Simplest Virtual Machine?

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Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
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Somewhere (where, exactly, I can't tell you right off hand), I do have a patched version of Win98SE in a VM that supported 512MB of memory and also that runs Firefox 8 and Opera 11. God only knows what a modern virus would make of THAT mess of an OS.... ;)

Most likely a blue screen, and something-something about not being able to run on Win9x. :D

But then, 95/98/ME managed bluescreens fine on their own. So I doubt anyone would notice... ;)
 
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Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
50,054
6,337
136
In VMware for Windows, you can run DirectX (v9 & lower) under XP & 2000:


Pretty easy:

1. Update your host OS to the latest graphics drivers (AMD/NVIDIA)
2. Install XP as a Guest OS & activate it
3. Turn on Hardware Acceleration in XP
4. Enable 3D Graphics in VMware for that Guest OS (i.e. the settings for the VM)
5. Make sure the latest version of VMware Tools is installed
6. Install the DirectX 9.0c End User Runtime to the Guest OS: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=34429

A few hoops to jump through, but then you get an accelerated VM for your old games!
 

tinpanalley

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2011
1,496
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In VMware for Windows, you can run DirectX (v9 & lower) under XP & 2000:


Pretty easy:

1. Update your host OS to the latest graphics drivers (AMD/NVIDIA)
2. Install XP as a Guest OS & activate it
3. Turn on Hardware Acceleration in XP
4. Enable 3D Graphics in VMware for that Guest OS (i.e. the settings for the VM)
5. Make sure the latest version of VMware Tools is installed
6. Install the DirectX 9.0c End User Runtime to the Guest OS: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=34429

A few hoops to jump through, but then you get an accelerated VM for your old games!
Really?? And this works? All I need is a copy of Windows XP then.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
50,054
6,337
136
Really?? And this works? All I need is a copy of Windows XP then.

Just remember that XP has a RAM limit by default, so I just set it to 3 gigs of RAM in the VM (there are some tricks for getting it higher, but for a VM gaming setup..meh).
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,754
599
126
Vmware's paravirtual GPU is pretty badass honestly. Its like 10+ years old at this point and none of the other virtualization platforms have cooked up anything close, which is kind of shocking. I think virtualbox has some simple 2D acceleration.

It even seemed to work on a linux host for me, and they give this away with the free player and ESXi. Unfortunately it seemed like not much development was going on with their "workstation" line the last time I played with it.

As a professional luddite I didn't really run XP 32-bit ever. I ran 2000 instead, never had any software compatibility issues and I played games a lot more back then. I remember it fondly as my favorite version of Windows. I switched to XP-64 for a bit to use 4GB of ram before moving on to 7.
 
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Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
50,054
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Vmware's paravirtual GPU

What I'm hoping they'll do eventually is allow for GPU passthrough on desktop clients like VMware Workstation Pro. vSphere (server version of VMware) already does it, as does unRAID & others, but it'd be super-cool to have a second GPU & be able to tie it into a VM. So many scenarios:

1. Grab a cheap spare card for older 98 & XP games
2. Have a workstation Quadro GPU in for business stuff & a dedicated VM for gaming with like a GeForce GTX card
3. Have a family multi-player setup so say the parent could have a dedicated gaming rig & the kiddos could play on a Steam thin client on the living room TV
4. Use the dual CPU-integrated GPU (i.e. Intel or Ryzen) & then a dedicated GPU, so if you want to switch from playing local Steam to virtualized vintage games, you could run the host off the iGPU & the VM off the dGPU. This would be particularly useful for laptops, which already have a built-in software-switching system for the iGPU & dGPU combo setup, so there wouldn't have to be a physical cable swap or anything in that case.

On the server side of things, this has been a bear for me. I started training on the updated stuff for Server 2019 just a week ago. Originally we had say a Terminal Server that would let you remote in. Then they added RemoteFX, so you could get like a multi-core, high-VRAM card like a GIRD card & split the power between users in remote sessions, so you could do video streaming & basic DCC work. Then they added GPU pass-through for dedicated GPU access on individual cards. There's also been PCoIP compression cards like Teradici offered & really great software solutions like HP's RGS system (not a perfect interface, but works awesome functionally!). Currently they're on NVIDIA vGPU software licensing for stuff like NVIDIA Quadro Virtual Data Center Workstation (Quadro vDWS).

