Anandtech.com members or something, which of course I was not (that wouldn't even make sense). Oh well, chalk it up to another case of cyber communication getting misconstrued.

In a roundabout way, I now have the info I need anyway even without a list. I'm done with this subject. Sorry your thread got sidetracked in this way. If you wanna start another, I promise I'll stay away.

Ken

 

[ntrights]

Ken90630

The real benifit of HT is seen when you run several apps at the same time not a singel one.

This is actually the hardest test, as we have Norton AntiVirus software running in the background and the whole bunch of office applications, such as Microsoft Excel, Microsoft Project, Microsoft Access, Microsoft PowerPoint, Microsoft FrontPage and WinZip. And only in this case Intel processors supporting Hyper-Threading manage to defeat AMD competitors and become indisputable winners. This way, it is evident that AMD Athlon 64 processors can easily cope with simple multi-threaded tasks. However, when it comes to more serious workloads, Hyper-Threading technology proves highly efficient.
Business Winstone 2004 Multitasking Test 3

 

[alent1234]

i doubt hyper threading is good for anything other than photo or video editing on the workstation level. Servers is another story and it's useful there. At work I have a P3 with 512MB RAM and CPU usage rarely goes above 10%. More RAM is useful in an office enviroment.

 

[Ken90630]

Ntrights:

Yeah, I agree. That appears to be the case. When Intel says on their Web site that, " ... multithreaded applications developed specifically to exploit Hyper-Threading Technology will benefit, whether you're multi-tasking or not," that's all well and good for things like Photoshop CS. But the conclusion I've drawn after all this research is that there simply aren't many apps architected to utilize H-T, in a non-multitasking environment, in the way that Photoshop CS is (even though Intel kind of implies there are). If there were, you can bet Intel would compile a list of such apps and use it as a selling tool for H-T chips (justifiably so). I'm not bashing Intel at all -- I just think this particular subject could be explained a bit more accurately on their Web site and in their marketing.

Since my earlier research didn't turn up any significant evidence of my apps being slowed down by H-T, I intend to get an H-T chip anyway. Shouldn't slow down my Office or Adobe apps, and it will speed up Photoshop CS when applying digital filters. Of course, I do need to crunch the $$ numbers on the mobo & chipset that will support H-T and see how much price difference there will be before I buy, but I'm leaning towards H-T.

OK, now I'm really done with this subject. And thanks for the link.

 

[pspada]

I suspect that most, if not all, of the apps that support HT do so because Intel paid those companies to do the extra development necessary. A smart move on Intel's part, since otherwise there might be no benefit at all to the highly hyped HT. I believe that they had to do this to get anyone to write apps for the now obsolete I-lame-ium chips.