Simple Question

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Colt45
Well, I'm rational and atheist, so take a guess.

Actually, I don't think "pro-life" is necessarily a product of religion. Actually, the debate between pro-life and pro-choice is FAR more interesting when carried out by people with no connection to religion who are quite rational (rational, to a degree, automatically excludes religious arguments because they rely on faith rather than logic.) Thus, the first part of the debate is "is it okay to kill a human being" - that has a pretty simple answer. Then, the 2nd, and most important part of the debate: at what point between unfertilized egg and newborn does the fetus become a human being?

 

[manlymatt83]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Colt45
Well, I'm rational and atheist, so take a guess.

Actually, I don't think "pro-life" is necessarily a product of religion. Actually, the debate between pro-life and pro-choice is FAR more interesting when carried out by people with no connection to religion who are quite rational (rational, to a degree, automatically excludes religious arguments because they rely on faith rather than logic.) Thus, the first part of the debate is "is it okay to kill a human being" - that has a pretty simple answer. Then, the 2nd, and most important part of the debate: at what point between unfertilized egg and newborn does the fetus become a human being?

this

 

[Mr Pickles]

"Ska is banned, nobody listens to ska."

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: OdiN
I am aganst the murder of innocent life, so you can guess my stance.

I wasn't aware you were a vegetarian.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: m1ldslide1
How about spending all this time and energy promoting condom use and adoption? Otherwise this 'lifetime of experiences' to which you refer typically involves poverty, abuse, petty crime, felonies, and then more procreation to ensure that the cycle continues.

Oh wait, I forgot that promising abstinence to your mustached youth group leader is the only way to prevent pregnancy. :thumbsup:

Haha... what time and energy? We're chatting it up on a forum. Good try though.

I hate religion, as well.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: OdiN
I am aganst the murder of innocent life, so you can guess my stance.

I wasn't aware you were a vegetarian.

He said innocent life. Cows are causing global warming, so its either eat them or take them to the Hague for crimes against humanity. I, for one, will take my pepper-crusted filet.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
Then, the 2nd, and most important part of the debate: at what point between unfertilized egg and newborn does the fetus become a human being?

I'll throw in my 2 cents then leave the thread (I'm going on a quick vacation). Here is what I believe:

1) Yes, it is wrong to kill a human. Here is my definition of killing: "you are killing a human when it can live on its own and you prevent it from living." For example, if you shoot someone and that person dies, then you killed (you prevented it from living). Example #2, if you found a person who was fatally shot but clinging to life and you did nothing, you didn't kill him/her (he/she couldn't live on his/her own). The person who fired the bullet did the killing. You may have done a horrible thing, but you didn't kill.

2) No one should be forced to have a parasite leaching off of him/her. This is especially true if it puts the person's life at risk. A fetus is a leach. You can leave it inside a mother, and I hope you do, but you do not have to keep it there. There is a catch, you should not kill a human (see #1).

3) Hypotetically take the fetus out then wait and see what happens. If it survives, then it is wrong to kill it. If it dies, then god/nature killed it, not you.

There is your definition of when a fetus becomes a human being. That is, when it can survive on its own. If you abort it at or after that point, you are committing murder. If you abort it before that point, you are removing a leach which isn't committing murder.

I see no reason that we have to be forced to give massive medical care to help it survive, but if you want, you certainly can do so in the debate. It'll shift the date a few weeks.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Colt45
Well, I'm rational and atheist, so take a guess.

Actually, I don't think "pro-life" is necessarily a product of religion. Actually, the debate between pro-life and pro-choice is FAR more interesting when carried out by people with no connection to religion who are quite rational (rational, to a degree, automatically excludes religious arguments because they rely on faith rather than logic.) Thus, the first part of the debate is "is it okay to kill a human being" - that has a pretty simple answer. Then, the 2nd, and most important part of the debate: at what point between unfertilized egg and newborn does the fetus become a human being?

That's not really such a simple answer. Obviously there are circumstances where it's acceptable to kill a human (war, self-defense, capital punishment, I don't like his face).

 

[Ns1]

Why you would ever want to bring an unwanted child into this world is completely beyond me, so prochoice

 

[Vehemence]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

That's not really such a simple answer. Obviously there are circumstances where it's acceptable to kill a human (war, self-defense, capital punishment, I don't like his face, he spilled wine all over my $200 jeans).

Fix'd

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: DrPizza
Then, the 2nd, and most important part of the debate: at what point between unfertilized egg and newborn does the fetus become a human being?

I'll throw in my 2 cents then leave the thread (I'm going on a quick vacation). Here is what I believe:

1) Yes, it is wrong to kill a human. Here is my definition of killing: "you are killing a human when it can live on its own and you prevent it from living." For example, if you shoot someone and that person dies, then you killed (you prevented it from living). Example #2, if you found a person who was fatally shot but clinging to life and you did nothing, you didn't kill him/her (he/she couldn't live on his/her own). The person who fired the bullet did the killing. You may have done a horrible thing, but you didn't kill.

2) No one should be forced to have a parasite leaching off of him/her. This is especially true if it puts the person's life at risk. A fetus is a leach. You can leave it inside a mother, and I hope you do, but you do not have to keep it there. There is a catch, you should not kill a human (see #1).

3) Hypotetically take the fetus out then wait and see what happens. If it survives, then it is wrong to kill it. If it dies, then god/nature killed it, not you.