And this is where it gets fun...on the latest Windows Server OS (2019), they removed the UI for RemoteFX vGPU setup from Hyper-V Manager, but you can still access it through Powershell, as long as you jump through a few hoops:

1. Make sure you have a RemoteFX-compatible GPU card
2. Install the Remote Desktop Virutalization Host role
3. Enable the Host GPU for RemoteFX vGPU
4. Add the RemoteFX vGPU to your VM
5. Configure the RemoteFX vGPU in the VM settings

I've been buying up used GRID & Tesla cards off eBay to test different scenarios with, as I have a lot of small-shop clients who are on a budget, need to do DCC, and have a lot of end users working at home & could really benefit from a non-insanely-priced & non-overly-complicated system setup. Companies are really pushing for custom server-side accelerated graphics due to COVID. HP took their awesome RGS software (which was originally for HP's only, then they started licensing it out - it's the same idea as a dedicated accelerator card for physical GPU's, just in software form) & made it into a centralized server solution called ZCentral:


So now you can pop some HP workstations (I mostly use the Mini's, which are absolutely amazing devices) into a special rack & have centralized management over accelerated remote access! There are a number of companies doing that for end-users through the cloud now (outside of the usual Amazon cloud servers & whatnot), such as ShadowPC:


They offer 3 tiers right now: a GTX1080 for $15/mo, RTX2080 for $30/mo, and Titan RTX for $50/mo. Pretty nice that you could spend $180 annually to have access to a GTX1080 gaming rig in the cloud on virtually every device you own, anywhere you feel like dialing in from, without having to spend hundreds or thousands on a dedicated gaming computer! Linus has done a couple projects like that on his channel for local gaming using unRAID & the Lime GPU virtualization system, which is pretty dang neat:


 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
50,054
6,337
136
What I'm hoping they'll do eventually is allow for GPU passthrough on desktop clients like VMware Workstation Pro. vSphere (server version of VMware) already does it, as does unRAID & others, but it'd be super-cool to have a second GPU & be able to tie it into a VM. So many scenarios:

1. Grab a cheap spare card for older 98 & XP games
2. Have a workstation Quadro GPU in for business stuff & a dedicated VM for gaming with like a GeForce GTX card
3. Have a family multi-player setup so say the parent could have a dedicated gaming rig & the kiddos could play on a Steam thin client on the living room TV
4. Use the dual CPU-integrated GPU (i.e. Intel or Ryzen) & then a dedicated GPU, so if you want to switch from playing local Steam to virtualized vintage games, you could run the host off the iGPU & the VM off the dGPU. This would be particularly useful for laptops, which already have a built-in software-switching system for the iGPU & dGPU combo setup, so there wouldn't have to be a physical cable swap or anything in that case.

On the server side of things, this has been a bear for me. I started training on the updated stuff for Server 2019 just a week ago. Originally we had say a Terminal Server that would let you remote in. Then they added RemoteFX, so you could get like a multi-core, high-VRAM card like a GIRD card & split the power between users in remote sessions, so you could do video streaming & basic DCC work. Then they added GPU pass-through for dedicated GPU access on individual cards. There's also been PCoIP compression cards like Teradici offered & really great software solutions like HP's RGS system (not a perfect interface, but works awesome functionally!). Currently they're on NVIDIA vGPU software licensing for stuff like NVIDIA Quadro Virtual Data Center Workstation (Quadro vDWS).

