Signing statements...Obama issues first...

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Link

Obama: "I'm going to do less of what both democrats and republicans claimed was unconstitutional" (my words)

I'll forgoe the change statements and leave them to someone else :)

There was an old thread on this when Specter sued Bush, don't know what ever came of that lawsuit, I'll see if I can find it. edit: Here it is: P&N Thread
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
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This wasn't his bill - he said he would reign them in, that's 5 for O.

1600 for Bush.

lolchange.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
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Originally posted by: ayabe
This wasn't his bill - he said he would reign them in, that's 5 for O.

1600 for Bush.

lolchange.
lolpartisanhack

Or to quote Legendkiller from the last thread:
"I still have yet to figure out why it's OK for one politician to do something wrong by claiming somebody else did it."


From the article:
"declaring five provisions in the spending bill to be unconstitutional and nonbinding, including one aimed at preventing punishment of whistleblowers."


from the old article:
"American Bar Association task force concluded that by attaching conditions to legislation, the president has sidestepped his constitutional duty to either sign a bill, veto it, or take no action."
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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Originally posted by: ayabe
This wasn't his bill - he said he would reign them in, that's 5 for O.

1600 for Bush.

lolchange.

Any bill he signs is his bill. Lets remember the bill grew 8% since its original form back in Oct.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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Signing staements on a bill amount to an attempt at a line item veto.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Link

Obama: "I'm going to do less of what both democrats and republicans claimed was unconstitutional" (my words)

I'll forgoe the change statements and leave them to someone else :)

There was an old thread on this when Specter sued Bush, don't know what ever came of that lawsuit, I'll see if I can find it. edit: Here it is: P&N Thread

So have you waited long enough to determine if Obama (A) reduces the number of signing statements from Bush-era levels? (B) issues guidelines aimed at reducing earmarks in spending bills and then carries it out, lowering the number and amount of said earmarks?

Something tells me you haven't . . .
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
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Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: ayabe
This wasn't his bill - he said he would reign them in, that's 5 for O.

1600 for Bush.

lolchange.

Any bill he signs is his bill. Lets remember the bill grew 8% since its original form back in Oct.

Or he could have let the gov shut down by vetoing it.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: ayabe
This wasn't his bill - he said he would reign them in, that's 5 for O.

1600 for Bush.

lolchange.

Any bill he signs is his bill. Lets remember the bill grew 8% since its original form back in Oct.

Or he could have let the gov shut down by vetoing it.

Negative; they would have passed a continuing resolution. Sounds like a solid outcome.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
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Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: ayabe
This wasn't his bill - he said he would reign them in, that's 5 for O.

1600 for Bush.

lolchange.
lolpartisanhack

Or to quote Legendkiller from the last thread:
"I still have yet to figure out why it's OK for one politician to do something wrong by claiming somebody else did it."


From the article:
"declaring five provisions in the spending bill to be unconstitutional and nonbinding, including one aimed at preventing punishment of whistleblowers."


from the old article:
"American Bar Association task force concluded that by attaching conditions to legislation, the president has sidestepped his constitutional duty to either sign a bill, veto it, or take no action."

Hack?

From your fucking OP:

"Mr. Obama has ordered a review of his predecessor's signing statements and said he would rein in the practice."

This is 5 in a bill he had to pass, no time to haggle with Congress.

So what is your definition of reigning in? 0? Ever. Not realistic.

I'm bringing Bush in because the WSJ did, in the OP, oh and it was 1200 not 1600 my mistake.

They won't even reveal what it is he took out, but I guarantee it wasn't something like preserving the right to torture like Bush did.

 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: alchemize
Link

Obama: "I'm going to do less of what both democrats and republicans claimed was unconstitutional" (my words)

I'll forgoe the change statements and leave them to someone else :)

There was an old thread on this when Specter sued Bush, don't know what ever came of that lawsuit, I'll see if I can find it. edit: Here it is: P&N Thread

So have you waited long enough to determine if Obama (A) reduces the number of signing statements from Bush-era levels? (B) issues guidelines aimed at reducing earmarks in spending bills and then carries it out, lowering the number and amount of said earmarks?