There is your definition of when a fetus becomes a human being. That is, when it can survive on its own. If you abort it at or after that point, you are committing murder. If you abort it before that point, you are removing a leach which isn't committing murder.

I see no reason that we have to be forced to give massive medical care to help it survive, but if you want, you certainly can do so in the debate. It'll shift the date a few weeks.

Birth a baby, set it on the bed next to you, and don't move. Just wait, watching your baby. Don't interact with it at all. Don't feed it. Don't burp it. Don't touch it. Don't talk to it.

See how long it lives.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: OdiN
I am aganst the murder of innocent life, so you can guess my stance.

I wasn't aware you were a vegetarian.

He said innocent life. Cows are causing global warming, so its either eat them or take them to the Hague for crimes against humanity. I, for one, will take my pepper-crusted filet.

What about chicken? Fish? Eggs?!? HE'S DEVOURING THE UNBORN CHICKEN BABIES WITH TABASCO SAUCE FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: dNor

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

That's not really such a simple answer. Obviously there are circumstances where it's acceptable to kill a human (war, self-defense, capital punishment, I don't like his face, he spilled wine all over my $200 jeans).

Fix'd

Well, that would typically lead to me not liking his face.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Nik
Birth a baby, set it on the bed next to you, and don't move. Just wait, watching your baby. Don't interact with it at all. Don't feed it. Don't burp it. Don't touch it. Don't talk to it.

See how long it lives.

It'll live on its own for quite some time. Long enough for you to legally neglect it. And you should be charged with a crime for neglect.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Nik
Birth a baby, set it on the bed next to you, and don't move. Just wait, watching your baby. Don't interact with it at all. Don't feed it. Don't burp it. Don't touch it. Don't talk to it.

See how long it lives.

It'll live on its own for quite some time. Long enough for you to legally neglect it. And you should be charged with a crime for neglect.

But it can't survive on it's own so technically it isn't alive according to your rules. Neglecting a leach isn't a crime.

 

[xanis]

Originally posted by: Ns1
Why you would ever want to bring an unwanted child into this world is completely beyond me, so prochoice

Why do you assume the child is unwanted? Just because the birth parents don't want the child doesn't mean that someone, somewhere doesn't either. It's called adoption, and a lot of adopted kids are loved just as much as those that have their birth parents.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Nik
But it can't survive on it's own so technically it isn't alive according to your rules. Neglecting a leach isn't a crime.

It certainly can live on its own. You try it. It'll live for hours/days.

Don't try poking stupid holes into my simple theory. I can take the time to make stupid exceptions and write them out explicitly (ie don't give birth in outer space since the baby can't breathe...), but all that does is to spin wheels and detract from the real debate. It doesn't affect the point I made, nor the date of when it is human.

Otherwise your argument is like this: take a prisoner, put him in jail, don't feed him, and it isn't killing him. Clearly that is not my point, you you know it. You can't neglect someone in your care.

 

[sactoking]

I am anti-hypocrisy. So long as killing a pregnant woman is considered double murder or murder and infanticide or whatever, abortion should be illegal.

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: Xanis

Originally posted by: Ns1
Why you would ever want to bring an unwanted child into this world is completely beyond me, so prochoice

Why do you assume the child is unwanted? Just because the birth parents don't want the child doesn't mean that someone, somewhere doesn't either. It's called adoption, and a lot of adopted kids are loved just as much as those that have their birth parents.

Why take that chance? There are plenty of OTHER kids up for adoption you know. No need to add another one to that pool.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Nik
But it can't survive on it's own so technically it isn't alive according to your rules. Neglecting a leach isn't a crime.

It certainly can live on its own. You try it. It'll live for hours/days.

So you should have clarified that it transforms from leach to human being after a few hours? or after a few days? When does it transform from one to the other?

Don't try poking stupid holes into my simple theory. I can take the time to make stupid exceptions and write them out explicitly (ie don't give birth in outer space since the baby can't breathe...), but all that does is to spin wheels and detract from the real debate. It doesn't affect the point I made, nor the date of when it is human.

Your stupid theory has simple holes. That's all there is to it. The moment the two haploid cells come together to form a diploid cell, it's a life. A human life. A pure, innocent, natural human life that should be defended at all costs.

 

[Train]

How is abortion 100% a woman's choice but paying child support is 0% father's choice? No logic there.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Nik
So you should have clarified that it transforms from leach to human being after a few hours? or after a few days? When does it transform from one to the other?

No, it is human the instant it can live on its own (in normal situations where it isn't neglected, murdered by other people, abducted by aliens, thrown into a black hole, etc.) Do I really need to make any more silly exceptions for you? There is no transformation.

Your stupid theory has simple holes. That's all there is to it. The moment the two haploid cells come together to form a diploid cell, it's a life. A human life. A pure, innocent, natural human life that should be defended at all costs.

Why should it be defended? Why should I just take your definition of human life as gospel truth? Why isn't it before the cells come together? Why isn't a skin cell human life? Why shouldn't I charge you with murder every time you drop a living cell with all the human DNA? Etc.

 

[AMCRambler]

Originally posted by: mjuszczak
What are you?

Sorry I clicked this thread...

 

[sourceninja]

I voted pro-life, I do not want my life screwed up by some drunken mistake. Nor do I want to ruin the life of some poor kid I do not want.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: sourceninja
I voted pro-life, I do not want my life screwed up by some drunken mistake. Nor do I want to ruin the life of some poor kid I do not want.

i don't think you know what "pro-life" means.