And this is where it gets fun...on the latest Windows Server OS (2019), they removed the UI for RemoteFX vGPU setup from Hyper-V Manager, but you can still access it through Powershell, as long as you jump through a few hoops:

1. Make sure you have a RemoteFX-compatible GPU card
2. Install the Remote Desktop Virutalization Host role
3. Enable the Host GPU for RemoteFX vGPU
4. Add the RemoteFX vGPU to your VM
5. Configure the RemoteFX vGPU in the VM settings

I've been buying up used GRID & Tesla cards off eBay to test different scenarios with, as I have a lot of small-shop clients who are on a budget, need to do DCC, and have a lot of end users working at home & could really benefit from a non-insanely-priced & non-overly-complicated system setup. Companies are really pushing for custom server-side accelerated graphics due to COVID. HP took their awesome RGS software (which was originally for HP's only, then they started licensing it out - it's the same idea as a dedicated accelerator card for physical GPU's, just in software form) & made it into a centralized server solution called ZCentral:


So now you can pop some HP workstations (I mostly use the Mini's, which are absolutely amazing devices) into a special rack & have centralized management over accelerated remote access! There are a number of companies doing that for end-users through the cloud now (outside of the usual Amazon cloud servers & whatnot), such as ShadowPC:


They offer 3 tiers right now: a GTX1080 for $15/mo, RTX2080 for $30/mo, and Titan RTX for $50/mo. Pretty nice that you could spend $180 annually to have access to a GTX1080 gaming rig in the cloud on virtually every device you own, anywhere you feel like dialing in from, without having to spend hundreds or thousands on a dedicated gaming computer! Linus has done a couple projects like that on his channel for local gaming using unRAID & the Lime GPU virtualization system, which is pretty dang neat:

I'd also like to see all of this simplified & unified:

1. Allow desktop clients (ex. VMware Workstation Pro) & server hosts (ex. Windows Server 2019) to easily virtualize both shared GPU's (ex. GRID & Tesla cards) & dedicated GPU's (ex. GeForce & Quadro cards)
2. Allow the integration & easy switching of iGPU & dGPU
3. Easily allow for app containers for GPU-driven apps (ex. App-V to run Steam-style)

I think it'd be awesome to buy say a Ryzen desktop (nice iGPU) with a GeForce card, be able to hop on a vintage-OS VM for old-school gaming, or virtualize a second dGPU using DDA to send to your cheapo living room TV, or have one home gaming PC act as a multi-access remote gaming server within the house. Admittedly, that'd probably be limited use for most people, but it'd still be awesome to have lol, especially since you can put Windows 10 (ARM) on a budget Raspberry Pi 3 or 4 SoC now!


Many, many companies are making the movie to remote accelerated graphics. We already have Steam, Xbox, and Playstation available with that technology, as well as online DaaS (Desktop-as-a-Service) companies like Paperspace. Even Microsoft is getting more serious about offering a Windows DaaS:


They're offering vGPU's as well:


That particular card is a monster - the Radeon Instinct for $10,000:


Paperspace is offering 60FPS cloud gaming: (you dial into a desktop in the cloud that has a good GPU)


Steam has Remote Play:


You can stream your Xbox games to your computer now:


You can stream your Playstation games to your computer now as well:


Even if you don't have an Xbox, you can play a big library of games from the cloud to your computer for a monthly fee using Xbox Game Pass online service:


Same for Playstation, even if you don't have a console, you can pay a monthly access fee to stream Playstation 2, 3, and 4 games from the cloud to your computer using the Playstation Now online service:

 
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tinpanalley

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2011
1,496
22
81
be able to hop on a vintage-OS VM for old-school gaming
I would love that. Guys this is all so much info, thank you for the help.
I've gone and downloaded VMware, seems easy enough. I'm running Windows XP on it.
I have a game that is really driving me nuts. And I remember it being super easy to play at the time, so it's not the game.
Basically what happens is that it installs and loads fine in the VMWare (even just in Windows 10 to be honest) but when it gets to the game itself the mouse starts moving all over the screen like the sensitivity is all out of whack. It's glued to the sides of the screen, but if you move very slowly you can get it to move inside. And also, in VMware the game runs in a smaller window.
Any ideas on this?
Thank you!!
 

mxnerd

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
6,799
1,103
126
The cost of WIndows Virtual Desktop is over $36,000 per month for 100 PC! That's not cheap at all!
 
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mxnerd

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
6,799
1,103
126
There are tutorials teaching you how to run WIndows games using Linux + Wine 5.0, but it seems most are for pysical machine, not VM.