Something tells me you haven't . . .
So if Obama performs less torture, less renditions, kills fewer innocents in pakistan, spies on fewer citizens, spreads less corporate welfare (but triples the budget deficit), and performs less constitutionally questionable signing statements, you're good? ;)
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: ayabe
This wasn't his bill - he said he would reign them in, that's 5 for O.

1600 for Bush.

lolchange.

Any bill he signs is his bill. Lets remember the bill grew 8% since its original form back in Oct.

Or he could have let the gov shut down by vetoing it.

Yes, again shows it is "his" bill. Bush didnt come out of retirement to veto or sign this bill.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
"We're having a repeat of what Democrats bitterly complained about under President Bush," said Sen. Arlen Specter (R., Pa.), who drafted legislation to nullify Mr. Bush's signing statements.

And if any of you care to go back and see what many people wrote about GWB's 'signing statements' you will discover that not only were people upset about GWB's use of 'signing statements' people were cognizant of the fact that GWB was setting a dangerous precedent for future Presidents to continue the practice.

It is not entirely unbelievable that Obama will use "signing statements" in the same way that GWB did. And that is not to say Obama is right in doing so....but he is using the President Powers that were carved out by his predecessors. I for one hope he uses these powers to do more good than harm...but that is the chance we take isnt it...?

If you don't like it, I say too too bad. If Arlene Specter has a problem with Obama using 'signing statements' like GWB did then he should have done something about it back when GWB was using 'signing statements' to circumvent or change practically every damn bill that congress sent to his desk! We can't have the President sit in office and, by virtue of a 'signing statement', decide what is constitutional and what isn't and then establish statute by what sermounts to an "editorial" of the law by the President. that is the fundamental challenge that these 'signing statements' make upon our very precious "Separation of Powers" in this country.

I think if you boil down this issue, you will see that many on the 'right' are simply angered that Obama, by virtue of a 'signing statement' nullified all of GWBs previous 'signing statements'....by requiring all of GWBs 'signing statements' to go before the AG office for review.

I don't think I have a problem with that particular 'signing statement.' If the end result is rolling back damage done by GWB, I don't have a problem with that at all.

Now since Specter and every other GOP fumdvck out there is complaining....sorry, but all I have to offer is some cheese for your whine. I will say that I agree with Specter. And he has consistently been on the right side of this argument even back when GWB was in office. Unfortunately back when his party was in the White House there was nothing fundamentally done by congress to keep these Presidential Powers in check...and now we find exactly what the consequences are of that inaction.

You want to talk about hope? I "Hope" that Obama doesn't make a fool out of himself by using his Presidential Powers to override our 3 branches of government ala GWB. I "hope" he does positive works with his Presidential Powers...

?There is no doubt that the practice of issuing such statements can be abused,? Obama?s directive said. ?Constitutional signing statements should not be use to suggest that the President will disregard statutory requirements on the basis of policy disagreements.?

Politico <--another article on the subject. It details some of the dangers of the utilization of these 'signing statements.'



 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: ayabe
Or he could have let the gov shut down by vetoing it.
Good. That's what he should have done.

taken into the context of the current hysteria over the economy no I don't think he should have done that.

Not when the government is the only one paying its bills and employing people. Generally speaking of course.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
So if Obama performs less torture, less renditions, kills fewer innocents in pakistan, spies on fewer citizens, spreads less corporate welfare (but triples the budget deficit), and performs less constitutionally questionable signing statements, you're good? ;)
More or less. Let me put it this way:

None > Less > The Same
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: ayabe
This wasn't his bill - he said he would reign them in, that's 5 for O.

1600 for Bush.

lolchange.

Any bill he signs is his bill. Lets remember the bill grew 8% since its original form back in Oct.

Or he could have let the gov shut down by vetoing it.

Yes, again shows it is "his" bill. Bush didnt come out of retirement to veto or sign this bill.

And if he had you guys would be going full nuclear over that as well, followed by more hate for Pelosi and Reid for wasting more time on administrative BS when we're in the middle of chaos.