 

mxnerd

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
6,799
1,103
126
I would love that. Guys this is all so much info, thank you for the help.
I've gone and downloaded VMware, seems easy enough. I'm running Windows XP on it.
I have a game that is really driving me nuts. And I remember it being super easy to play at the time, so it's not the game.
Basically what happens is that it installs and loads fine in the VMWare (even just in Windows 10 to be honest) but when it gets to the game itself the mouse starts moving all over the screen like the sensitivity is all out of whack. It's glued to the sides of the screen, but if you move very slowly you can get it to move inside. And also, in VMware the game runs in a smaller window.
Any ideas on this?
Thank you!!

Did you enable Acclerate 3D Graphics for VM?

You also need to install VMware Tools in each VM.
 

tinpanalley

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2011
1,496
22
81
Yeah. Accelerated graphics is on. VMware tools appears to be ln the latest version but gives me an error when I try updating, "could not find component on update server"
 

Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
1,695
136
As a professional luddite I didn't really run XP 32-bit ever. I ran 2000 instead, never had any software compatibility issues and I played games a lot more back then. I remember it fondly as my favorite version of Windows. I switched to XP-64 for a bit to use 4GB of ram before moving on to 7.

Ah, a fellow 2000 user. 2000 was excellent at gaming, and IMHO one of, if not the, best Windows Microsoft has ever put out. Those were indeed good times.

I was very sad when vendors dropped driver support for it.
 
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kn51

Senior member
Aug 16, 2012
706
123
106
As a professional luddite I didn't really run XP 32-bit ever. I ran 2000 instead, never had any software compatibility issues and I played games a lot more back then. I remember it fondly as my favorite version of Windows. I switched to XP-64 for a bit to use 4GB of ram before moving on to 7.

Yes, 2000 was great. Probably the best. Two versions...workstation and server. AD.

I was also an oddball and ran XP 64 bit edition. Drivers for that were fun.
 
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PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,754
599
126
What I'm hoping they'll do eventually is allow for GPU passthrough on desktop clients like VMware Workstation Pro. vSphere (server version of VMware) already does it, as does unRAID & others, but it'd be super-cool to have a second GPU & be able to tie it into a VM. So many scenarios:

1. Grab a cheap spare card for older 98 & XP games
2. Have a workstation Quadro GPU in for business stuff & a dedicated VM for gaming with like a GeForce GTX card
3. Have a family multi-player setup so say the parent could have a dedicated gaming rig & the kiddos could play on a Steam thin client on the living room TV
4. Use the dual CPU-integrated GPU (i.e. Intel or Ryzen) & then a dedicated GPU, so if you want to switch from playing local Steam to virtualized vintage games, you could run the host off the iGPU & the VM off the dGPU. This would be particularly useful for laptops, which already have a built-in software-switching system for the iGPU & dGPU combo setup, so there wouldn't have to be a physical cable swap or anything in that case.

...

Funny you should mention this. My next virtualization project is to build retro era VMs with some of my old hardware. I've done a lot of preliminary hardware testing. The goal is to have XP, 98 and...a long shot here, 3dfx DOS platforms.

I know nothing about Windows server for virtualization, I only use Windows for work and occasionally games now.

On Tesla and Grid: Never used them, the price to play is to high for my hobby projects. There's also intel GVT-g (time slices of iGPU for VMs) its basically free with an Intel iGPU.
But I lost interest in even that when I realized I could just take a mining splitter and install a bunch of $15 ebay GPUs in place of it while getting better performance and flexibility.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,754
599
126
Yes, 2000 was great. Probably the best. Two versions...workstation and server. AD.

I was also an oddball and ran XP 64 bit edition. Drivers for that were fun.

You know, I switched to XP 64 after vista came out. At that time almost everyone had 64-bit drivers out. I think a cheap usb modem was the only problem child I had.
 

kn51

Senior member
Aug 16, 2012
706
123
106
Yeah, I don't recall anything real bad about the driver situation but you had to do your homework. I'm amazed it existed to be honest. That had to have been quite a niche thing to try on your new CPUs at the time.
 

Dulanic

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2000
9,957
581
136
VM's are easy and simple to work with, just I recommend avoiding turning on Hyper-V or sandbox in windows 10. I've had a lot of issues there.
 
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