So it's a lose-lose again on this issue, as with pretty much everything. You guys won't give him a fair shot, on anything, ever.

 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: alchemize
Link

Obama: "I'm going to do less of what both democrats and republicans claimed was unconstitutional" (my words)

I'll forgoe the change statements and leave them to someone else :)

There was an old thread on this when Specter sued Bush, don't know what ever came of that lawsuit, I'll see if I can find it. edit: Here it is: P&N Thread

So have you waited long enough to determine if Obama (A) reduces the number of signing statements from Bush-era levels? (B) issues guidelines aimed at reducing earmarks in spending bills and then carries it out, lowering the number and amount of said earmarks?

Something tells me you haven't . . .
So if Obama performs less torture, less renditions, kills fewer innocents in pakistan, spies on fewer citizens, spreads less corporate welfare (but triples the budget deficit), and performs less constitutionally questionable signing statements, you're good? ;)


You pick two sentences out of an article about something else, make an entire thread about it, then don't really have any beef to BBQ with.

Call me back when Obama issues a signing statement that allows any of those things.

He also didn't triple the deficit, you're on hack overdrive today buddy. I'm thoroughly disappointed.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: alchemize
Link

Obama: "I'm going to do less of what both democrats and republicans claimed was unconstitutional" (my words)

I'll forgoe the change statements and leave them to someone else :)

There was an old thread on this when Specter sued Bush, don't know what ever came of that lawsuit, I'll see if I can find it. edit: Here it is: P&N Thread

So have you waited long enough to determine if Obama (A) reduces the number of signing statements from Bush-era levels? (B) issues guidelines aimed at reducing earmarks in spending bills and then carries it out, lowering the number and amount of said earmarks?

Something tells me you haven't . . .
So if Obama performs less torture, less renditions, kills fewer innocents in pakistan, spies on fewer citizens, spreads less corporate welfare (but triples the budget deficit), and performs less constitutionally questionable signing statements, you're good? ;)


You pick two sentences out of an article about something else, make an entire thread about it, then don't really have any beef to BBQ with.

Call me back when Obama issues a signing statement that allows any of those things.

He also didn't triple the deficit, you're on hack overdrive today buddy. I'm thoroughly disappointed.
Doh! You're right, he didn't triple it. He more than tripled it :)

2008 $459b
2009 $1,752b

source

 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
All this garbage about "it isn't my bill" only shows he has no backbone. I made up my mind that if he signed it, I was through supporting him as a president.
The government would not have shut down. Congress could have passed a bill in hours that would have extended the government running for another couple weeks. It would have given everyone time to decipher the bill and that is what they didn't want. They keep passing this crap so fast that nobody has a chance to read it. The same thing Bush did.

Obama is nothing more than Pelosi's dog on a leash.
 

quest55720

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2004
1,339
0
0
Originally posted by: Modelworks
All this garbage about "it isn't my bill" only shows he has no backbone. I made up my mind that if he signed it, I was through supporting him as a president.
The government would not have shut down. Congress could have passed a bill in hours that would have extended the government running for another couple weeks. It would have given everyone time to decipher the bill and that is what they didn't want. They keep passing this crap so fast that nobody has a chance to read it. The same thing Bush did.

Obama is nothing more than Pelosi's dog on a leash.

I warned you guys before the election that Obama had no backbone and Pelosi/Reid would be running the show. Obama has never stood up to his party like he is going to start now. He will just be a rubber stamp for what ever Pelosi wants done.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
Originally posted by: quest55720
Originally posted by: Modelworks
All this garbage about "it isn't my bill" only shows he has no backbone. I made up my mind that if he signed it, I was through supporting him as a president.
The government would not have shut down. Congress could have passed a bill in hours that would have extended the government running for another couple weeks. It would have given everyone time to decipher the bill and that is what they didn't want. They keep passing this crap so fast that nobody has a chance to read it. The same thing Bush did.

Obama is nothing more than Pelosi's dog on a leash.

I warned you guys before the election that Obama had no backbone and Pelosi/Reid would be running the show. Obama has never stood up to his party like he is going to start now. He will just be a rubber stamp for what ever Pelosi wants done.

In your opinion(s)
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: Modelworks
All this garbage about "it isn't my bill" only shows he has no backbone. I made up my mind that if he signed it, I was through supporting him as a president.
The government would not have shut down. Congress could have passed a bill in hours that would have extended the government running for another couple weeks. It would have given everyone time to decipher the bill and that is what they didn't want. They keep passing this crap so fast that nobody has a chance to read it. The same thing Bush did.

Obama is nothing more than Pelosi's dog on a leash.
Just spending oodles of money on different things. Bush kept his special interests happy by spending on war and the rich, now Obama's giving his handouts to the poor, unions and his special interests. It's funny, in a sad way, to watch all these who excoriated Bush on all these things now try and explain it all away when Obama does it...and worse.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: alchemize
Link

Obama: "I'm going to do less of what both democrats and republicans claimed was unconstitutional" (my words)

I'll forgoe the change statements and leave them to someone else :)

There was an old thread on this when Specter sued Bush, don't know what ever came of that lawsuit, I'll see if I can find it. edit: Here it is: P&N Thread

So have you waited long enough to determine if Obama (A) reduces the number of signing statements from Bush-era levels? (B) issues guidelines aimed at reducing earmarks in spending bills and then carries it out, lowering the number and amount of said earmarks?

Something tells me you haven't . . .
So if Obama performs less torture, less renditions, kills fewer innocents in pakistan, spies on fewer citizens, spreads less corporate welfare (but triples the budget deficit), and performs less constitutionally questionable signing statements, you're good? ;)


You pick two sentences out of an article about something else, make an entire thread about it, then don't really have any beef to BBQ with.

Call me back when Obama issues a signing statement that allows any of those things.

He also didn't triple the deficit, you're on hack overdrive today buddy. I'm thoroughly disappointed.
Doh! You're right, he didn't triple it. He more than tripled it :)

2008 $459b
2009 $1,752b

source

/crickets...
 

BMW540I6speed

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2005
1,055
0
0
George W. Bush didn't invent signing statements, and the fact that he used them at all is really not the issue. The issue is that he used them many times more than any previous president. So, tying Obama to Bush because he's used one of them shows an ignorance of presidential history. "Look, look!..Obama is just like Bush!.

I'm not in favor of signing statements, but when Congress writes in supervisory authority over Cabinet-level spending that isn't allocated to them, how do you handle it? If they want more authority, they need to write the legislation and have it vetted Constitutionally.

Bush used signing statements to build more authority for himself. Obama is using one to prevent Congress from acting like Bush. Obama is defending constitutional separation of powers, not adding more powers to the executive branch.

This signing statement appears to be a message from the Executive Branch that it will not adhere to "legislative vetos". A legislative veto is where Congress passes a law, the Executive signs, but part of the law is a requirement that Congress has authority to overturn or direct executive action.

The language of Obama's signing statement says "numerous provisions" of the law "purport to condition the authority of officers" to spend money "on the approval of congressional authority." Obama appears to be saying that Congress passed the law, he's signing it, and now Congress doesn't get a say as to how he executes the law.

This type of signing statement is vastly different in nature and scope than Bush signing statements, whereby Bush, upon signing a measure passed by Congress, stated his intention that he would not execute the law as written, contrary to his obligation as the executive.

The most best example of this is occured Bush signed into law the ban on torture. He attached a signing statement which said he would "construe [the law] in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President ... as Commander in Chief." Recent memos released in the last of couple weeks have revealed that Bush interpretated this alleged "constitutional authority" as unfettered and without limit. Unlike the Congressional veto, there is no Supreme Court precedent that would back any interpretation of law in this manner.

Perhaps the best question is to ask, "is the signing statement consistent with the Constitution?" In Obama's case, he is saying the President can ignore a portion of a law that gives Congress executive authority. In Bush's case, he was saying the President has unlimited authority as Commander-in-Chief and that authority gives him the right to bypass laws as he chooses.